From Rome to Christ

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[caww]

Cronos...what part of end of discussion didn’t you get...drop it.

[thesaleboat]

Yeah, that is what I am saying, I wouldn’t mind talkin’ to you about our beliefs.

[Running On Empty]

“....tends to tell me you’re lonely and just want conversation or something else entirely.”

While we could agree that Cronos has made his point somewhat more than adequately, I think you are making it quite personal to say he’s “lonely”. (something you say his posts “tend to tell you”)

If pursuing a point—however redundantly-—”tends to tell” you that a given poster is “lonely” or “just wants conversation or something else”, then I can offer the names of numerous posters whose unbiquitous posts on this forum would “tend to tell you” that they, too, “are lonely or just wanting conversation-—or something else”.

I believe it’s a better thing to not to post comments that “tend to” seem, IMHO, quite personal.

[thesaleboat]

Amen.

[Cronos]

It's ok to condemn a man with no proof, then? To make it that it is ok to say a woman or a man is guilty until proven innocent?

To destroy a person's life and say "oh, it's ok, she can move somewhere else and restart" -- good heavens, caww, this is America.

[metmom]

If the man has been declared not guilty by the courts, then anyone who continues to condemn him is wrong, but we can’t control the actions of others. They are entitled to believe what they want to believe and have their opinion.

OTOH, just because the guy was declared not guilty, doesn’t mean he is either. He could be as guilty as sin.

Parents need to be vigilant about who their children associate with and men do need to be responsible enough to not allow themselves get into situations where they could be accused of something like that.

In an ideal world, that wouldn’t be necessary. I don’t know if you’ve noticed lately, but this is not an ideal world. Life is what it is and sometimes rots. Well, lots of times. You live with it and do what you have to.

[metmom]

People need to get over the idea that they are owed a perfect, trouble free life.

Entitlement mentality has infiltrated almost every level of society and every aspect of our lives.

[Cronos]

"I still say if the guy can’t deal with the fallout then he needs to move..."

Fallout from being falsely accused... ok. if you hold to guilty until proven innocent, we'll leave it at that. end of discussion as you say

[Cronos]

you mean it’s ok to accuse someone verbally and put them to trial? Destroy a person’s life by slander?

[Running On Empty]

This (accusing with slander) is the sin of calumny and it is serious sin, indeed.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

dangus, from your post.

Yes, they shall receive forgiveness THROUGH HIS NAME. Meaning, they will
be forgiven in the name of Christ. Who dares speak in the name of
Christ? Only he who does so not from his own will, but who is granted
such authority to do so. And who is that? Any Christian? No, for one
Christian may forgive sins, while another retains them, making the
promise of Christ a logical contradiction. Only one who speaks for
Christ, anointed with the specific authority to do so, can remit or
forgive sins.

This is the foundation of the Catholic religion. Jesus gave the apostle commands, gifts, powers or abilities for them alone. Not to all believers.

Would you please show us where Jesus anointed with the specific authority to do so you speak of only to the apostles?

May God, our Father, lead us to His truth, BVB

 

[dangus]

The question is, when did he grant such authority to anyone BUT his apostles? How can you grant one person the authority to make free, and another person the same authority to bind? That’s nonsensical. Jesus gave this authority to Peter, and collectively, to his apostles. They, then, delegated this authority to their successors, and appointed episcopi. With a hierarchy, each episcopus (bishop) has authority within a certain see (jurisdiction); Without a hierarchy, there is no defined jurisdiction. Without a defined jurisdiction, you can have no authority.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

 

The simple answer is when Jesus was asked to teach us to pray in Matthew 6:8-14.

⁸ “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. ⁹ In this manner, therefore, pray:

      Our Father in heaven,
      Hallowed be Your name.
       ¹⁰ Your kingdom come.
      Your will be done
      On earth as it is in heaven.
       ¹¹ Give us this day our daily bread.
       ¹² And forgive us our debts,
      As we forgive our debtors.
       ¹³ And do not lead us into temptation,
      But deliver us from the evil one.
      For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.<sup>[c]

14</sup> “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. ¹⁵ But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Binding and loosing is not a power or authority one possesses. It is the result of our actions. 

We loose our sins against our Heavenly Father by forgiving the sins of a brother against us. We keep them bound when we don't forgive.

If I ask you to forgive a sin I have committed against you, and you comply, we are both loosed of that sin. Jesus explains in Matthew 18

 

• ¹⁵Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

  This is one human who has sinned against anther asking that brother for forgiveness.

   ¹⁶But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

  Here that same brother is told to take one or two more. No mention of them being any more than a brother or sister in Christ.

   ¹⁷And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

  Here he is told to take it before the church, his local group of brothers and sisters in Christ. The church has no duty other than being a witness that he tried to get the other brother to forgive him. The church forgives no one because they weren't the ones being asked to forgive. The brother has done all he can so that sin is loosed from him even though the other brother didn't forgive him. He is no longer responsible for it. The unforgiving brother has his sins against God bound by his un forgiveness

   ¹⁸Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Notice Jesus ends with binding and loosing in context. You have to forgive to be forgiven.

Only the brother who is sinned against has the ability to forgive the sin. He is the only one whose sins against God are bound as a consequence of his non forgiveness. Nowhere does Jesus give any authority to the church.

Let's look at what Jesus told Peter about forgiving sins.

•  

  ²¹Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

  Peter asks Jesus how many times he has to forgive a brother who sins against him, Peter. Brother forgiving brother. 

   ²²Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

I may have missed it but this looks to me like Jesus told Peter he had to forgive a brother who sinned against him, Peter. Not a special gift but a command.

I am still waiting for someone to show me where Jesus specifically gave a man the ability to forgive another man's sin against God for God. Maybe you would be so kind.

May God the Father lead us to His truth, BVB    

 

[RnMomof7]

Amen

[metmom]

Ping to great post.

Thanks.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

metmom, thank you for the response and ping. As you see, dangus hasn’t had the courtesy, or the ability, to give an answer. One more I can add to my growing list of those who make the claim of Peter’s and the apostles authority but can’t prove it with Jesus’s words.

Verse 16 is the scripture they use to say Jesus gave authority to the church to forgive sins. I got the same non answer to a post about a week ago where they claimed that in the article.

dangus posted basically the same thing to RnMomof7’s post Mary: Mother of God.

What scares me the most is how ignorant Catholics are about forgiving sins and how it binds their sins. They think only the apostles could bind and loose.

[JLLH]

Amen!