Nauvoo City Council’s minutes of 1840s provide chaos, contention and lies [Lds' Smith Shenanigans]

Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | Jan. 4, 2012 | Doug Gibson

[dragonblustar]

Any religion can be the target of unfair demagoguery by focusing on people or events that were highly unsavory, in that religions history.

All right then look to the bible itself and compare that to the book of Mormon. The problem with Mormonism is that its trying to claim it is Christian when it is not. Christians have the right to disprove this cult.

Ignoring this is giving a pass to a cult.

without slandering

What the heck do you think they do to Jesus and God every day? They claim that God was once man, that Jesus is brothers with Satan, the virgin birth did not take place.....etc. Are we suppose to ignore that and just let them roll over Christianity and take over with their lies?

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Unless you think mobs aren’t evil, more or less by definition.****

From what I’ve read, many, not all, in that mob were former Mormons who realized what Smith really was, a fake.

[Colofornian]

rancor

Speaking of rancor, how's it going with your two ex-wives?

Have an extremely nice day?

[Colofornian]

200 armed men in a mob bent on murder should be shot. As often as possible.

And you know exactly how many armed men there were how?

And you absolutely know that NONE of these armed men were prison guards who knew Smith had been weaponized how?

Not murdered by a mob in cahoots with those who were supposed to be protecting him.

Well, I agree...

#1...the jack Mormon sheriff charged with protecting Smith should have done his duty and not be so easily overrun (without a fight)

#2...Unless, of course, the jack Mormon sheriff already knew that two guns had been smuggled into Smith and didn't want to risk his own harm -- or anyone in his employ -- of trying to confiscate those weapons. And if that was the case, no wonder he let the mob take on an armed prisoner...

I imagine if any of that mob heard about the guns having been smuggled into Smith that they felt justified in storming his room.

Or do you advocate that prisoners with a loaded weapon in any prison today not be confronted with an armed response?

Seems to me you're saying that if a prisoner today knows he is a target of say -- another prisoner -- who has been weaponized...that it's "OK" for that prisoner to likewise become weaponized in self-defense.

Is that what you advocate for our prison system today?

[reaganaut]

The LDS Church Library no longer allows access to the Nauvoo City Council and High Council minutes from 1839 to 1845.

- - - - -
The big question here is WHY are they no longer allowing it? What are they hiding?

[reaganaut]

First, we were doing this long before Romney so it isn’t just about him.

Second, Romney is a product of Mormon culture, not contrary to it.

Third, how much do you REALLY know about Mormonism? I used to be Mormon and know a great deal. The LDS church lies to its members, can you name another church that does that?

[reaganaut]

I have heard that as well. Also, there is some evidence that Smith thought at least part of the mob outside was there to break him out of jail and that he recognized a few of them because he used the Masonic signal of distress before falling out the window.

If Smith really thought that the Governor would protect him, why did he have 2 guns (and some liquor) smuggled in?

[Colofornian]

There is plenty of opportunity to honestly disagree with Romney and others based on their positions regarding economic, social and geo political issues, without slandering an entire group of people.

Have you EVER in your life contacted the Mormon church with the same request? (No? Why not?)

You do realize, don't you, that the Mormon church routinely -- as in daily -- slanders ALL Christians and all Christian churches?

And their voice and volume is significantly broader and higher than any mere posts on one Web site here.

Voice: The Lds church has 52,000 missionaries out and about. Since the 1950s, one of the top four messages of these missionaries -- since implemented by then "prophet" David McKay -- was to preach about the so-called "universal apostasy" of all Christians and all Christian denominations past and present.

Muslims reference Christians as "infidels"; no different than Mormons slandering Christians as "apostates."

Volume: This message about us as "apostates" goes out online, in their books & mags & curricula, on campus, etc.

These are not simply generic messages; the Lds church specifically references Christian sects in slandering 100% of our creeds as an alleged "abomination." And this isn't just one Mormon leader's opinion uttered somewhere; it's in "stone" as part of Mormon "scripture." (why don't you google Joseph Smith - History - vv. 18-19 in the Pearl of Great Price in order to educate yourself on the daily slander of the Mormon church upon Christian denominations?)

Mormons do this political season out and political season in...and all days in between.

To borrow from your language, there is plenty of opportunity for Mormons to honestly disagree with Christian sects without villainizing us in a scorched earth approach as 100% apostates who are 100% "corrupt" (their word) who is a "church of the devil" (Mormon conclusion about us) who embrace 100% abominable creeds.

But...what? No mention of your contact with the Lds church asking for some "cease fire" of this daily slander? Why not?

Inquiring minds want to know why you come across as a two-faced hypocrite? So prove me wrong here and show me your track record of trying to rein in the Mormon church as some kind of "calming influence" approaching both sides. Because until you do that, your concern about a few online "pea shooters" in comparison to the $billion Lds Inc. rings a wee bit hollow in actualized discernment.

[Colofornian]

Any religion can be the target of unfair demagoguery by focusing on people or events that were highly unsavory, in that religions history

Except that I've reviewed hundreds of Lds-written books re: "history" and hundreds more articles on Mormon history...and NONE of them regard what Smith & the Nauvoo City Council toward the Expositor as "unsavory."

If they don't regard it as "unsavory," then what? We just let them have their monuments and museums presenting revised history as they see fit?

No opposition opinions or expressions allowed, lest you get a poster named Awgie frowning upon you?

Well, I guess if you don't like it, you can let the spirit of Mormonism carry you to get a mob and go destroy FR -- like the Nauvoo Expositor's critiques of Mormonism were similarly silenced.

I stand by what I said in post #1 -- that Mormons to this day do not frame what happened under Joseph Smith's control as a "negative" criminal act. Therefore they are actually part of the anarchy problem -- rather than just being perceived "victims" of it.

Oh...and btw...I REALLY want you to prove you're NOT hypocritical...or inconsistent...So please tell us how you e-mailed Doug Gibson -- the author of this article -- and provide your same frowning to him.

Since Gibson himself is Mormon, a fact that seemed somehow to have been lost upon you, you can accuse a Mormon of engaging in "unfair demoguery" vs. Mormons...especially since Gibson's latest column criticizes Romney...showing that this columnist, too, ventures back & forth 'tween the political and the religious dimensions.

[Elsie]

However, I think it is unfair to call his murder a "gun battle," which implies something resembling even odds and possibly intention.

And I do not like his death being called a MURDER.

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"Joseph; I advise you not to go to that jail."

 

"Darn gnats!!"

 

 

"Joseph; I'm telling you to not to go to that jail."

 

"Flies are BAD today!!"

 

 

"Joseph; It ain't gonna be pretty if you ignore me and go to that jail!"

 

"Crummy mosquitos are EVERYWHERE!!!"

 

 

"Joseph!  Do NOT go to that jail!"

 

"And those bedbugs really savaged me last night, too!"

 

 

"JOSEPH!!  Wake up boy!   Do Not Go To That JAIL!!!"

 

"All right Sheriff - here I am, so give me a nice room while my Lawyer, my Advocate, my Comforter presents the LAW to the Judge and I am VINDICATED!!!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheOldLady]

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[Elsie]

The jail where he was held was stormed by about 200 armed men, who were in cahoots with the supposed guards.

Do you think the fact that the Nauvoo Legion had many MORE men than this had ANYthing to do with it?

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The parades and other activities of the legion—which included mock battles—attracted visitors from near and far. Indeed, the legion became so popular that many non-Mormons joined the ranks. At its peak, it is said to have numbered 5,000 men, the largest such body in Illinois.

 

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/1831_1844/nauvoo_legion_eom.htm

[Elsie]

I am personally uncomfortable with wholesale attacks against an entire religion in a transparent attempt to smear Romney.

Yeah! That DOES tend to gall a fellow's crotch!

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Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

 

 

 

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

[Elsie]

Did Joe reap what he had sown?

JESUS: Hey Smith!       Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?

JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?

JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?

JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!

JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.

JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!

JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.

JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.

JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?

JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)

JESUS: That's it.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: Nah - it was right.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.

JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.

JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!

JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?

JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....

JESUS: What did you say?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.

JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.

JESUS: No...

JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?

JESUS: Nope.

JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!

JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: No; it wasn't.

JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?

JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?

JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.

JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly FAITHbook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.

JOSEPH SMITH: But.... 

[Sherman Logan]

And I do not like his death being called a MURDER.

Glad to know a freeper approves of lynching as a method of justice. A very conservative position.

/s

Would you care to explain where this IL lawyer of the time and area was wrong in his opinion of mobocracy as a huge danger to the Republic?

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/lyceum.htm

[Godzilla]

Fighting back against odds of over 100:1 is not exactly a gun battle, it's a desperate attempt at fully justified self-defense.

Prisoners generally don't have the jailers provide pistols for them. Dig around some more - Smith was expecting the Nauvoo Legion to come and bust him out and initially thought the mob was the legion come to the rescue.

[Sherman Logan]

True but irrelevant. Does not excuse the actions of a murderous mob. Or those of the jailers who conspired in the murder of the men in their charge.

To those who think this was not murder: It was most definitely homicide. So if it wasn’t murder, it should presumably be be considered justifiable under the law.

What justified it? The fact that the mob (and you) hate the guy so much?

[Sherman Logan]

The most egregious aspect of this murder was, of course, the violation of faith by those to whom Smith surrendered on promise of safe conduct.

Ironically, 15 years later his followers similarly murdered, at Mountain Meadows, those who had surrendered to them trusting in their good faith. But the Mormons murdered 120 men, women and children.