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Nauvoo City Councilís minutes of 1840s provide chaos, contention and lies [Lds' Smith Shenanigans]
Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | Jan. 4, 2012 | Doug Gibson

Posted on 01/10/2012 5:47:28 AM PST by Colofornian

(To see Cal Grondahl’s cartoon that goes with this post, click here) The LDS Church Library no longer allows access to the Nauvoo City Council and High Council minutes from 1839 to 1845. That’s a shame, but the minutes, when accessible, were recorded. Signature Books, with the assistance of historian John Dinger, has published the minutes, along with notes, and they’re just plain fascinating for enthusiasts of history. Without spin, they lay out the controversy that swirled in Nauvoo prior to Joseph Smith’s murder and the LDS exodus west.

The documents lend credence to the belief that the then-secret doctrine of polygamy sparked much of the contention that roiled Nauvoo. Many of those associated with the anti-Smith publication, the Nauvoo Expositor, were accused of using polygamy as an excuse to commit adultery. In the city council meeting of June 8, 1844, Hyrum Smith is cited as claiming that Joseph Smith’s revelation on polygamy, read to the Nauvoo High Council on Aug. 12, 1843, “was in answer to a question concerning things which transpired in former days & had no reference to the present time.” As curiously noted, “Hyrum Smith married four plural wives in 1843.” It’s clear that Hyrum Smith had rationalized that it was OK to mislead. Also, on page 255 of the Nauvoo City Council minutes, the LDS prophet, and Nauvoo mayor, Joseph Smith, supports Hyrum’s incorrect words, saying that he had not preached the doctrine in public or private.

From reading the various minutes and notes commentary, polygamy was used as a cudgel in a conflict between the Smiths and their enemies, such as William Law, Wilson Law, Robert and Charles Foster, Chauncey and Francis Higbee, Sylvester Emmons, and others. These accusations were often judged in the non-secular, but equally powerful, Nauvoo High Council meetings. On May 24, 1842, “Chancy” Higbee was excommunicated by the high council after being judged guilty of adultery and for teaching “the doctrine that it was right to have free intercourse with women if it was kept secret …” Higbee, the minutes report, claimed “that Joseph Smith autherised (sic) him to practice these things.”

Other accusations used to discredit critics included counterfeiting, stinginess, and plots to kill Joseph Smith. The final accusation was probably closest to the truth, as the violence that was commonplace in that era made lynching and murder a real possibility. The City Council minutes note how the Smiths used Nauvoo civil law to construct a habeus corpus statute so far-reaching that it could blunt any attempt to have Smith or others extradited to Missouri or anywhere outside of Nauvoo. In fact, Smith used habeus corpus to initially avoid arrest for trashing the Nauvoo Expositor press.

The city council debate that preceded the Nauvoo police’s destruction of the Expositor press as a “nuisance” is very interesting. Anger from past atrocities against Mormons, notably the Haun’s Mill massacre, were used as rationales to destroy the Expositor’s press. Interestingly, one Nauvoo councilman, Benjamin Warrington, opposed destroying the press. He wanted to give the editors time to stop publishing and assess them a $3,000 fine.

Both Smiths spoke in opposition to Warrington’s proposal, Hyrum adding that he doubted the publishers had the money to pay the fine. Those in favor of the press’ destruction cited ” Blackwater’s Commentaries on the Laws of England,” a reference book widely used in that era. Nauvoo city attorney and councilman George P. Stiles used “Blackwater” as evidence, “{saying a} Nuisance is any thing {that} disturbs the peace of {the} community.”

The destruction of the Expositor began before the city council meeting authorizing the act had finished. As are most decisions made in haste and with excessive emotion, it backfired, increasing the danger to Joseph Smith and others. An attempt to use Nauvoo’s liberal habeus corpus law to escape legal heat failed, and to protect Nauvoo from armed mobs, Joseph and Hyrum agreed to be jailed in Carthage, Ill. Assurances of safety from a feckless governor, Thomas Ford, failed, and history records that both Smiths were murdered by a mob.

The Nauvoo City Council minutes after the Smiths’ murders are interesting. There is little of the anger or bluster that was part of the meeting that sanctioned the press’ destruction. It’s muted, and frankly reflects the shock and despair that must have surrounded Nauvoo and church members at the loss of their prophet. Much of the minutes cover discussion on how much the city must renumerate the Nauvoo Expositor for the destruction of its property. Hiram Kimball was assigned the task of dealing with the renumeration.

Also, it’s clear that city leaders were concerned that the mobs that had killed the Smiths were still eager to attack Nauvoo. The council endorsed pleas by Governor Ford and others to avoid violent reprisals.

“The Nauvoo City and High Council Minutes” is a massive, indispensible treasure trove of Mormon history in Illinois. I’ll have further blog entries that will concentrate on the minutes of meetings that determined the church successors to the slain Smiths, and another blog will focus on day-to-day matters that fell before the high council. Some were amusing; one recounts a man brought for church discipline because he sold his wife for her weight in catfish!


TOPICS: History; Other non-Christian; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: bigot; citycouncil; inman; lds; mormon; nauvoo
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Please note - this column was written by a self-professed Mormon.

If you're concerned about Mormon theocracies, well, this article provides yet another historical reason why you need to be.

The minutes reveal that "accusations" by Mormon city council leaders were "used to discredit critics included counterfeiting, stinginess, and plots to kill Joseph Smith." It says that Chancy Higbee was excommunicated by the high council for adultery though Higby claimed Joseph Smith authorized it...all at the same time that these Mormon leaders were trying to hide not only Joseph Smith's relatively secret polygamy, but his brother Hyrum's too...Hyrum having taken four wives in 1843 alone!

From the column: The LDS Church Library no longer allows access to the Nauvoo City Council and High Council minutes from 1839 to 1845. That’s a shame, but the minutes, when accessible, were recorded...The documents lend credence to the belief that the then-secret doctrine of polygamy sparked much of the contention that roiled Nauvoo. Many of those associated with the anti-Smith publication, the Nauvoo Expositor, were accused of using polygamy as an excuse to commit adultery. In the city council meeting of June 8, 1844, Hyrum Smith is cited as claiming that Joseph Smith’s revelation on polygamy, read to the Nauvoo High Council on Aug. 12, 1843, “was in answer to a question concerning things which transpired in former days & had no reference to the present time.” As curiously noted, “Hyrum Smith married four plural wives in 1843.” It’s clear that Hyrum Smith had rationalized that it was OK to mislead. Also, on page 255 of the Nauvoo City Council minutes, the LDS prophet, and Nauvoo mayor, Joseph Smith, supports Hyrum’s incorrect words, saying that he had not preached the doctrine in public or private.

Ah, the spirit of censorship (trying to tuck away Nauvoo public records from 1839-1845) is still very much alive in the Mormon church. "Sequestered" history is more "faith-promoting."

1 posted on 01/10/2012 5:47:39 AM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
From the column: The city council debate that preceded the Nauvoo police’s destruction of the Expositor press as a “nuisance” is very interesting...The Nauvoo City Council minutes after the Smiths’ murders are interesting...Much of the minutes cover discussion on how much the city must renumerate the Nauvoo Expositor for the destruction of its property. Hiram Kimball was assigned the task of dealing with the renumeration.

Why does columnist Doug Gibson assume that only the Nauvoo "police" were involved in its destruction? A regional newspaper of the day describes the perpetrators as a "ruthless, lawless, ruffian band of Mormon Mobocrats" (see quote in context below). The Mormons, having set mobs loose in June, 1844...then wondered by a mob responded with the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

Here is the June 12, 1844 IL coverage by one newspaper of the events of the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor -- as ordered by Mormon founder Joseph Smith: Unparralled Outrage at Nauvoo (Mormon - OPEN):

Excerpt from this linked article: Mr. Sharp: -- I hasten to inform you of the UNPARALLELED OUTRAGE, perpetrated upon our rights and interests, by the ruthless, lawless, ruffian band of MORMON MOBOCRATS, at the dictum that of that UNPRINCIPLED wretch Joe Smith. We were privately informed that the CITY COUNCIL, which had been in extra session, for two days past; had enacted an ordinance in relation to libels, providing that anything that had been published, or anything that might be published tending to disparage the character of the officers of the city should be regarded as LAWLESS. They also declared the "Nauvoo Expositor," a "nuisance," and directed the police of the city to proceed immediately to the office of the Expositor and DESTROY THE PRESS and also the MATERIALS, by THROWING them into the STREET!!!! If any resistance were made, the officers were directed to demolish the building and property, of all who were concerned in publishing said paper; and also take all into custody, who might refuse to obey the authorities of the City. Accordingly, a company consisting of some 200 men, armed and equipped, with Muskets, Swords, Pistols, Bowie Knives, Sledge-Hammers, &c, assisted by a crowd of several hundred minions, who volunteered their services on the occasion, marching to the building, and breaking open the doors with a Sledge Hammer, commenced the work of destruction and desperation. They tumbled the press and materials into the street, and set fire to them, and demolished the machinery with sledge hammer, and injured the building very materially. We made no resistance; but looked on and felt revenge, but leave it for the public to avenge this climax of insult and injury.

How would we feel, if the Mormon "prophet" of today, "determined" that Free Republic was a "public nuisance" and ordered "a company consisting of some 200 men, armed and equipped, with Muskets, Swords, Pistols, Bowie Knives, Sledge-Hammers" to march to Fresno, break down JimRob's business doors with a Sledge Hammer, and commence the work of destruction and desperation, tumbling computers, etc. into the street, and set fire to them, and demolished the machinery with sledge hammers???

Mormons celebrate all this? Why? Because they celebrate Smith as a martyr. And it was principally this act he ordered, that led to an eventual gun battle where Smith died (two guns were smuggled into Smith in prison, just like Ron Gardner's acts in Utah where he sits on death row for having a weapon smuggled into him)

Mormons don't celebrate Smith the criminal, but Smith the "martyr"; yet they wind up essentially endorsing what Smith did to the Nauvoo Expositor. Hence, this doesn't remain merely an act in history. It catapults through time.

Go ahead. Ask your Mormon neighbor: "Was Joseph Smith committing criminal acts by ordering the destruction of the Expositor?" The answer you'll get will show where their absolute commitments lie -- and it won't be with Freedom of the Press.

Since Mormons don't see what Joseph Smith did to the Expositor as "criminal," it makes you wonder what kind of First Amendment destruction they would support even today. Obviously, though, the Nauvoo City Council run by Mormons post Smith's demise realized they need to provide renumeration to the owners of the Expositor for Smith's destructive chaos unleashed within the city.

2 posted on 01/10/2012 5:49:06 AM PST by Colofornian (Romney = pro-abortion)
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To: Colofornian
How would we feel, if the Mormon "prophet" of today, "determined" that Free Republic was a "public nuisance" and ordered "a company consisting of some 200 men, armed and equipped, with Muskets, Swords, Pistols, Bowie Knives, Sledge-Hammers" to march to Fresno, break down JimRob's business doors with a Sledge Hammer, and commence the work of destruction and desperation, tumbling computers, etc. into the street, and set fire to them, and demolished the machinery with sledge hammers.

We have seen the attempt by mormons to censor FR for years. Some seem to be of the mindset that destruction of the website would be justified.

3 posted on 01/10/2012 6:16:09 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (The Religion Forum is not for the faint-hearted or those not accustomed to being opposed.)
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To: greyfoxx39

We’d just go see what John Moses Browning had in stock.


4 posted on 01/10/2012 6:31:01 AM PST by Paladin2
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To: Paladin2

HEH!


5 posted on 01/10/2012 6:45:17 AM PST by greyfoxx39 (The Religion Forum is not for the faint-hearted or those not accustomed to being opposed.)
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To: Colofornian

P M


6 posted on 01/10/2012 7:16:29 AM PST by svcw (For the new year: you better toughen up, if you are going to continue to be stupid.)
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To: Colofornian

LDS made one mistake they settled too far south in Illinois, if they would have settled around Galena or so they would have settled with their Yankee relatives who themselves were Transcedentalist wannabe gods instead of the excitable Scots-Irish type more prevalant down south. They still would have been run out of Illinois but those in the North would have used then law and then claimed it under authority of god him/herself.


7 posted on 01/10/2012 7:18:46 AM PST by junta ("Peace is a racket", testimony from crime boss Barrack Hussein Obama.)
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To: junta

Spent a week with some jack mormons at their hunting camp in WY, came away from that experience thinking more than ever that the LDS is nothing but a rich powerful cult.


8 posted on 01/10/2012 7:21:12 AM PST by junta ("Peace is a racket", testimony from crime boss Barrack Hussein Obama.)
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To: Colofornian
an eventual gun battle where Smith died (two guns were smuggled into Smith in prison

I am not a Mormon and agree Smith was a dodgy character.

However, I think it is unfair to call his murder a "gun battle," which implies something resembling even odds and possibly intention.

The jail where he was held was stormed by about 200 armed men, who were in cahoots with the supposed guards.

Fighting back against odds of over 100:1 is not exactly a gun battle, it's a desperate attempt at fully justified self-defense.

9 posted on 01/10/2012 7:44:10 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Colofornian

Much of the minutes cover discussion on how much the city must renumerate the Nauvoo Expositor for the destruction of its property. Hiram Kimball was assigned the task of dealing with the renumeration.
____________________________________

Interesting...

Maybe the destruction of the press was not so justified after all...

The Mormons in 1844 didnt seem to think so...

regardless of the slant the current Mormons may put on the ill deed...


10 posted on 01/10/2012 7:48:48 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian

Ah, the spirit of censorship (trying to tuck away Nauvoo public records from 1839-1845) is still very much alive in the Mormon church. “Sequestered” history is more “faith-promoting.”
_____________________________________

What, no “transparency” ???

How very Obamaesque of the Mormons...


11 posted on 01/10/2012 7:52:47 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Colofornian
I am personally uncomfortable with wholesale attacks against an entire religion in a transparent attempt to smear Romney.

Any religion can be the target of unfair demagoguery by focusing on people or events that were highly unsavory, in that religions history.

There is plenty of opportunity to honestly disagree with Romney and others based on their positions regarding economic, social and geo political issues, without slandering an entire group of people.

12 posted on 01/10/2012 8:07:10 AM PST by Awgie (truth is always stranger than fiction)
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To: Sherman Logan

***Fighting back against odds of over 100:1 is not exactly a gun battle, it’s a desperate attempt at fully justified self-defense. ****

Doesn’t fit the movie in which Vincent Price stands there, harmless with no guns, while the “evil” mob shoots him down.


13 posted on 01/10/2012 8:14:24 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Awgie

Sober thought is unwelcome on these “let’s make fun of someone else’s religion” threads.


14 posted on 01/10/2012 8:16:41 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: Awgie

Sober thought is unwelcome on these “let’s make fun of someone else’s religion” threads.


15 posted on 01/10/2012 8:16:55 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Disagree with your scare quotes around evil.

Unless you think mobs aren’t evil, more or less by definition.


16 posted on 01/10/2012 8:18:58 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Awgie; Colofornian
There is plenty of opportunity to honestly disagree with Romney and others based on their positions regarding economic, social and geo political issues, without slandering an entire group of people.

Explain that to the mormons running around facebook who are filing bogus abuse claims to have people and pages banned - even for quoting their own prophet.

17 posted on 01/10/2012 8:27:45 AM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Sherman Logan
However, I think it is unfair to call his murder a "gun battle," which implies something resembling even odds and possibly intention. The jail where he was held was stormed by about 200 armed men, who were in cahoots with the supposed guards.

Are you consistent then?

If a prisoner were to today -- in your local jail -- get ahold of two loaded weapons...and he was to die in proximity to 200 armed men (non-prisoners)...all as he fires at least 6 shots...that's not a gun battle either...just because the ratio is 200:1?

Whatever your squeamishness about it, ya gotta understand it that it's usually portrayed as a martyrdom. I'm sorry, but sacrificial lambs don't go down shooting & killing people as did Joseph Smith.

So, if it wasn't a martyrdom, and if you are uncomfortable with calling it a "gun battle," what third choice would you offer up?

And why isn't the reality of a prisoner having loaded weapons ever an issue in describing whatever it is we're describing?

I tell you what...if people heard about a prisoner being shot all as he was shooting & killing others...and that he got at least 6 shots off...they wouldn't think twice about his death.

18 posted on 01/10/2012 8:28:37 AM PST by Colofornian (Romney = pro-abortion)
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To: Colofornian

200 armed men in a mob bent on murder should be shot. As often as possible.

Joe was being held pending trial by agreement with the governor, who had guaranteed his safety.

I believe Joe and the other prisoners were entirely justified in trying to use lethal force to protect their lives.

I think Joe was guilty of a great many crimes and should have been prosecuted and punished for them. Not murdered by a mob in cahoots with those who were supposed to be protecting him.

This type of mob action was an ongoing problem in IL and other American states at the time. Six years before the murder of Smith, an obscure young IL lawyer gave a speech on the subject, just 100 miles away. I agree with him.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/lyceum.htm


19 posted on 01/10/2012 8:43:23 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

“I think Joe was guilty of a great many crimes and should have been prosecuted and punished for them. Not murdered by a mob in cahoots with those who were supposed to be protecting him.”

I agree. Joe was guilty and the frontier often acted outside the law to bring justice.
I would have preferred to see Joe face a jury.

Was justice done? Hard to say. A jury might have punished him in the same way. Did Joe reap what he had sown? I think so. His life was a tragedy that has gone on to afflict millions.


20 posted on 01/10/2012 9:17:08 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (You know, 99.99999965% of the lawyers give all of them a bad name)
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To: Awgie
Any religion can be the target of unfair demagoguery by focusing on people or events that were highly unsavory, in that religions history.

All right then look to the bible itself and compare that to the book of Mormon. The problem with Mormonism is that its trying to claim it is Christian when it is not. Christians have the right to disprove this cult.

Ignoring this is giving a pass to a cult.

without slandering

What the heck do you think they do to Jesus and God every day? They claim that God was once man, that Jesus is brothers with Satan, the virgin birth did not take place.....etc. Are we suppose to ignore that and just let them roll over Christianity and take over with their lies?

21 posted on 01/10/2012 9:17:56 AM PST by dragonblustar (Allah Ain't So Akbar!)
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To: Sherman Logan

***Unless you think mobs aren’t evil, more or less by definition.****

From what I’ve read, many, not all, in that mob were former Mormons who realized what Smith really was, a fake.


22 posted on 01/10/2012 9:23:09 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: jimt
rancor

Speaking of rancor, how's it going with your two ex-wives?

Have an extremely nice day?

24 posted on 01/10/2012 9:43:42 AM PST by Colofornian (Romney = pro-abortion)
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To: Sherman Logan
200 armed men in a mob bent on murder should be shot. As often as possible.

And you know exactly how many armed men there were how?

And you absolutely know that NONE of these armed men were prison guards who knew Smith had been weaponized how?

Not murdered by a mob in cahoots with those who were supposed to be protecting him.

Well, I agree...

#1...the jack Mormon sheriff charged with protecting Smith should have done his duty and not be so easily overrun (without a fight)

#2...Unless, of course, the jack Mormon sheriff already knew that two guns had been smuggled into Smith and didn't want to risk his own harm -- or anyone in his employ -- of trying to confiscate those weapons. And if that was the case, no wonder he let the mob take on an armed prisoner...

I imagine if any of that mob heard about the guns having been smuggled into Smith that they felt justified in storming his room.

Or do you advocate that prisoners with a loaded weapon in any prison today not be confronted with an armed response?

Seems to me you're saying that if a prisoner today knows he is a target of say -- another prisoner -- who has been weaponized...that it's "OK" for that prisoner to likewise become weaponized in self-defense.

Is that what you advocate for our prison system today?

25 posted on 01/10/2012 9:57:48 AM PST by Colofornian (Romney = pro-abortion)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Colofornian

The LDS Church Library no longer allows access to the Nauvoo City Council and High Council minutes from 1839 to 1845.

- - - - -
The big question here is WHY are they no longer allowing it? What are they hiding?


27 posted on 01/10/2012 10:06:20 AM PST by reaganaut (If Romney is a conservative then I'm the frickin Angel Moroni.)
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To: Awgie

First, we were doing this long before Romney so it isn’t just about him.

Second, Romney is a product of Mormon culture, not contrary to it.

Third, how much do you REALLY know about Mormonism? I used to be Mormon and know a great deal. The LDS church lies to its members, can you name another church that does that?


28 posted on 01/10/2012 10:12:16 AM PST by reaganaut (If Romney is a conservative then I'm the frickin Angel Moroni.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; Sherman Logan

I have heard that as well. Also, there is some evidence that Smith thought at least part of the mob outside was there to break him out of jail and that he recognized a few of them because he used the Masonic signal of distress before falling out the window.

If Smith really thought that the Governor would protect him, why did he have 2 guns (and some liquor) smuggled in?


29 posted on 01/10/2012 10:16:48 AM PST by reaganaut (If Romney is a conservative then I'm the frickin Angel Moroni.)
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To: Awgie; Mr. Lucky; Godzilla
There is plenty of opportunity to honestly disagree with Romney and others based on their positions regarding economic, social and geo political issues, without slandering an entire group of people.

Have you EVER in your life contacted the Mormon church with the same request? (No? Why not?)

You do realize, don't you, that the Mormon church routinely -- as in daily -- slanders ALL Christians and all Christian churches?

And their voice and volume is significantly broader and higher than any mere posts on one Web site here.

Voice: The Lds church has 52,000 missionaries out and about. Since the 1950s, one of the top four messages of these missionaries -- since implemented by then "prophet" David McKay -- was to preach about the so-called "universal apostasy" of all Christians and all Christian denominations past and present.

Muslims reference Christians as "infidels"; no different than Mormons slandering Christians as "apostates."

Volume: This message about us as "apostates" goes out online, in their books & mags & curricula, on campus, etc.

These are not simply generic messages; the Lds church specifically references Christian sects in slandering 100% of our creeds as an alleged "abomination." And this isn't just one Mormon leader's opinion uttered somewhere; it's in "stone" as part of Mormon "scripture." (why don't you google Joseph Smith - History - vv. 18-19 in the Pearl of Great Price in order to educate yourself on the daily slander of the Mormon church upon Christian denominations?)

Mormons do this political season out and political season in...and all days in between.

To borrow from your language, there is plenty of opportunity for Mormons to honestly disagree with Christian sects without villainizing us in a scorched earth approach as 100% apostates who are 100% "corrupt" (their word) who is a "church of the devil" (Mormon conclusion about us) who embrace 100% abominable creeds.

But...what? No mention of your contact with the Lds church asking for some "cease fire" of this daily slander? Why not?

Inquiring minds want to know why you come across as a two-faced hypocrite? So prove me wrong here and show me your track record of trying to rein in the Mormon church as some kind of "calming influence" approaching both sides. Because until you do that, your concern about a few online "pea shooters" in comparison to the $billion Lds Inc. rings a wee bit hollow in actualized discernment.

30 posted on 01/10/2012 10:17:24 AM PST by Colofornian (Romney = pro-abortion)
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To: Awgie; Mr. Lucky; Godzilla; Zakeet
Any religion can be the target of unfair demagoguery by focusing on people or events that were highly unsavory, in that religions history

Except that I've reviewed hundreds of Lds-written books re: "history" and hundreds more articles on Mormon history...and NONE of them regard what Smith & the Nauvoo City Council toward the Expositor as "unsavory."

If they don't regard it as "unsavory," then what? We just let them have their monuments and museums presenting revised history as they see fit?

No opposition opinions or expressions allowed, lest you get a poster named Awgie frowning upon you?

Well, I guess if you don't like it, you can let the spirit of Mormonism carry you to get a mob and go destroy FR -- like the Nauvoo Expositor's critiques of Mormonism were similarly silenced.

I stand by what I said in post #1 -- that Mormons to this day do not frame what happened under Joseph Smith's control as a "negative" criminal act. Therefore they are actually part of the anarchy problem -- rather than just being perceived "victims" of it.

Oh...and btw...I REALLY want you to prove you're NOT hypocritical...or inconsistent...So please tell us how you e-mailed Doug Gibson -- the author of this article -- and provide your same frowning to him.

Since Gibson himself is Mormon, a fact that seemed somehow to have been lost upon you, you can accuse a Mormon of engaging in "unfair demoguery" vs. Mormons...especially since Gibson's latest column criticizes Romney...showing that this columnist, too, ventures back & forth 'tween the political and the religious dimensions.

31 posted on 01/10/2012 10:35:36 AM PST by Colofornian (Romney = pro-abortion)
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To: Sherman Logan
However, I think it is unfair to call his murder a "gun battle," which implies something resembling even odds and possibly intention.

And I do not like his death being called a MURDER.




 
"Joseph; I advise you not to go to that jail."
 
"Darn gnats!!"
 
 
"Joseph; I'm telling you to not to go to that jail."
 
"Flies are BAD today!!"
 
 
"Joseph; It ain't gonna be pretty if you ignore me and go to that jail!"
 
"Crummy mosquitos are EVERYWHERE!!!"
 
 
"Joseph!  Do NOT go to that jail!"
 
"And those bedbugs really savaged me last night, too!"
 
 
"JOSEPH!!  Wake up boy!   Do Not Go To That JAIL!!!"
 
"All right Sheriff - here I am, so give me a nice room while my Lawyer, my Advocate, my Comforter presents the LAW to the Judge and I am VINDICATED!!!"
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


32 posted on 01/10/2012 10:39:55 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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33 posted on 01/10/2012 10:43:01 AM PST by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list)
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To: Sherman Logan
The jail where he was held was stormed by about 200 armed men, who were in cahoots with the supposed guards.

Do you think the fact that the Nauvoo Legion had many MORE men than this had ANYthing to do with it?


The parades and other activities of the legion—which included mock battles—attracted visitors from near and far. Indeed, the legion became so popular that many non-Mormons joined the ranks. At its peak, it is said to have numbered 5,000 men, the largest such body in Illinois.
 
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/1831_1844/nauvoo_legion_eom.htm

34 posted on 01/10/2012 10:43:25 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Awgie
I am personally uncomfortable with wholesale attacks against an entire religion in a transparent attempt to smear Romney.

Yeah! That DOES tend to gall a fellow's crotch!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

35 posted on 01/10/2012 10:45:13 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Did Joe reap what he had sown?

JESUS: Hey Smith!       Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?

JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?

JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?

JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!

JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.

JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!

JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.

JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.

JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?

JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)

JESUS: That's it.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: Nah - it was right.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.

JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.

JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!

JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?

JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....

JESUS: What did you say?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.

JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.

JESUS: No...

JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?

JESUS: Nope.

JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!

JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: No; it wasn't.

JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?

JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?

JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.

JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly FAITHbook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.

JOSEPH SMITH: But.... 

36 posted on 01/10/2012 10:47:23 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
And I do not like his death being called a MURDER.

Glad to know a freeper approves of lynching as a method of justice. A very conservative position.

/s

Would you care to explain where this IL lawyer of the time and area was wrong in his opinion of mobocracy as a huge danger to the Republic?

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/lyceum.htm

37 posted on 01/10/2012 11:04:50 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan; Colofornian
Fighting back against odds of over 100:1 is not exactly a gun battle, it's a desperate attempt at fully justified self-defense.

Prisoners generally don't have the jailers provide pistols for them. Dig around some more - Smith was expecting the Nauvoo Legion to come and bust him out and initially thought the mob was the legion come to the rescue.

38 posted on 01/10/2012 1:35:25 PM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Godzilla

True but irrelevant. Does not excuse the actions of a murderous mob. Or those of the jailers who conspired in the murder of the men in their charge.

To those who think this was not murder: It was most definitely homicide. So if it wasn’t murder, it should presumably be be considered justifiable under the law.

What justified it? The fact that the mob (and you) hate the guy so much?


39 posted on 01/10/2012 1:39:28 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Colofornian

The most egregious aspect of this murder was, of course, the violation of faith by those to whom Smith surrendered on promise of safe conduct.

Ironically, 15 years later his followers similarly murdered, at Mountain Meadows, those who had surrendered to them trusting in their good faith. But the Mormons murdered 120 men, women and children.


40 posted on 01/10/2012 1:43:07 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
To those who think this was not murder: It was most definitely homicide. So if it wasn’t murder, it should presumably be be considered justifiable under the law.

I never said that, so please be careful in your reading. Yes, Smith was murdered by the mob - that much is true. Smith also went down by shooting at his attackers - not as lds like to depict as a sheep led to slaughter.

The fact that he gave the order for the legion to come and get him out displays his arrogance of the law in that he was willing to start a war to justify his illegal actions as Nauvoo mayor.

Did that justify the action by the mob? No, but it does show that smith had finally hit the bee hive one too many times and that those who he had persecuted and attacked (using is danites) weren't taking it any more.

smith's arrogance is only exceeded by 0bama

41 posted on 01/10/2012 1:49:33 PM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Sherman Logan
Glad to know a freeper approves of lynching as a method of justice.

Glad to know that you can make up stuff outta thin air.

Did I miss the ROPE at the GUNFIGHT?

42 posted on 01/10/2012 2:05:54 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Sherman Logan
True but irrelevant.

It is so EASY for you to state IRRELEVANT and then launch onto something else; isn't it.

Or those of the jailers who conspired in the murder of the men in their charge.

CONSPIRACY???

Got EVIDENCE?

43 posted on 01/10/2012 2:08:10 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Sherman Logan

You’ve suprised me with this reply!


44 posted on 01/10/2012 2:09:43 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Sherman Logan

so because smith was murdered, it was justifable to murder 120+ men, women and children in cold blood and to this day deny their surviving family members from erecting a memorial to their lives and death.


45 posted on 01/10/2012 2:13:01 PM PST by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: Colofornian
I knew there was some crazy stuff being perpetuated by the LDS founders, but sheesh, some of this is...it makes me wonder how a religion/cult/sect/whatever came out of such a group of men like Joseph Smith and his contemporaries. They were out of control.

Now I understand the comparisons to L. Ron Hubbard a lot better, but Hubbard seemed a lot more disciplined.
46 posted on 01/10/2012 3:55:19 PM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr
Now I understand the comparisons to L. Ron Hubbard a lot better, but Hubbard seemed a lot more disciplined.

And he just LOVED the printing press!

47 posted on 01/10/2012 3:57:20 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

In this day and age, an “Joseph Smith” type would never get away with some of the stuff he and his early followers did. They would never brainwash enough people to buy into it either.


48 posted on 01/10/2012 4:00:37 PM PST by af_vet_rr
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To: af_vet_rr

OH?

http://articles.cnn.com/2007-02-16/us/miami.preacher_1_cult-leader-followers-tattoo?_s=PM:US


49 posted on 01/10/2012 5:07:00 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

You’ll always have nuts, but they won’t reach the size and scale that Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard did. More like the Branch Davidians or Heaven’s Gate.


50 posted on 01/10/2012 7:06:22 PM PST by af_vet_rr
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