Kenneth Copeland; Tongues as Languages Not Learned etc

That curious, mystifying space between Quix's ears | 9 MAR 2012 | Quix

[Quix]

Sqaw Girlfriends???

I wouldn’t know how to handle your typing in tongues.

I don’t trust my discernment that much, except at close range . . . USUALLY.

I suppose one could type and pray in tongues that way. I see no reason why not.

However, Please don’t expect me to interpret. I only occasionally feel that fall my lot and always in person or on the phone.

[Quix]

MOre dodging the point

and proffering the same tiresome pack of straw dogs.

[metmom]

If people preach a false and accursed Gospel, then EVERYTHING else they teach is suspect as well. If they can't get the basics right then they should not be trusted to get the minors right either. That's why I always look at a ministry's statement of faith. Like the one I cited from Copeland's website, right at the start, they got the Gospel wrong - and it was not a minor mistake - they blew it. How, then, can whatever else they say be believed? From their teachings on the Gospel, I knew that the further I read of Copeland's ministry the further he would prove his errors. It is like he hit this huge bump in the road - the Gospel - and he never got back on the path again.

EXACTLY.....

Preach it, sister.

[metmom]

From their teachings on the Gospel, I knew that the further I read of Copeland's ministry the further he would prove his errors. It is like he hit this huge bump in the road - the Gospel - and he never got back on the path again.

Romans 9:30-33 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

1 Peter 2:6-8 6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”

8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Scandalon by Michael Card

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wf8OGTqiSw

[metmom]

WHAT A TIRESOME and terminally foolish STRAW DOG. It is totally absurd to assert that EXPERIENCE (A) IS ARBITRARILY HOLY, RIGHTEOUS AND RELIABLE WHILE EXPERIENCE (B) IS ARBITRARILY EVIL, CORRUPT, USELESS.

Nobody is arbitrarily saying anything is valid or not. it's not arbitrary to use Scripture, which is what it's there for.

It's certainly NOT Biblical. NO ONE has a clue that there even IS such a thing as a BIBLE apart from one's EXPERIENCE of the wood pulp and ink.

The truth of God's word is truth and stands alone as truth regardless of any one person's *experiences* with it.

The Bible isn't truth based on my experience with it. It is truth, period. It is the absolute standard by which EVERYTHING else is to be measured, including feely good experiences.

[metmom]

What a cop out......

[Quix]

Y’all are THOROUGHLY MISSING THE POINTS YET again.

Which demonstrates yet again

that I just don’t have the linguistic skills to be sufficiently effective so as to achieve actual communication with y’all.

And the sense of futility is not recreationally even close to fun.

[Quix]

.
SAID HE,
UTTERLY
MYSTIFIED!

.

I'm beginning to think we aren't even in the same galactic cluster. And that doesn't even BEGIN to get into the emotionalities expressed.

[boatbums]

I sincerely do appreciate your reasoned and well thought out comments. I don't think I or anyone else here on this "side" would attest we are hard and fast Cessationists but to a person we have stated that we believe God never HAS stopped working miracles in our lives. I agree that what passes for the "sign gifts" today is a poor imitation of what existed in that first century. I think we agree that IF someone truly had those gifts today, they most certainly WOULD be exhibited just like the Apostles and disciples did. There would NOT be even a need to falsify or fake such things other than false teachers attempting to seduce gullible people who omit the study of the Word.

I think it is also inescapable to accept that the church in those centuries after the Apostles all died and the Bible was completed did cease exhibiting those supernatural manifestations. I do not believe it can or should be attributed to an apostate church or to a "slow spiritual declension". God always has his "remnant" and, if those gifts were in use then, I can imagine it would have been mentioned in at least some of the writings. Please understand me, I have NEVER said nor thought that God has slowed down or ceased in working in miraculous ways for His children and I have many examples of such in my own life as well as acquaintances and other's testimonies. I KNOW God still works! What I do doubt is a specific person(s) being given the same miraculous gifts that were given back then. Whatever healings I have or have not experienced were because of following the Biblical example of the church leaders' prayers as well as other Christians. And it was never the person's power that was credited for the healing, it was always God that received the glory.

What saddens me greatly is how many people have such hopes for God to work THROUGH a self-professed "healer" and, when they are not healed, the Healer takes no responsibility for his failure but lays it all upon the sick's lack of faith. Seldom is God's perfect will and plan ever voiced as the reason why healing didn't take place and the sick leave with no such guidance from the Healer's people. So much greed is rampant in this type of ministry, with lavish lifestyles and sleazy "programs" designed to gather as much fleece from the flock as can be had. Rarely do we see or hear of a humble, meek and God-glorifying minister visiting the sick away from cameras and followers.

Again, I do appreciate your respectful comments and the time and effort it take you to compose them. I dearly wish others had the same attitude of understanding that, though others may not hold the same views on these matters, it in no way means they are not Spirit-filled, lovers of Christ and living lives that bring glory and honor to God.

[presently no screen name]

Is someone thinks there is a demon in them, they need deliverance not tongues.

If its their own mind doing the questioning - let it go, don’t speak it. There is a lot of renewing the mind to be done and evangelize, then to be hung up on tongues. Why is this being made into a big deal? There is no reason for anyone to condemn or concern themselves over this.

[boatbums]

If you're SO tired, go to bed! You have missed what I even said and, instead, used the typical ****CONTROL*****FREAQUE*** response of someone who merely wants to disagree because someone doesn't agree 100% with him. What is REALLY absurd is to construct an "experience" of something that happens by God's control and then try to pretend it IS from God. That, my friend, is the gist of what I said. If our experiences do not comport with what Scripture speaks about such experiences, i.e., being "filled" with the Holy Spirit, then our experience SHOULD be questioned.

Show me anywhere in Scripture that the Apostles taught classes in how to speak in tongues! Yet, people DID have that gift and Scripture describes it AND how it was experienced AND its purpose. Anywhere in there about people rolling around on the floor? Barking like dogs? Laughing so uncontrollably that they peed their pants? If THAT was part of the "experience", believe me, those Corinthians would have experienced it first! And Paul would have rebuked them over that as well! Do all thing decently and in order, is what he said - by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

When will you have enough of telling everyone who disagrees with you on this subject that they are WRONG! ABSURD! UNSPIRITUAL! VILE! EVIL! ??? Really, when will it be enough and you finally get it that we can be just as Spirit-filled, just as anointed, just as holy, just as loving, just as obedient as you and your peeps and NOT speak in tongues nor accept its reality for today??? That is what it boils down to. Can you respect and accept Christian brothers and sisters and rejoice in all we DO agree on and let this part go? You need to decide. Now's a good time, while you're tired.

[mitch5501]

"Thank you for considering the long explanation my understanding of this issue."

First off daniel let me thank you for that outstanding post! Cool,calm,candid.Thankyou for showing us how it's done!< prod >

"Some cessationists also argue that the church that had the most spiritual gifts was also most carnal, which is a very dangerous argument for it infers that spiritual gifts fosters carnality."

Many of the posts here are exhortations to check everything by the scriptures and rightly so.However you would think that after a decade or so of posting back and forth that we would all pretty much know where each other is coming from.For the vast part these folks posts speak for themselves.Most of this group here are pretty much sceptical of everything till it's been through the lens.I don't doubt any of these folks standing with God,yourself included and I also don't doubt that little,if anything that didn't pass the smell test would slither past any of you.It would be promptly stomped on and mocked whilst thanking God for His Word and the sound mind He has given us.It is God who cleans out our worldly baggage and makes us more and more an examiner of all we hear.

It's a wonderfull thing to be able to be still and know that God is God!

However we are still in these "bodies of death" inhabited by a "wicked and deceitfull" heart.As we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds we each seem to reach a point where we 'tip' so to speak.As if we now know the reality of God and much of what that entails.A lot becomes very clear then and much cloud and haze is blown away very quickly.It's trully wonderfull and I KNOW that all of you know exactly what I mean...this wonderfull 'point of no return' so to speak.I say "as if we know" because if we had that mustard seed sized faith the sun would probably be blotted out with flying mountains and the beaches would by covered with herds of swine.Still...it aint over yet!

There's one part of me that reads all these lectures and goes...wull duh! and another part that wants to be thankfull that my bro/sisters here on FR care enough about me to post them.So I mostly grit my teeth and thank God 8-)

However I think I'd be hard pressed to go through pretty much every post on this thread (and especially the one that was locked) and not find something,however small, that didn't have flesh written all over it.Yours and mine included.We are still here and it is still here.In the grand scheme of things it's a shame that we seem to quickly turn our sceptisism on each other.I've no doubt that a lot of validity wafts in and out of the conversation but I also suspect that the real enemy of our souls is sometimes busting a gut laughing.

In reality we are all "lame dead dogs" supping at the King's table totally on someone elses account.(2 Samuel 9:8)Just sayin...

Oh yeah..."for it infers that spiritual gifts fosters carnality"...I wouldn't say that but it does sometimes appear that carnality really wants to tag along with the gifts...and then oh what a mess!

Grace...lots of grace and peace to you all.

[Quix]

EXCELLENT POINTS.

THANKS.

[Joya]

Post 492, AMEN!

[Joya]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2856901/posts?page=492#492

[metmom]

I agree with bb here as well.

I think that the sign gifts as they were practiced at the time of the writing of 1 Corinthians isn’t the same as what is being practiced today, but not that God can’t have someone speak in tongues to preach the gospel if need be, or that God doesn’t heal if He chooses, and doesn’t have a higher purpose in the sickness.

However, most of what I see and hear coming from the present day charismatic movement has no Scriptural basis and so is by default suspect. I’m sure someone will take offense at this, but I’m of the opinion that everything should be considered suspect until it is proved true, not that everything should be presumed to be true until it is proved false, which is also valid to some degree but far more dangerous.

Those who take everything as being from God just because it is CLAIMED to be from God are walking on thin ice and are in great danger of being deceived. That is why we need to be in the word daily, to be memorizing it and to be using it as the standard by which everything is measured and rejecting the evil and holding fast to the good.

Copeland’s statements about Jesus and tongues and his behavior in his personal life and towards those who disagree with him or try to expose him demonstrate that he is not who he claims to be, is likely not even a Christian, and should not be taken seriously in any matter. Because, as someone pointed out earlier, if he can’t even get the basics of who Jesus is correct, everything else is suspect.

If people spent more time trying to live like Christ and BE Christ to a lost and hurting world instead of engaging in behavior that makes them feel good and only inflates their egos, then I think that not only would we see that harvest that is out there. And that as we get our eyes off the miracles for the sake of miracles, that we’d actually see more genuine miracles as worked by God than we do now and there wouldn’t be the controversy over whether they are from Him or not; we’d know it when we see it because we are walking with Him.

I think the church is shooting itself in the foot, short circuiting what God really COULD do with all the focus on what they think He SHOULD be doing. If we are obedience and preaching the gospel and making disciples, then when God chooses to work a miracle, He will have more freedom to do it, everyone will know it’s from Him, and He and He alone will get the glory for it.

When we are walking in obedience and get out of His way, He can work.

JMO.

[fishtank]

I want to thank both of you so much for representing the truth of Christ on this thread.

I don’t see much of a difference between Copeland and Joseph Smith, and you two proved that when you posted Copeland’s teachings.

Again, thanks.

[metmom]

I’ve never been much of a fan of televangelists. They’ve always rubbed me the wrong way from the get go. Too fake.

So I never really looked much into what they actually taught so this has been an eye opener for me as well.

Seeing as I know quite a few folks who are charismatic and follow Copeland and Hinn, et all, this is good information to have. I will be praying that their eyes will be opened to the true of what they are about and what they teach as well and in the meantime, this gives me something to use.

Matter of fact, I went through almost the entire thread and compiled all the posts people have posted which show the errors in his teaching. I can FReepmail or email you a copy if you like. I have a gmail address for FR related use only.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind encouragements.