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Chris Matthews Says Evangelicals See Catholics (and Mormons) as Cultists. Is He Right or Wrong?
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | March 14, 2012 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 03/15/2012 11:29:19 AM PDT by NYer

I was loaded for bear when I heard a clip (on the radio) of Chris Matthews saying, what sounded to me, that Catholics and Mormons were “cultists.” However, as I examined the clip further on my own, and heard it in context, I discovered that his comment, while still bigoted, had to be understood differently.

In effect Mr. Matthews was saying that southern Evangelicals consider Catholics and Mormons to be cultists and, despite that, they are willing to hold their nose and vote for “cultists” since they dislike President Obama even more. Thus Mr. Matthews did in fact make a bigoted comment, but he directed it against Evangelicals, whose views he simplifies, demonizes and caricatures. The video below contains his comments. And here are some brief written excerpts of what he said. Remember, he is saying what he thinks are the views of Southern Evangelicals:

They’re [i.e. Evangelicals] not going to vote for President Obama. So who [are] they going get to beat him? That seems to be on their minds now, not who they like. They are willing to outsource it to a Mormon. …It’s almost like calling up India, or somewhere in the third-world to get your computer fixed. You don’t care who is fixing it, just fix the damn computer. They have…two RCs — Roman Catholics, running and a Mormon, so they’re three cultists running. I have to pick one of the three cultists, as they see them. This isn’t as funny as I’m making it, but it’s ridiculous to pick a guy they really think is the heretic…[so] they pick the guy they don’t like to pick [i.e. beat] a guy they hate worse,

It’s a bit garbled but to summarize, Mr. Matthews is saying, in effect, that the hopelessly bigoted Republican Evangelicals in the South are obviously prejudiced against both Mormons and Catholics, but they’re willing to put aside their concerns, for the moment, just to ensure that the candidate they chose is most likely to defeat President Obama.

It is clear that this is a prejudicial rant, it is uncalled for and simplistic. Evangelicals, where ever they live are more diverse and sophisticated than Mr. Matthews presumes. However I do have a couple of questions to pose about his claims, especially about how you think Evangelicals regard Catholics and Mormons.

First, I wonder if there has not been a great easing of tensions at many levels between Catholics and Evangelicals. What do you think?

I recall, as a youngster, that Evangelicals, (we often called them “Fundamentalists in those days), would quite publicly vilify Catholicism with terms such as popery, whore of Babylon, cult, Mary worshipers, etc. It would be almost unthinkable in those days (60s and 70s) for Catholics and Evangelicals to meet on common ground, except perhaps to debate the “errors” of Catholicism.

But I think there is a lot less of this today. To be sure, we still have very significant theological differences, and these do still cause some tension. However, I think the dialogue today is much more respectful between Catholics and Evangelicals. Our commonalities on Abortion and the moral issues have a lot to do with this. We have learned to work together and have grown in mutual respect.

I have personally come to appreciate the zeal for faith that many Evangelicals I have known have. Further, they have a fine tradition of good biblical preaching and a love for Scripture that is admirable. Differences in interpretation of Scripture are not minimal, but ultimately there is a lot of common ground on the premise that Scripture is the inspired and infallible Word of God in matters of faith and morals, and that it cannot be set aside for any purpose.

The steady stream of converts to Catholicism also shows greater openness and respect from the Evangelical side. They too have come to know, trust and respect us based on our work together in pro-life action and a shared vision on the moral issues of our day. We, as the Church are enriched by the gifts they bring with them from their Evangelical roots.

At least this is how I see it. While not not denying that some anti-Catholic bigotry still exists in pockets of the Evangelical community, I don’t see it as strong and widespread as Chris Matthews does. What do you think, do most Evangelicals see us as “cultists” or not?

Second, regarding Mormons the situation is less serene. I do hear a lot of strongly negative things said of Mormons by both Catholics and Evangelicals. And the word “cult” is often used.

Frankly I have concerns about using the word “cult” in reference to Mormons. First of all “cult,” as used in American English, does not really express the Catholic understanding. When the word “cult” is used in official Church documents, it is usually meant in a positive manner, (e.g. the “cult of the Saints”). “Cult” or cultus in the Catholic lexicon refers to religious devotion of some sort. The modern use of the word “cult” among Americans is strongly pejorative and not particularly helpful, especially where Mormonism is concerned.

To be clear, I do think that Mormonism is a false religion, or at least a heretical offshoot of Christianity, which has departed so far from the Christian faith as to no longer be considered Christian. However the use of the word cult may not help advance trust or engender a true or fair consideration of Mormons.

I want to say that I am no expert on Mormonism, but I have come to discover that neither are many of the critics I have heard. I have a Catholic acquaintance who is a former Mormon, and I often run some of the crazier things I hear past him. And though he is a clear critic of the Mormonism he left, for theological reasons, he often smiles at some of the wilder things. As for Mormons getting their own planet, he thinks this is blown out of proportion since it is not an official teaching of theirs, but a speculation of certain Mormons of how to interpret Jesus’ words In my Father’s House there are many mansions - Jn 14:2. According to him, most Mormons would simply conclude they don’t know what this means exactly, perhaps a house, a planet, but most just say they don’t know, except that somehow they will one day reign with Christ. As to the claim that they think they will become gods, here too, though a critic of Mormon theology on the Trinity and many other things, he thinks this claim is unfair, and a caricature of their belief that they will share one day in the divine nature. But this is a standard Christian belief too, (e.g. 2 Peter 1:4).

Now I can hear some of you now, “Boy, Msgr. Pope really has the wool pulled over his eyes and doesn’t seem to know that this is a dangerous cult.” Again let me say, I don’t really know much about Mormonism. But what I am saying is that if we are going to criticize it, let’s make sure we are fair and accurate.

As Catholics we know how many have distorted notions of our beliefs and practices, whether now or in the past. No matter how many times we say we don’t worship Mary, some still think we do, etc. Lets just be careful not to engage in the same things toward Mormons and lets be careful that we are critiquing real Mormonism, not just a straw man.

Back to Chris Matthew’s point. Is he right that Evangelicals (and many Catholics for that matter) see Mormons as cultists? If they vote for Mitt Romney, do they see themselves as having to hold their nose and vote for a devout member of a cult?

Frankly, while I disagree with Mr. Matthews on most Evangelicals seeing Catholics as cultist, I think he may be right on their attitudes toward Mormons. And, I would add that I think most Catholics see them that way too.

For the reasons stated, I would like to see us avoid the use of the word cult in reference to Mormons. Candid discussion of our theological differences is essential, and will become more so if Mr. Romney gets the nomination. Faithful Catholics will need clear teaching on the errors of Mormonism. But it will also be true that many on the political left will distort and exaggerate Mormon beliefs for their own political reasons. I hope we will be careful to avoid spreading false and exaggerated claims. Lets critique true Mormonism, not the secular and political left’s notions of it.

Chris Matthews cartoonishly says that Evangelicals consider Mormons (and us) to be cultists. I would like to think he is wrong on both counts and is in fact himself the bigot. And yet I cannot wholly say that the world “cult” is not often used by both Protestants and Catholics in discussions of Mormonism.

What do you think? Do Evangelicals still widely consider us a cult? Do you think Mormons are a cult? Or do you think we should find other ways of describing our differences. Is Chris Matthews right about southern Evangelicals? Or is he bigoted and wrong?


TOPICS: Catholic; Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: media; mormon
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1 posted on 03/15/2012 11:29:28 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Follow above link to view responses to Msgr. Pope’s question.


2 posted on 03/15/2012 11:30:41 AM PDT by NYer (He who hides in his heart the remembrance of wrongs is like a man who feeds a snake on his chest. St)
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To: NYer

Duh...


3 posted on 03/15/2012 11:31:18 AM PDT by DonaldC (A nation cannot stand in the absence of religious principle.)
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To: NYer
There have been several commenters here in the past who have indicated that as a fact Catholics are not Christians. Maybe some of them will come out and play today.
4 posted on 03/15/2012 11:33:03 AM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: NYer

Evangelicals, Catholics, and Mormons consider Chrissie Matthews to be an 0bama0 cultist.


5 posted on 03/15/2012 11:33:15 AM PDT by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: NYer

Mathews is a shrieking liar. He’s even excused JFK raping a nineteen year old intern on Mrs. Kennedy’s bed...anything for the Democrat team.


6 posted on 03/15/2012 11:34:17 AM PDT by kjo (+)
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To: NYer

Right on the Mormons, wrong on the Catholics. It comes down to basic theology and control.

It also comes down to the demands of the group. The sociological definition of ‘cult’ is ‘high demand group’. Mormons shun those who leave, control how members dress, speak, eat, time spent in mettings etc. Evangelicals and Catholics do not.

Theologically, Catholics and Evangelicals, while having differences in theology certainly, DO AGREE on the ‘basics’ the person work and nature of Jesus Christ and the nature of God. They both agree with the historical church creeds.

Momons, OTOH, teach and believe contrary both to historical creeds and the person work and nature of Christ.

Therefore, again, Mormons are rightly called a ‘cult’. Catholics are not.


7 posted on 03/15/2012 11:35:04 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: NYer

Methinks Mr. Matthews is neuronically challenged.


8 posted on 03/15/2012 11:37:02 AM PDT by MIchaelTArchangel (Romney ruined Massachusetts. Now he wants to ruin the nation.)
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To: NYer

Hey Monsigmori...stop skirting the issue and deal with this

A Hydra Is In The Mourning After Pill
OBMACARE is a Hydra a 9 headed snake
which Can only be Destroyed By A Firebrand
by L.J .Keslin http://www.theusmat.com

Of the three GOP candidates remaining opposing Mitt Romney for the presidency Newt Gingrich , Ron Paul, and Rick Santorum. Only one has had the courage to take on a what they call a third rail issue...Eugenics... and has had his character asassinated for it... He’s been characterized as a women hater ,, a religious nut, a one trick pony, .... pummeled from both sides and that is Rick Santorum ,,,,What’s really in Obamacare and

What is Eugenics....? It’s control.... and all that goes with it. Two groups late in the last century led in Eugenic development. The Nazis and the Communists. Few know or remember how the Nazis began. First citing “health risk” “nicht rauchen” baning cigarette smoking, Then terminating Down Syndrome children, and then on to mentally defective children and adults,. then on to besides murdering opponents, races. All done to make the German Reich healthy and last a thousand years.

Eugenics explained in common words is this. And it ain’t just b/c pills, condoms, and womens rights. It’s government policy. :You surrender your individuality to the group to advance the greater good of the group. If your unhealthy or too old and you can’t work for the greater good of the group any more, you are disposed of in the way the group decides. If there are too many people , the group decides no more babiys, kill them. Now lets take the word”group” and change it for the word “ state”. Women surrender their rights when they buy into this monstrosity . That is what’s in Obamacare which is deceptively titled “The Affordable Health Care Act”

.So you go to the MSM (Main Stream Media) the so called “gate keepers” for information about these things and you find closed gates . Either it’s not mentioned at all , or downplayed, and given Obamacom talking point excuses for their reason. An example of this is how the sorcerers in the media were allowed to conjure Eugenics which is an integral part of Obama/Romneycare known as the Affordable Health Care Act magically reduce a 2000 page Hydra , a Greek legendary nine headed venomous snake that must be slain by a firebrand ,and morph it into the mourning after pill and a “womans health care issue.” .

The “gatekeepers” never called it out for what it is ..Obama and his Demo-com HHS department Secretary Selbelius who is a CINO (Catholic In Name Only and should be excommunicated period) .Yet Obamacom tzars who hail from that foreign land, the deep swamp of Acadamica are all preaching the utopian wonders of Eugenics. Why it’s the final solution (remember him ?) population control. Which is part of the Obamacare package.

Obamacare drafters who are exempt from being on Obamacare are on record and actually called it population control and demanded Catholic bishops support it.* Their statements are out there .But not mentioned by the so called gate-keepers but by the AM the alternate media, meaning radio talk shows like Limbaugh’s and websites like Britebart’s Government . Places Obama wants to shut down and will once re-elected *Joel Pollak Britebart Government .

Another issue is its constitutionality imposing a current government position on religious groups. And BTW (by the way) one group has been excluded in the “Affordable Health Care Act” for religious reasons ...the Amish....Again silence from MSM .Demanding changes of acceptance in what was traditional core cultural values held by religious groups and advancing eugenics meaning infantacide and condeming seniors to soylent green centers certainly does have a place in the political discussion.

Once upon a time there were Democrat voices who would warn when pitfalls of bad legislation appeared. Saddly there are no longer any independent voices in todays Democrat Party. Liberal watch dogs like Proxmire or Moynihan are gone . A liberal would be screaming about the benefits from private job creation projects like an iron mine in Wisconsin for a desperate area in need of jobs or the Keystone pipeline transfering oil from Canada to American refineries and support them.

A socialist or communist because of a political agenda,would reject them and they have. In each case the US Senate, and the Wisconsin state (hate the governor) senate dominated by agenda driven democrats killed both projects .They’re not just Democrats but hyphenated Demo-Coms placing their political agenda above the common good.

The Keystone pipeline and iron mine decisions which would have provided employment to thousands and reduced gas prices. Their rejection by the demo-coms should send a signal to the Republican bleeding heart establishment . “Bi-partisanship” doesn’t exist with socialists and to its leading presidential candidate Mitt Romney. Mr Romney should start realizing Obama is a “socialist”.. Everyone including the monthly liberal magazine Newsweek knows he is but Mr Romney just can’t seem to get around to saying it .

Where the Santorum campaign failed was to allow the media to describe the issue and reduce it into popping a pill. Furthurmore in Ohios case you had some local major market so called conservative talk show hosts ridiculing Santorum on this issue not just the drummers (as in venomous snake oil hustlers) on MSM.

Whether Santorum decides to shy away from this issue or re-frame it is up to him and his advisors. But he should be encouraged to re-adjust the focus. One way the Catholic bishops can help is use the mechanisms they have to do so...After all they have shut down parishes which retained the latin mass but can not speakout and act on this despicable movement ? Particularly when that is being shoved on religious groups by the Demo-Coms . Especially when they are ignoring constitutional rights....


9 posted on 03/15/2012 11:37:19 AM PDT by mosesdapoet ("The best way to punish a country is let professors run it. Fredrick the Great p/p)
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To: NYer

The phrase “Hell hath no fury” comes to mind.


10 posted on 03/15/2012 11:39:58 AM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: NYer

As an evangelical Christian I can honestly say I don’t care what Crissy has to say.

He’s an evil person who is hurting America, Christians of all flavors, and of course Jewish people.


11 posted on 03/15/2012 11:40:19 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: NYer

There is certainly a significant proportion of evangelical Protestants who do not regard Catholics as Christian.


12 posted on 03/15/2012 11:40:56 AM PDT by FewsOrange
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To: NYer

In the ‘push comes to shove’ department, I’d say yes on Mormons and no, at least on my evangelical part, on our brothere and sistes in Christ, the Catholics.


13 posted on 03/15/2012 11:41:05 AM PDT by tbpiper
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To: NYer

I regard Chrissy Matthews as a faggedy little Obamaphile cultist.


14 posted on 03/15/2012 11:43:30 AM PDT by ScottinVA (A single drop of American blood for muslims is one drop too many!)
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To: NYer

Here is what I posted at the site.......

I was also raised as a Baptist in the South in the 60s and 70s. I would say that, as there were pretty much no Mormons and darn few Catholics in the area, we almost never thought about them at all. I was taught that they had different beliefs from ourselves, as did every other Protestant denomination. Though some of the things I believed at the time about Mormons and Catholics were incorrect (for instance Papal infalliblity) the same can be said about my beliefs of other denominations as well. And for that matter, I don’t know all there is to know about Baptists......

The first real experience I had with anti-Catholicism came when I moved to New York. I can say the same for antiSemitism. My first experience of anti-Mormon feelings came when I moved to California.


15 posted on 03/15/2012 11:52:43 AM PDT by JoeDetweiler
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To: MIchaelTArchangel
“Methinks Mr. Matthews is neuronically challenged.”

In a doctors office, I saw a magazine for diabetics with an article re: Matthews and diabetes.

Didn't have time to read article or stash magazine in my tote bag as I was just then being called into the dr. office.

I've heard Levin, the Great One, refer to Matthews as somewhat of a drinker. Maybe he was joking. Maybe he wasn't.

I have a relative with diabetes. If he doesn't keep sugar level on key, he says and does weird things. If he drinks, his behaviour is frighting and he could die.

If Matthews is a diabetic, that could explain some of his rants.

Think I'll drop by dr. office and see if I can find the mag.

16 posted on 03/15/2012 11:57:56 AM PDT by hummingbird
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To: NYer

Not they are not all Israel who are of Israel. This is true for all people of Israel, those graphed in or not.

The only issue that decides this question, is do you truely have Him, His presence in your heart? I’ve known/meet peoples from every denomination who don’t and I’ve meet Evangelicals, Mormons and Catholics who do.

He _is_ the _only_ one who knows; He decides, cause he experiences it too; it is a partnership. He measures a man/woman by their heart. A right heart produces fruit and good works without a right heart are a clanging gong.


17 posted on 03/15/2012 12:00:03 PM PDT by veracious
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To: NYer

They are not all Israel who are of Israel. This is true for all people of Israel, those graphed in or not.

The only issue that decides this question, is do you truely have Him, His presence in your heart? I’ve known/meet peoples from every denomination who don’t and I’ve meet Evangelicals, Mormons and Catholics who do.

He _is_ the _only_ one who knows; He decides, cause he experiences it too; it is a partnership. He measures a man/woman by their heart. A right heart produces fruit and good works without a right heart are a clanging gong.


18 posted on 03/15/2012 12:00:56 PM PDT by veracious
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To: Westbrook
Evangelicals, Catholics, and Mormons consider Chrissie Matthews to be an 0bama0 cultist.

most appropriate and diplomatic response in memory.

19 posted on 03/15/2012 12:05:14 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (knowledge puffeth; information deludeth.)
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To: veracious; NYer

The only issue that decides this question, is do you truely have Him, His presence in your heart?

- - - - -
Interesting you list Mormons you know that do, since this is NOT Mormon belief or teaching. They may say something similar or dance around it, but they openly reject a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Mormon Apostle gave a talk at BYU on this very subject:http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843

Also, can you have Jesus in your heart when you believe in a false Jesus, one that is not eternal, not always God, elder brother of Satan, etc.

So, while I do believe Catholics can, Mormons cannot. If they did then they would leave Mormonism in a shot. I’ve seen it over and over again. If you have a relationship with Christ, you cannot stay in Mormonism very long at all, much less believe any of it.


20 posted on 03/15/2012 12:05:26 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: greyfoxx39; Godzilla; ejonesie22; Elsie; svcw; Colofornian; colorcountry; MHGinTN; ...

Ping!


21 posted on 03/15/2012 12:08:36 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: JoeDetweiler
The first real experience I had with anti-Catholicism came when I moved to New York. I can say the same for antiSemitism. My first experience of anti-Mormon feelings came when I moved to California.

That's something a lot of liberals and others don't seem to understand. It's usually people who live with and know a certain group that hate them the most, not those who are largely ignorant of said group. For example, the media always portrays rural folks as the most racist. In my experience, though, I found the most racist whites to be those that lived in cities and other areas with high amounts of blacks.

22 posted on 03/15/2012 12:08:48 PM PDT by WPaCon
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To: NYer
I'm a Christian. I'm not Catholic nor do I follow Arminianism nor Calvinism. Some Calvinist tell me I'm not a Protestant because I don't follow the teaching of John Calvin. I don't want to be labeled Calvinist or Arminian. Rather, I want to be biblical through and through and give every text its due proportion, no matter where it falls. I consider myself a biblicist.

With all that said, My position as a Christian varies from Catholics but not on the basics. That is, we serve the same Lord.

I can't say the same for any other 'false religion.'

But that's just me.

23 posted on 03/15/2012 12:10:34 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: NYer
One of the things about which the media has been exultant during the Republican primaries, is that a majority of self-identifying Catholics are not supporting the hated, knuckle-dragging, social conservative, Santorum and the media has been trumpeting this fact at every opportunity. They're over-joyed.

However, the other side of this coin is that Evangelicals are supporting Santorum and are picking up some of "the slack", so to speak. This is helping Santorum significantly and is responsible in no small part for him kicking Romney's butt in the south and prolonging this primary campaign. This is just killing liberals like Matthews and is the reason for his rant above.

Matthews is essentially saying........"This can't be happening!! I thought you Evangelicals hated Catholics and Catholicism."

Boo-hoo, Chrissy, it is happening. Cry me a river!

24 posted on 03/15/2012 12:26:26 PM PDT by marshmallow (.)
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To: NYer

To the headline: wrong and right


25 posted on 03/15/2012 12:27:01 PM PDT by svcw (CLEAN WATER & Education http://www.longlostsis.com/PI/MayanHelp2012.html)
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To: reaganaut

It seems this way from some perspectives, but I believe George Washington was saved! and he was a Freemason.

True ignorance appears to be different than diregarded truth. However, His hand is obvious thru-out creation, so none can freely claim ignorance to His existance. That is why so many seek, so many directions, to cover that missing relationship.

Those raised in belief, may never have truly sought. Seek with all your heart and you shall find. A luke warm heart will be spewed out. Don’t settling for mere traditions of men, those which condradict His whole word.


26 posted on 03/15/2012 12:29:53 PM PDT by veracious
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To: NYer

I see Catholics as fellow Christians... I see matthews as a satanic minion... any more questions?

LLS


27 posted on 03/15/2012 12:37:02 PM PDT by LibLieSlayer (WOLVERINES!)
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To: veracious

One more set:
There are no Baptists in heaven.
There are no Mormons, ChurchOfChrist, Catholics...
There is just one people, with one Father. Get there!
Be part of a gathering which teaches His word rather than church doctrine.

It is written (paraphrased):
Come out of her, my people. Return onto my ways, my walk, my times.


28 posted on 03/15/2012 12:47:19 PM PDT by veracious
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To: NYer

Has Chrissy Matthews ever been right about anything?


29 posted on 03/15/2012 12:51:17 PM PDT by longhorn too
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To: NYer

Chris Matthews doesn’t understand the difference between a “cult” and “occult”, do technically he is correct... but the way he meant it is wrong.


30 posted on 03/15/2012 12:52:01 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: hinckley buzzard

Speaking as a Protestant, we branched off the root of the Roman church and if it’s a “cult” our faith must be a sub-cult. Mormonism is, whatever it claims, a wholly new religion with what are to Catholics, Protestants, or Orthodox believers some very strange beliefs. That being said, we should all recognize what “major religions” pose the greatest threats to us all and they are, not necessarily in this order, Humanism and Islam. The first is a more immediate threat and the second far more ancient, but both are militant and intent on the destruction of Christianity in general.


31 posted on 03/15/2012 12:52:11 PM PDT by katana (Just my opinions)
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To: Safrguns

Oops... the thread includes Catholics.
I do not equate Catholics with Mormons.
Catholicism is a denomination of Christianity.
Mormonism is a cult.


32 posted on 03/15/2012 12:53:59 PM PDT by Safrguns
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To: NYer

I’m an Evangelical. My Catholic MIL led me to Christ.

I think the opinion of most of my Evangelical peers is that there are born-again Christians in both Evangelical and Catholic churches, and there are also non-believers in both churches. To most Evangelicals, Christianity is defined by your relationship with Jesus Christ and not by your denomination.


33 posted on 03/15/2012 12:56:06 PM PDT by keats5 (Not all of us are hypnotized.)
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To: hinckley buzzard

“There have been several commenters here in the past who have indicated that as a fact Catholics are not Christians. Maybe some of them will come out and play today. “

A Christian is someone who trusts in Christ for their salvation.

Insasmuch as a Roman Catholic trusts in Christ for his salvation, I assume he is a Christian.

However, if he is following Catholic doctrine to a “t” and therefore trusting in the extra good works of Mary or Bartholomew or Dominic or whoever to credit his account and get him into heaven, he is not trusting in Christ, but in Mary or Bartholomew or Dominic. Therefore how can he be a Christian? He is not, at that point, trusting in Christ.

Or if he is trusting in his own works - doing penance to atone for whatever sins he may have committed - then he is also not trusting in Christ.

It all comes down to who your Savior is. Is it your own merit? Is it the merit of another person or persons? Or is it Christ and Him alone?


34 posted on 03/15/2012 1:01:17 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: hinckley buzzard

As for Mormons, I am unaware of any part of their doctrine where they are even taught that Jesus is as described in the Bible. They are taught rather than Jesus is an exalted man who got his own planet; a spirit brother of Satan, no less. They themselves through obedience to certain laws and good works earn themselves a planet of their own to rule as a god. This is nowhere near Christian doctrine, although the name of Jesus is used, and yes, it’s a cult through and through.


35 posted on 03/15/2012 1:03:23 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: NYer
Nobody dislikes Chris more than I, but he's somewhat right here. As a Catholic, I have had dozens of encounters in the South with evangelicals who insist I'm not Christian, not saved, and must pray to statues.


36 posted on 03/15/2012 1:06:39 PM PDT by rickade
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To: hinckley buzzard

Mormonism is definitely a cult. I have mixed feelings about Catholicism. I used to see them as another church, but then I found out (through some Catholic posters here and confirmed by other sources) that the church teaches that mary was without sin and that she NEVER had sex, even after Jesus’ birth.

So the jury is still out with me, but that is very troubling.


37 posted on 03/15/2012 1:09:14 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: NYer

He’s right — for once.


38 posted on 03/15/2012 1:15:00 PM PDT by MayflowerMadam (Don't blame me; I voted for the American.)
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To: cuban leaf
"church teaches that mary was without sin and that she NEVER had sex, even after Jesus’ birth."

Is it really that unbelievable that God wanted his Son to be born of a person without sin and that people can go through life without having sex? More miraculous things have happened.

39 posted on 03/15/2012 1:19:03 PM PDT by ex-snook ("above all things, truth beareth away the victory")
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To: veracious; colorcountry; greyfoxx39; SZonian; SENTINEL

It seems this way from some perspectives

- - - - —
Not when dealing with Mormons and a personal relationship with Christ. I USED TO BE MORMON (see tagline). Not only is a personal relationship with Christ not taught, it is taught AGAINST.

When I was LDS, we used to make fun of Evangelicals who thought they could have a personal relationship with Christ. I’m not talking about 3 or 4 LDS friends, EVERYONE I knew (hundreds) in all my wards, all over BYU, every Mormon I knew thought it was stupid and an insult to God to claim we could have Christ in our hearts, be saved through faith, and have a personal relationship.

Mormons also believe in a COMPLETELY different Christ than Christians do and they are not compatible at all.

So, I not only stand by my statement that is IMPOSSIBLE to have a personal relationship with Christ and remain a Mormon, I suggest you do some research into what the LDS really teach.

I have also pinged some other former Mormons who will tell you the same thing.

FWIW, I was a convert to Mormonism, not raised in it. You are correct they do not seek, or they seek after a false Christ, not the Jesus of the Bible. Thank God, He saved me and saved me from the cult of Mormonism.


40 posted on 03/15/2012 1:23:18 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: ex-snook

Don’t you know? God can save anyone from sin, except Mary. He couldn’t save her before the Cross. He is bound by time.


41 posted on 03/15/2012 1:23:21 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: veracious

Mormons believe they are the ONLY ones who will return to the presence of God the Father (Heaven to Christians, the Celestial Kingdom for Mormons).

Why don’t you do some research and help us expose Mormonism and bring them to Christ?


42 posted on 03/15/2012 1:27:13 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: rickade

Then explain why the South is going for one of the two Catholics running and not the Mormon?


43 posted on 03/15/2012 1:29:18 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: FewsOrange

And a number of Catholics who don’t believe anyone else is Christian.

So what!

Chrissie is trying to stir up the mud, the mud is happy to come out and play.


44 posted on 03/15/2012 1:30:21 PM PDT by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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To: NYer

Divide and conquer. Real smart of this guy to play into Chrissy’s hands.


45 posted on 03/15/2012 2:00:53 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: reaganaut

I agree that this is a doctrine well off the base and we should seek to save anyone who is lost. However, I do not even want to own deciding whether they or another are saved. That is His say, alone.

An easy test: sometimes in service we’ll restate corporately that we believe in Yeshua and in his blood which saved us. This for new believers in the congregation; but to me, if once true, always true. So I’m excited to say it again.

Someone who is lost, will not repeat the statement, unless they’re changing their mind ;}


46 posted on 03/15/2012 2:03:30 PM PDT by veracious
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To: reaganaut

Least of three evils I reckon.


47 posted on 03/15/2012 2:35:49 PM PDT by rickade
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To: veracious

What you don’t seem to get is that Mormonism is an entirely different animal.

I normally don’t go around stating who is saved and who is not, but in the case of Mormonism, it is impossible to accept the Christ of the Bible and remain Mormon. They are completely different. A false Christ leads to a false sense of Salvation.

It goes far beyond Mormons having different doctrine. They redfine simple words like Christ, Salvation, Heaven, God. So to the Christian who doesn’t know better will equate the LDS phrase “Jesus makes it possible for us to be saved” and think they mean the same thing as the Christian does, but in reality they don’t. A proper translation would be “Jesus, our elder brother, showed us how we (through the Mormon church) can obtain our own godhood in the Celestial Kingdom”. Not the same thing at all. Mormons believe that true salvation (not just resurrection which is universal) only comes through their works and membership in the Mormon church, not through faith in Jesus.

Here is a link to a good chart with Mormon vs. biblical terms. utlm.org/onlineresources/terminologymain.htm

Also, there is a tendency for mormons to lie or disemmble to make Mormonism seem more Christian. They call it ‘lying for the Lord’. Here is a post I have posted before about how they don’t answer questions or lie to non-Mormons.

......

The LDS don’t do systematic theology. For years the closest thing was Bruce R. McConkie’s “Mormon Doctrine”. Now that has been thrown under the bus because some of his statements are embarassing to the LDS church even though they have not reputiated anything said in there and it was approved by the Prophet and Apostles and published by the main LDS publishing company (an LDS version of nihil obstat or imprimitur). The LDS use manuals, published every few years, on a rotation for Sunday School, Priesthood/Relief Society and their High School and College religion classes. They are also discouraged from researching on their own or reading old ‘primary sources’. Sadly, they are spoon fed theology in a manner that keeps them from looking too deep. My ‘crime’ as it were was going beyond the manuals given to me and actually trying to make sense and research LDS history and doctrine in order to prove the ‘antis’ were lying.

As to why I lied about LDS beliefs (or dissembled), there is a constantly used phrase/idea that comes down from the leadership of “every member a missionary”. It means that every member is to try to convert people to Mormonism. Couple that with the other oftused meme of “don’t do anything that makes ‘the Church’ look bad” and you have an interesting combination. The “why” gets down to these. It is easier to lie or omit things or twist words than it is to explain what the LDS really believe and risk losing a potential convert or have someone go away thinking less than glowing things about the LDS church.

Every member is expected to find ‘investigators’ (people who would be interested in converting who take the missionary discussions - similar to RCIA). There is also a lot of people who hear things about beliefs but don’t know enough to know what the LDS are saying, that they use different meanings for terms, even though the LDS usually know that Christians mean different things. A typical exchange could go like this...

non - LDS - “I have a lot of Mormon friends, and they are nice people, but don’t Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?”

LDS - No! We don’t believe that at all! Jesus is the only begotten Son of God! Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth. Why don’t you come over for dinner and we will have the missionaries talk to you? There is a set of 6 discussions that they give that shows what we believe.

non-LDS - “Well, ok, but I read somewhere that Mormons believe they will become Gods”

LDS - “That was probably written by someone who has a grudge against the Church. They probably are one of the ones who gets paid to badmouth the Church or someone who couldn’t live by the principles of the Church so they left or they were offended by someone in their ward.

Ok, lets parse this. Notice how many times “the Church” is used. For the LDS it is all about “the Church”. LDS ‘testimonies’ often start out with “I know the Church is true”.

Then there is the automatic denial that Jesus and Satan are brothers. We have seen it here on FR even. Now, all LDS know that their church teaches Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers. So why would you get a resounding “NO”? Because it makes their theology look silly. By stating “No” the LDS are lying to you, but they are thinking “Well they aren’t flesh brothers, just spirit brothers like we all are, Jesus is our Elder brother”. The other day an LDS came on one of these threads and stated “Jesus and Lucifer aren’t brothers, as if by Mary!”. Notice the subtlety of it. “As if by Mary” implying they aren’t physical brothers (which no one claimed). But they left out That Lucifer was the second born and Jesus was the firstborn of the spirit children.

Next we come to what would appear to be a rebuttal to the claim Jesus and Satan are brothers. “Jesus is the only begotten Son of God!” what they are not telling you is that they mean it in a literal sense. Jesus and Satan are SPIRIT brothers (like all of us) but Jesus is God’s physical son, God came down, had sex with Mary and conceived Jesus. So it isn’t a rebuttal at all and the LDS know that. They are intentionally twisting words to make you think they don’t believe Jesus and Satan are Spirit brothers.

Next Phrase - “Joseph Smith saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and they said that all other churches had some problems and Joseph needed to start a Church that was the same as the one when Jesus Christ was on the Earth.” This is referring to the “First Vision” (of which there are several contradictory accounts) and the Great Apostasy. The LDS will tone down things said about other Christians. In the first vision account, Smith isn’t told that other churches ‘had problems’ he was told “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,104-1-3-4,00.html

“All wrong”, “Corrupt” and Creeds an abomination are not the same as “some problems” and the LDS know that. But they will soften it in order to not scare people off or to put the LDS church in a ‘better light’.

Next - about becoming Gods. Notice the LDS response is to go down a rabbit hole, rather than addressing the comment. Instead they lead the person to believe that the source was unreliable, or written by someone who had something to gain (money) or a former Mormon with a grudge. The question itself isn’t even addressed (lying by omission). It also causes the person to think that they might be wrong and that the LDS don’t believe that, even though the LDS person knows they do.

Finally, the invitation to meet with the missionaries. There is an assumption by many that these are people who know more about Mormonism than the average member and that isn’t true either. Most men and quite a few women serve LDS missions (I nearly did). They don’t have special knowledge. They also don’t tell you is the goal of those 6 discussions is to get you baptized Mormon and there is pressure put on you to read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, make commitments and convert. Those 6 discussions aren’t just a summary of LDS beliefs, they are the requirements for conversion and that is their goal. But they don’t tell you that, they make it sound like this is just a friendly way of talking to knowledgeable people about what the LDS believe.

Also, there is the doctrine of ‘line upon line, precept upon precept’ or “milk before meat”, that coverts are only told doctrines when they are spiritually ready to hear them. The missionary discussions are the barest of milk. You learn one set of things in them, and then after you convert you start to learn the rest of LDS theology. Then after a year of faithful membership (sometimes more) you get to go to the LDS temple and learn the ‘meat’ doctrines and are sworn to secrecy (used to have to swear blood oaths).
****

Don’t fall into the trap of equating Mormonism in any way with any other type of Christian (or Christian claiming) group. I have spent much of the last 20 years since I left helping others see the errors of Mormonism, getting them to leave Mormonism and helping them transition into Christianity. The HARDEST thing for them to usually accept is that we can have a personal relationship with Jesus and that we are saved by our faith, not works.

Spend some time on the Mormon threads here and you will see how Mormons cannot in any way, ever be considered Christians or have a personal relationship with Jesus while remaining a faithful Mormon.


48 posted on 03/15/2012 2:36:17 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: rickade

I don’t think that at all. I know many Christians who believe it is possible to be Catholic and Christian. Whereas, they do not believe it is possible to be Mormon and Christian.

As an Evangelical I will gladly vote for either Santorum or Newt, but never Romney. And it isn’t a ‘lesser of three evils’ thing at all.


49 posted on 03/15/2012 2:38:35 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: reaganaut; veracious
Why don’t you do some research and help us expose Mormonism and bring them to Christ?

The following article was posted to the forum on March 9.

Is Mormonism a Christian Denomination?

50 posted on 03/15/2012 2:38:42 PM PDT by NYer (He who hides in his heart the remembrance of wrongs is like a man who feeds a snake on his chest. St)
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