Posted on 03/18/2012 6:38:49 PM PDT by EnglishCon
Afterall the fall is very foundational to the Bible stories since it was only after that first sin that death and destruction entered into God’s perfectly created world [both Earth and Universe ~ both also showing signs of winding down not up ~ devolution not evoolution].
exDemMom “Yet there is nothing I do as a scientist which is not explainable using natural laws.”
OH really now - for pity’s sake - please use natural laws to explain abstract thinking just for starters.
After that please again use Natural Law to explain language, self-awareness, morals and ethics, ~ you know everything that makes mankind unique among all the world’s animal kingdom.
And then use natural law again to explain how birds and insects figured out astronomical navigation and how dolphins perfected sonar and and and...
So many ways to respond. First Peter instructs us as to how the Heavenly Father counts time after Peter states there are three different heaven/earth ages. (That is what the word 'world' as Peter describes means.) Peter's WORDS alone says this earth is at least a few thousand years older than 6,000.
IIPeter 3 the whole chapter begins with the assertion that even the holy prophets were aware of the distinction of ages. And Peter repeatedly says be not ignorant... of...
Moses does not elaborate on the so called span of time from Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, but other prophets do by the events that occurred, not by periods of time. But Moses does give a hint about time before this flesh age in Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, AND the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
God said after day 3, day 4 day 5, day 6 what He made was good. And before the Adam was formed we are told there was a symbolic tree of knowledge of good and evil. The flesh man Adam did indeed 'sin' or fall, but he was not the first to fall, the devil rebelled and drew a third of the sons of God to his side and that heaven/earth world/age ended. Which is why Christ told Nicodemus to 'see' the kingdom of God the soul/spirit must be born of woman. The devil has already been judge and is awaiting his death sentence. (Along with a numbered of his chief followers which refused to be born of woman in this flesh age.)
Only Genesis 1:2 indicates the results of a reaction between good and evil. And through each of the days of creation up to the fifth describes the level of destruction that occurred when Lucifer rebelled. Isaiah 14:12- and Ezekiel 28:12- specifically describe the first rebel. Genesis 6 describes the 'fallen' angels taking the daughters of Adam which resulted in Noah's flood.
Moses does not say one word about the creation/formation of the 'soul/spirit', but does say the Adam was not alive until the breath of life which means soul was breathed into the Adam's nostrils.
~ which BTW caused many otherwise ‘orthodox’ believers to begin subscribing to either some mysterious un-defined gap theory in Gen 1:2 and/or theistic long ages combination of evolution / creation. Sorry no sale here, even if you could explain away these young-ages natural clocks: 101 Evidences for a Young Age of the Earth...And the Universe http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth
I have nothing to sell. I am comfortable with the Writings of those elected to lay out God's plan and purpose. Genesis 1:2 says there was a flood, and Peter says there was a flood in that world (age) that was. Neither scripture is addressing Noah's flood. I do not know who came up with the young earth claim but even with the amount of time we can calculate this earth is thousands of years older than 6,000. Day one alone would be according to Peter a thousand years. AND we are told that at the end of 7 days Genesis 2:4 THERE WERE GENERATIONS, and that was before the formation of Adam and then later Eve.
Here’s another very simple question for you since you take most of the Bible at face value. When God referred Job to behemoth in Job 40 or 41 ‘with a tail like a cedar’ was God asking Job about an animal that Job had no knowledge of or was it because at some point after the fall mankind [and Job] shared the Earth with dinosaurs? Afterall the fall is very foundational to the Bible stories since it was only after that first sin that death and destruction entered into God’s perfectly created world [both Earth and Universe ~ both also showing signs of winding down not up ~ devolution not evoolution].
Evolution is pure fantasy, reason, because of all the intervention God Himself did to protect the birth line to Christ. This would not happen if we got here through the random selective process.
As far as Job is concerned, the devil, challenged the Heavenly Father that he could get Job to curse the LORD. Then after 30 + chapters of Job philosophizing with some friends, in chapter 38 God answered Job 2 "Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou Me.
The best I can answer your question about what the LORD asked of Job would be Ecclesiastes 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it my be said, 'See, this is new?' it hath been already of OLD time, which was before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to dome with those that shall come after.
Were all the souls/spirits created in Genesis 1:1????
I don’t see anything in any of the scriptures you’ve listed where one could infer neither a Genesis 1:2 flood nor long ages. I admit some scriptures are veiled to vex the unbelievers and to cause the believers to meditate on that which may, at first, seem puzzling. I could agree that it is unknown how much time transpired from creation week until biting on the forbidden fruit, but one would think that would be a very short elapsed time indeed.
MOST IMPORTANTLY, we must never ‘add to nor subtract from’ [Rev 22:11] - from the Holy Scriptures that which is simply not there.
2 Peter 3 (King James Version)
“1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying , Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep , all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of , that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished : 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store , reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat , the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up . 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved , what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved , and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ? 13 Nevertheless we , according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest , as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before , beware lest ye also , being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever . Amen. “
For me the best swag [scientific wild-a— guess] for ‘long ages’ as they appear with sunlight and radio isotopes are simply apparent ages that are leftover fingerprints of the singularity event of the creation week:
Whereby Natural Law was either put aside on hold or had not yet been effected in order to accomplish the supernatural events of the 6 day expansion of everything out of nothing [ex nihilo].
Each day then could give the appearance of long ages ~ say 3.5 to 4 billion years apparent age for day 1 and each subsequent day resulting in half again apparent age to result in roughly 13.7 to 15.7 billion years of elapsed apparent ‘long’ ages.
After all, the various creatures would need to also be in a mature age-state in order to be fruitful and multiply. The chicken or the egg question had to be the chicken b/c ‘eggs’ don’t hatch and raise themselves w/o proper care.
oops
Let’s say 7 to 8 billion years of elapsed apparent age for day 1;
day 2 ~ 3.5 to 4 billion years
and so on thru 6 days...
Exodus 20:
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Genesis 1:2 AND the earth *became* ( I am NOT adding *became*, because that is what the verb should literally be.) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. (deep what?)
AND the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the WATERS.
Genesis 1:2 is describing the condition the earth became. When exactly we are not told how long ago this upheaval took place. Now the English translation that gave us without form means 'waste', and The Heavenly Father had Isaiah definitely address the condition the earth was created. Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; HE hath established it, He created it NOT in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD;
and there is none other.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth:
I said unto the seed of Jacob, 'Seek ye Me in vain:' I the LORD speak of righteousness, I declare things that are right....
MOST IMPORTANTLY, we must never ‘add to nor subtract from’ [Rev 22:11] - from the Holy Scriptures that which is simply not there.
Actually it is Revelation 22:18-19 wherein the commandment is given to NOT add and NOT take away from the words of the prophecy. Ignoring what is Written would be subtracting. And Revelation 22:18-19 is not the first place this commandment was given. Moses penned it first in Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word with I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. and Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
2 Peter 3 (King James Version) “1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying , Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep , all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of , that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished : 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store , reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat , the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up . 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved , what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved , and the elements shall melt with fervent heat ? 13 Nevertheless we , according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest , as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before , beware lest ye also , being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever . Amen. “
Verse 5 of IIPeter means now what it meant when Peter was inspired to write it down... For this they willingly are ignorant of,
that by the word of God the heavens were of OLD, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (Genesis 1:2 deep .... what? WATER!!!)
6 Whereby the world that then WAS, being overflowed with water, perished:
This is NOT talking about Noah's flood because every time Noah's flood is discussed, described or mentioned there is the notation of 8 souls saved.
Jeremiah 4: beginning in verse 22 gets to the 'heart' of level of understanding what took place in Genesis 1:2
22 For My people is foolish, they have not known ME: they are sottish children, (sottish means stupid)and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Knowledge about what? verse 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was *without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was NO man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27For thus hath the LORD said, "The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
For me the best swag [scientific wild-a— guess] for ‘long ages’ as they appear with sunlight and radio isotopes are simply apparent ages that are leftover fingerprints of the singularity event of the creation week: Whereby Natural Law was either put aside on hold or had not yet been effected in order to accomplish the supernatural events of the 6 day expansion of everything out of nothing [ex nihilo]. Each day then could give the appearance of long ages ~ say 3.5 to 4 billion years apparent age for day 1 and each subsequent day resulting in half again apparent age to result in roughly 13.7 to 15.7 billion years of elapsed apparent ‘long’ ages. After all, the various creatures would need to also be in a mature age-state in order to be fruitful and multiply. The chicken or the egg question had to be the chicken b/c ‘eggs’ don’t hatch and raise themselves w/o proper care.
Well don't forget the 'creation' was told to *replenish* Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and *replenish* the earth, and subdue it:..... this word 'replenish' gets the same disregard and treatment by the majority as that word Paul uses .... predestination/predestinated. Sure would not want to add to or take away.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.