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Vanity: Genesis As Science, Chapter 1
03/18/2012 | EnglishCon

Posted on 03/18/2012 6:38:49 PM PDT by EnglishCon

A few people asked me to write this, after a couple of comments I made on another thread. The first few chapters of Genesis are, with minimal mental gymnastics, a clear and accurate statement of science, as we understand it today.

I am not talking from any particular creed here. Though a Catholic, (and without any authority!), I am from a background of a devout Protestant and much less devout Jewish culture who is, like many people, simply looking for answers. My training was as a Biochemist, at a time when we were first starting to map the genome. So, feel free to take this with a grain of salt, or a bargeload. This is not doctrine. Not meant to persuade or compell people to my views. Heck, I am still working out my views! My faith is solid. So is, to me, the evidence.

It is simply to analyse Genesis under the same scientific method that nuclear physics is examined. I will, for clarity, be using the King James Bible, available on-line at http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvGene.html, as it is the version most people both know and accept. I will be simplifying some concepts - not losing the core concept, but trying to make them accessible. And please forgive me for any formatting screw-ups, I am more used to writing and passing things on to editors!

Genesis 1

1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Verse 3 is the core of the story here. "Let there be light." According to current cosmological theories, roughly 13.7 billion years ago, there was nothing at all. Without form and void in truth - there was no space, no time, nothing. Then that nothngness exploded. Why? We haven't got a clue. While we know it happened since the universe's background microwave radiation hum confirms that, We don't know why. We can never know why. Yet we know that the dark, formless universe exploded for no reason, creating it, and by extension us. We are told why, the word was spoken, and the universe in all it's glory was created.

6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Stars don't come from nothing. Nor do planets. We can see the slow, steady aggregation of gases into stars. We have pictures, again testifying to the glory of God. Stars form from clouds of hydrogen gas. The heavier elements get spun out and away from the protostar. Eventually, the star's gravitational field gets strong enough to light the star. It is another flare of light, with the sudden solar wind forcing the light gases well out and starting random aggregations of heavier elements spinning and collecting. Getting bigger while orbiting the star. Outer planets catch a lot of the gas blasted away when the star ignites. Inner planets are looking at the heavier stuff that doesn't shift much under light pressure.

9: And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10: And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11: And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12: And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13: And the evening and the morning were the third day.

This is a twofer. A spinning ball of molten rock eventually cools down, though it keeps on spinning. There is water there. It can't escape, gravity is too strong. Something that hydrogen can do, water can not. It simply stays in the air as vapor, until the surface temperature cools to a level where it can condense and land. Then, of course, it finds the lowest level it can. You know the phrase "Water finds it's own level."

Our original atmosphere was totally unbreathable. That is in the rock record, not a guess. A mix of Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide and Methane, a teeny bit of sulfur, with a tiny bit of Hydrogen and a mass of water vapor thrown in. Genesis mentions the seas for a reason. All life comes from the sea. The first life to creep out of the sea and onto the shore was plants.

14: And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16: And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17: And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18: And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19: And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

OK, for this one I have to hit more rogue science than accepted science. I apologise for that. Roughly 3 billion years ago, after photosynthesis started, we got hit, hard. A huge blast of molten rock headed into orbit from the Pacific Basin like a homesick meteor and aggregated around our satellite. It is slightly rogue, but we know that lunar rock and Earth rock are identical. We have been there and checked. The rocks are identical.

20: And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21: And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22: And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

Every last living organism comes from the sea. Our blood chemistry proves it conclusively. Whether iron based or copper/magnesium based, if I take 10cc of blood from you, I can guarantee that the salt proportion is identical to the sea a couple of billion years or so ago. Again, there is no guess work involved, we have seas that have been dry for that long for comparison of the proportions. God is here clearly stating that we came from the sea. No get outs, no do overs. We even, if you want to be slightly fanciful, have a nod to dinosaurs. After all, they, or at least some of them, eventually became winged fowl.

24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25: And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

This is the difficult one. One that I have problems with, since evolution and this statement of the Word seem at first glance to be at odds. So I am going to repeat something. Forgive me for stretching slightly to make a point.

We don't breathe water. Yet we came from the sea - that is from both the Word itself and the evidence as we understand it. We see random action. He does not. By definition God gets no surprises, he sees the consequences of everything. As a side note, that must be boring. Never a single surprise unless you deliberately don't look. No wonder he gave us free will! (Sure, I know. Putting human motivations and limitations on the Lord is demeaning. It is also tempting.)

Still, look at the order we are given. Fish, Fowl, every other living thing third. The classic chain of evolution. Plants first and so basic that they are every living thing's meat. Without plants, we simply die. Fish to reptiles/amphibians. Reptiles to birds and mammals. Mammals to primacy under God.

This was fun to write. Difficult, as I am more a biosciences person than a physicist, but fun. If there is sufficient interest I will do the same for Genesis 2.

Once more, I want to repeat. I don't seek converts to my viewpoint. How can one do so, when their viewpoint is "This makes sense but I am guessing the mind of the unknowable here." If you firmly believe that the world was created 6000 years ago as it is, may His peace and blessing be upon you, and I apologise for wasting your time. Part of this is seeking to explain things to myself.

Yet I want to pre-emptively defend myself from some of the more common comments, as I am not a total fool. The universe, and all that is in it, works through fixed and immutable laws, as far as we are aware. Shift the numeric value of any major constant by under 1% and we are a dust of sub atomic particles. The presence of constants themselves are profound indicators of the creator. One of my professors, way back when university was a place to learn and not an indoctrination center, said the mere fact that universal constants exist is one of the strongest arguments for God.

By their works shall you know them. We are told that. By the Lord's works shall you know him. He laid out, in terms a person who has never heard of an electron or the speed of light or Planck's constant can understand, where we came from and how.

Thank you for reading. May he bless and uplift us all.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History; Religion & Culture; Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: discussion; evolution; gagdadbob; genesis; notasciencetopic; onecosmosblog; realscience; science; truescience
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1 posted on 03/18/2012 6:39:01 PM PDT by EnglishCon
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To: EnglishCon

Thanks for writing this. You have put into words, far better than could I, thoughts I’d had for a number of years. The Genesis story mirrors current levels of understanding to a degree I find implausible to be accidental. God is wonderful, His creation vast; our understanding shallow at best.


2 posted on 03/18/2012 6:45:48 PM PDT by Islander7 (There is no septic system so vile, so filthy, the left won't drink from to further their agenda)
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To: EnglishCon

Thanks for your writing!


3 posted on 03/18/2012 6:56:31 PM PDT by MNDude
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To: EnglishCon
"Then that nothngness exploded. Why? We haven't got a clue."

God gave us a clue. He did it. From a strictly scientific viewpoint, tell us how hot of a temperature was created at "The Big Bang". If that did not sterilize the universe, I don't know what would. Even with all of the nutrients and organics available, life was only able to exist because God created it.

4 posted on 03/18/2012 6:57:06 PM PDT by BipolarBob (When do the salmon return to Capistrano?)
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To: EnglishCon
Good job, FRiend! You make a lot more sense than Stephen Hawking and all the other acolytes of atheism. I refuse to believe that it all came from nothing, that it's all the result of chance, or the working out of natural physical processes.

Put another way, I refuse to believe that such achievements as the Mozart Requiem, Handel's Messiah and Beethoven's Ninth Symphony are nothing more than the residue of some cosmic hiccup.



Nos genuflectitur ad non princeps sed Princeps Pacem!

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)

5 posted on 03/18/2012 6:57:58 PM PDT by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines RVN 1969 - St. Michael the Archangel defend us in Battle!)
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To: Islander7

The Lord doesn’t speak to me often, thankfully. Yet someone said “Write this.”
I don’t really write to educate - I write to get paid normally. Sort of a whore with a keyboard, if you like (the image makes me giggle at least!). But sometimes, you know, you write for a better reason.

Just because.


6 posted on 03/18/2012 6:59:34 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: BipolarBob

Well said. That is our only clue. The monobloc (ok, it is a degraded theory but easier to visuallize) exploded when it did for a reason. The reason was the Word.


7 posted on 03/18/2012 7:02:46 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: EnglishCon

Thank you!! My brother and I have had several discussions about this very topic and the limits on our education in the sciences holds us back a bit. (He was an art major who somehow became a cop, I have an MBA and am a banker by trade.) I took the liberty of emailing a copy of your post to him and look forward to his response.

The Lord be with you!


8 posted on 03/18/2012 7:03:22 PM PDT by RebelBanker (May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.)
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To: ConorMacNessa

My thanks -

I include the art made of stone. The cathedrals, made by illiterates that are a joy to God. The farmers, who know the cycle set on day one by the Lord will lead to crops in the fullness of time. Parents, who know that they will be blessed in time.

All of them art. All of them expressions of joy.


9 posted on 03/18/2012 7:06:48 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: EnglishCon
The bible is not a science book and should not be used as one. That the general order of creation generally conforms with orthodox science is remarkable to say the least.

In Genesis, God takes credit for creation and explains it in a manner suitable for a primitive people to understand. Exactly how he did it, he doesn't say. If he did say, there wouldn't be enough space on earth for all the hard disks needed to contain a precise description of creation.

10 posted on 03/18/2012 7:08:22 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301

It was actually one of the things that pulled me back to belief.

You know the saying about co-incidence. I found I could simply not reject this as co-incidence. There is stuff that happens, and there is stuff written a few thousand years ago that explains what we know.

Never understand why people reject God for lack of evidence when it is all around us. We live in the evidence.


11 posted on 03/18/2012 7:14:28 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: EnglishCon

A couple of things that would make your story more powerful.

First, mention the level of science that existed at time of the writing of the Bible. Since non-believers insist the Bible is made up, what scientific knowledge existed then that would have possibly caused the “writers” to think that the entire story began with a flash, that the earth was covered with water and the waters receded to form land, and that life began small, and got larger and larger until man appear. An awfully lot of lucky guesses for such an unscientific society.

And second, following the non believers idea that it was all made up, how come no other religions offers anything that remotely resembles what science today says happened? Hindus are a good example. Why does no other religions story of creation even come close the the current accepted scientific version?

The ‘writers’ of the Bible, with absolutely no science to guide them, made an incredible number of lucky guesses - or they had Somebody give them the answers.


12 posted on 03/18/2012 7:30:26 PM PDT by I cannot think of a name ( i)
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To: EnglishCon

As to your remaining conundrum concerning the time involved for Creation: Time is relative according to Einstein. The amount of time it took for these events to transpire depends greatly upon the perspective of the individual relating the events. Keep in mind what God says about his relationship with time so primitive (relative to us) people could understand: A thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years. It sounds a bit to me like He is not governed by linear time as we are.


13 posted on 03/18/2012 7:31:07 PM PDT by stefanbatory (Insert witty tagline here)
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To: fso301

Actually, want to add something about that gloriously infuriating book.

First time I read the Bible, I was bored. It was like porn without the visuals. “X begat Y, Y begat Z.”
Then I read it again. The second time round, I got a lot of negative commands. “Thou shalt not ....” I mean, seriously, it was worse than my mother!
Then I read it again. And again. And again. No one said I was smart.
And I noticed. It ain’t a book. It is a users manual for how to be human and live with God. I don’t know if I got some freakish magical copy that changes the text on the page, or if I got the intent - finally.
Now I read it for pleasure.


14 posted on 03/18/2012 7:33:46 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: EnglishCon

I read a very intriguing opinion the other day, in which a woman imagines that God revealed the entire evolution of the universe from the time of the Big Bang on, until the formation of the solar system and evolution of life. But the primitive people to whom God revealed the scientific history had no clue what was revealed to them. Their interpretation of what they didn’t understand became the creation story of Genesis.


15 posted on 03/18/2012 7:34:51 PM PDT by exDemMom (Now that I've finally accepted that I'm living a bad hair life, I'm more at peace with the world.)
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To: fso301
Exactly how he did it, he doesn't say.

Look at Genesis I:11-12 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, ... , And the earth brought forth grass, ..."

It seems quite simple.

16 posted on 03/18/2012 7:38:15 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: stefanbatory

If you look at the timeline, it is a pretty smooth curve.

I simply cannot imagine the mind of a being to which a million years is still “Now.” Sure, could fake it, but truth rules on these threads.


17 posted on 03/18/2012 7:38:46 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: EnglishCon

>>By their works shall you know them. <<

Prepare for stoning. Rational discourse is a nono when the endgame is “am I a monkey’s uncle?”

Many of the most scientifically educated the Freepers learned this the hard way. They have joined the choir in the vestile. This FReeper is no more... (etc.)

I will utter the URL of The Site that Dare not be Spoken: http://www.darwincentral.org/

Scientific facts from scientists, many of whom are Christians, most of whom are Conservative (to their core).

Tread lightly...


18 posted on 03/18/2012 7:40:43 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Spoiler Alert! The secret to Terra Nova: THEY ARE ALL DEAD!!!)
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To: stefanbatory
Opps, you reminded me of something I meant to include in my comment just before yours.

A guy's talking to God. He says, “what's a million years to you?” God says, “a second.” The guy says, “what's a million bucks to you?” God says, “a penny.” The guy then says, “can I have a million bucks.” God answers, “sure, in a second.”

How could we possibly know, or even conceive, what time means to God? The ‘day’ business is just something included so that our feeble little minds would have a measurement to grasp.

19 posted on 03/18/2012 7:41:17 PM PDT by I cannot think of a name ( i)
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To: freedumb2003

I have faith in the good faith and belief of my fellow FReepers.

OK, most of them. Know what you mean - bumped noses with a few before. That I can cope with.


20 posted on 03/18/2012 7:46:28 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: EnglishCon
First time I read the Bible, I was bored. It was like porn without the visuals. “X begat Y, Y begat Z.” Then I read it again. The second time round, I got a lot of negative commands. “Thou shalt not ....” I mean, seriously, it was worse than my mother! Then I read it again. And again. And again. No one said I was smart. And I noticed. It ain’t a book. It is a users manual for how to be human and live with God. I don’t know if I got some freakish magical copy that changes the text on the page, or if I got the intent - finally. Now I read it for pleasure.

Your's is a common experience.

21 posted on 03/18/2012 7:48:54 PM PDT by fso301
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To: EnglishCon

I have done my part - informed the world at large there are many, MANY, Conservatives who understand science, know what a Scientific Theory is and understand and embrace the differing yet related and adjacent thought quadrants of science and faith.

Prepare for the standard bombardment, which I will ignore.

This is my last post on this thread — I hope you find the enlightenment you seek. It shall only come from the enlightened.


22 posted on 03/18/2012 7:52:36 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Spoiler Alert! The secret to Terra Nova: THEY ARE ALL DEAD!!!)
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To: dr_lew

You know something?

As a bioscience nerd, grass is amazing to me. About 30,000 years ago, some breeds of grass started exhibiting a thing called polyploidy. A duplication of their complete genetic code, that made the grains bigger.

Think of the odds of a single plant with that mutation surviving. If you have difficulty, plant some corn and watch the racoons eat it the day before you intend to harvest.

That was somethint impossible. Yet it lead to modern culture.


23 posted on 03/18/2012 7:54:20 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: EnglishCon

A keeper!


24 posted on 03/18/2012 7:56:38 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: EnglishCon
Genesis 1 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Before one begins to make verse 3 the point a couple of things need be addressed. Genesis 1:1 is a declaration, without any time signature as to when the beginning began, or how long.

Verse 2 begins with that big word AND meaning a continuation and explanation of what happened to the 'state' of the perfect creation. Now other elected writers pen much about verse 2 such as Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Solomon, Moses in the book of Job, Peter, Paul and Christ made mention to verse 2 in referencing the 'foundation' as translated in the New Testament.

Verse two describes as Peter calls the heaven/earth that WAS being flooded in IIPeter 3, as does Moses. Genesis 1:2 describe the rebellion of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12..... and Ezekiel 28:12 .....

What Genesis 1:3 does is describe an 'environmental' clean up to make this earth once again inhabitable. Peter says in IIPeter 3 there are 3 different heaven/earth ages and we in the flesh are in the world that is now. And Peter also explains how God keeps time, that a day with the LORD is as a thousand years.... so that would mean the 8 days of creation took 8 thousand years.

25 posted on 03/18/2012 7:57:56 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: dr_lew
Look at Genesis I:11-12 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, ... , And the earth brought forth grass, ..." It seems quite simple.

So, you believe the earth sits atop some structure and that the sun moves around the earth. When literally interpreting scripture, you cannot pick and choose

Psa 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

26 posted on 03/18/2012 7:58:03 PM PDT by fso301
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To: freedumb2003

Let them bomb.

In all honesty, I don’t write for non paying sites unless I get a call to do so - and it is annoying as it disrupts my work.
This time I got one. Two words - write this.

Sometimes I wish he’d just leave me alone ....


27 posted on 03/18/2012 8:01:04 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: Just mythoughts

Can you expand please, FRiend?

Partially it is 3 AM here, partially I have zero desire to misinterpret you.


28 posted on 03/18/2012 8:04:16 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: Just mythoughts; EnglishCon
Verse two describes as Peter calls the heaven/earth that WAS being flooded in IIPeter 3, as does Moses. Genesis 1:2 describe the rebellion of Lucifer described in Isaiah 14:12..... and Ezekiel 28:12 ..... What Genesis 1:3 does is describe an 'environmental' clean up to make this earth once again inhabitable. Peter says in IIPeter 3 there are 3 different heaven/earth ages and we in the flesh are in the world that is now. And Peter also explains how God keeps time, that a day with the LORD is as a thousand years.... so that would mean the 8 days of creation took 8 thousand years.

Also consider early cooling with respect to waters covering the face of the earth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Early_Earth Then consider late heavy bombardment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Heavy_Bombardment

29 posted on 03/18/2012 8:07:42 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301

Ah - I have always considered the waters of heaven to be the gas tides, driven by the stars, that created the sun and the planets. In a metaphorical sense it is true - there is a flood of gass and heavier elements.

Sure, it ain’t orthodox, but what you expect from a three religion guy!


30 posted on 03/18/2012 8:14:17 PM PDT by EnglishCon (Gingrich/Santorum 2012.)
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To: ConorMacNessa

>>Put another way, I refuse to believe that such achievements as the Mozart Requiem, Handel’s Messiah and Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony are nothing more than the residue of some cosmic hiccup.<<

So you admit to (and admire) stochastism in the world as we know it.

The “spark of genius” shall remain under the control of the Lord. But the general lengthy progression by generations is a clear spokesmodel for the observed effects of TToE.

You are clearly the latest data point on an accelerated line of smart people who sochastically continued thought evolution.

My brothers and sisters are pretty sharp so I like to think my ability to analyze has a bit of that same general theoretical impetus. Or, more accurately, is representative of it.

Either that or you have some ‘splainin to on how God chose you to be smart...

(btw: this is NOT a comment on the thread in general. After a 1st or 2nd comment my rule is to be mute.


31 posted on 03/18/2012 8:16:18 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (Spoiler Alert! The secret to Terra Nova: THEY ARE ALL DEAD!!!)
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To: EnglishCon
"...We see random action. He does not.."

"...let's turn to a passage in Heller's Creative Tension. He points out that recent developments in deterministic chaos theory have demonstrated that "there are strong reasons to believe that a certain amount of randomness is indispensable for the emergence and evolution of organized structures.... Randomness is no longer perceived as a competitor of God, but rather as a powerful tool in God's strategy of creating the world."

"He quotes the physicist Paul Davies, who wrote that,

"God is responsible for ordering the world, not through direct action, but by providing various potentialities which the physical universe is then free to actualize. In this way, God does not compromise the essential openness and indeterminism of the universe, but is nevertheless in a position to encourage a trend toward good. Traces of this subtle and indirect influence may be discerned in the progressive nature of biological evolution, for example, and the tendency for the universe to self-organize into a richer variety of ever more complex forms."

"In a similar vein, he quotes A. R. Peacocke: "On this view God acts to create the world through what we call 'chance' operating within the created order, each stage of which constitutes the launching pad for the next."

"So the bottom line is that if your life were totally planned, it couldn't be. In other words, the more you attempt to tamp down randomness and chance, the more you are likely to create disorder. To put it another way, there is a higher principle at work, which uses randomness and chaos to break up evolutionary impasses and "lure" the system toward its own destiny, so to speak. We must surrender to this destiny, as each of us, to paraphrase Sri Aurobindo, is a "unique problem of God."

"Or you could say that "the answer is the disease that kills curiosity," or that twoness resolves the problem of oneness through the discovery and synthesis of eternal threeness, in which Love abides. ....."

bttt

32 posted on 03/18/2012 8:17:55 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Andrew loved the battle and he knew the stakes." ~ Mark Levin 3/2/12)
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To: EnglishCon
No, no, no!

Your entire note makes Genesis verse 1 a lie.

If Genesis verse 1 is a lie, the account of creation is a lie.

If the account of creation is a lie (and if your theory were correct it would be) all of Genesis is a lie, and so also is the whole Bible. Be honest and say so.

One has two options:

(1) By man came death
or:
(2) By death came man.

I choose (1) and therefore I believe in The God and His progressively revealed Word.

Your scheme necessarily requires that you have chosen (2), and hence do not believe in God's Word; hence you do not believe in the God of the Bible.

I am a reasonably competent Ph. D. in the physical chemistry of inorganic oxides and semiconductor materials, and a successful scientist in both academics and the commercial world. I believe true science supports a six-day literal creation as exactly described in Genesis. I believe as well that the entrance of sin and death into a perfectly created world was due to deliberate disobedience of The God's single, non-negotiable command by our federal and genetic head, under the agitation of the Consummate Liar, who is also the source of the evolution falsehood.

I was not there at creation, therefore I believe.

Prove that I am wrong, if you can (and you can not).

I reject your "science" and repudiate your doctrine. Evolution and Genesis are not miscible and cannot be harmonized. Day-age theory is a farce.

Wishing a greater faith for you --

33 posted on 03/18/2012 8:19:34 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Heb. 11:5 But without faith, it is impossible to please him (The God))
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To: EnglishCon
Can you expand please, FRiend? Partially it is 3 AM here, partially I have zero desire to misinterpret you.

Genesis 1:2 describes the end of what Peter calls the heaven/earth world (age) that WAS... The rebellion of the devil wherein all life was destroyed as described by Jeremiah 4:22-27 no life survived that destruction. IIPeter 3:5-6-7-8 Peter is not the only writer that penned what is now a mystery to the majority.

34 posted on 03/18/2012 8:23:24 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: EnglishCon

Four questions:

1. Does God live in this Universe or outside of it?

2. What role does perspective play in understanding Genesis?

3. You have noted God’s signature in everything from the laws of physics to the microwave buzzes of the universe. How powerful is God?

4. What does Hebrews 11:1 mean?


35 posted on 03/18/2012 8:24:14 PM PDT by daisy mae for the usa
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To: EnglishCon
"...Still, look at the order we are given. Fish, Fowl, every other living thing third. The classic chain of evolution. Plants first and so basic that they are every living thing's meat. Without plants, we simply die. Fish to reptiles/amphibians. Reptiles to birds and mammals. Mammals to primacy under God."

"Without a doubt, the ultimate Black Swan is whatever it was that permitted merely genetic human beings to emerge into full humanness just yesterday (cosmically speaking), some 50,000 years ago. .....

"....once man consciously enters the sensorium of time and space, he is implicitly aware of both Absolute and Infinite, and therefore Love, Truth, Justice, Beauty, Virtue, and Eternity. These are the things that define man, not his genome. ....."

Creation Myths of the Tenured

36 posted on 03/18/2012 8:28:21 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Andrew loved the battle and he knew the stakes." ~ Mark Levin 3/2/12)
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To: EnglishCon
"..I am more a biosciences person than a physicist..."

"It is terribly naive to say that science (especially modern science) deals with the "real world." It actually begins with the ponderable world -- the everyday world of the senses -- but eventually creates a wholly abstract world that is taken to be more "real" than the ponderable world. (Importantly, it also begins with certain implicit religious assumptions purloined from the Real, such as the idea of an intelligible cosmos that can be comprehended by rational observers,....)

... This process of abstraction leads to patent absurdities such as the belief that DNA explains life or that the brain creates consciousness, rather than vice versa. Both the brain and DNA are digital, while the human is analogue. ......Suffice it so say that revelation deals with the Real world, not the abstract world of science or the ponderable world of everyday existence. (To be perfectly accurate, it also has has to do with the dependence of the ponderable upon the Real, or their intersection;we are not dependent upon physics, but upon the Creator who created physics.)"

The Abstract, the Ponderable, and the Real

37 posted on 03/18/2012 8:39:00 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Andrew loved the battle and he knew the stakes." ~ Mark Levin 3/2/12)
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To: EnglishCon
"...By the Lord's works shall you know him. He laid out, in terms a person who has never heard of an electron or the speed of light or Planck's constant can understand, where we came from and how."

"....science is always provisional, whereas theology is always about the permanent and atemporal. What we call the "Big Bang" is merely the extrapolation of a certain model used by physicists to understand the physical world. In these models, at a certain point, the "history" of subatomic particles disappears into "nothing." Therefore, some people make the hasty conclusion that this must be the same "nothing" out of which God created the universe.

But this is not only wrong, but it demonstrates a peculiar lack of imagination. The "nothing" of the physicist is merely the area beyond the horizon of his model. There's still "something" there -- it's just that the physicist's model does not permit him to even hazard a guess as to what it might be.

But the Nothing of theology is a much vaster principle, having to do with the emanation of Being from Beyond-Being. This is what I meant the other day when I said that in my book I was not trying to equate the Big Bang with God's eternal creative act, but to use it as a "fable" to retell that timeless story. As I said on p. 2, "Borrowing freely from Christian, Greek, Jewish, Hindu, Taoist and other sources, the creation to which it refers did not happen just 'once upon a time,' but occurs continuously, in the timeless ground anterior to each moment."

"Put it this way: neither the cosmos nor this book have a proper 'beginning,' but both have a center, a center that starts where science ends and must therefore be described in mythological terms. The purpose of myth is to help us re-collect what we have forgotten about our timeless source, our eternal nature, and our ultimate destiny. ........"

Second Thoughts About First Causes

38 posted on 03/18/2012 8:46:21 PM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Andrew loved the battle and he knew the stakes." ~ Mark Levin 3/2/12)
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To: EnglishCon
You may wish to consider the work of one of Greece's most notable lay theologians, Alexander Kalomiros. His The Six Dawns not only harmonizes Genesis and modern science, but justifies the "minimal mental gymnastics" with citations to other parts of Scripture and the writings of the Church Fathers. (Of course, being Orthodox his citations to Scripture rely on the complete Septuagint, rather than the Masorete favored by Jews and protestants.)
39 posted on 03/18/2012 8:51:23 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: EnglishCon
Ah - I have always considered the waters of heaven to be the gas tides, driven by the stars, that created the sun and the planets. In a metaphorical sense it is true - there is a flood of gass and heavier elements.

Water is ubiquitous throughout the universe and I have read how a lot of water could have accounted for an early cooling and crustal formation at a time when classical models predicted a magma surface.

And now we have evidence that massive amounts of continental crust were produced almost immediately upon Earth formation.

http://info.anu.edu.au/ovc/media/Media_Releases/2005/November/181105harrisoncontinents


40 posted on 03/18/2012 9:01:00 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301
Well we are not told specifically other than flooding what other types of what we call natural disasters took place in Genesis 1:2. However, this earth is marked with all manner and types of 'natural' disasters and we even can see the remains of life that was destroyed eons ago. Also we are told in Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:

for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

This is after the 7th day of rest that the earth was 'watered' without rain. So all that water of Genesis 1:2 had to go someplace.

41 posted on 03/18/2012 9:27:57 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: fso301

When “literally” interpreting scripture, one does nothing but pick and choose among ones own preconeptions, looking for something that isn’t there.

The whole idea of an Intelligent Designer is a modern preconception, piously meant, I’m sure, but entirely absent from a plain reading of Genesis.

The formula, “Let the earth bring forth” is repeated wrt the animals, but in that case it is added, “And God made the beast of the earth ...” where this is not said of the grass and other plants. Isn’t this an indication of the lesser status of plants? Doesn’t this distinction fall afoul of our modern conception of the unity of DNA based life forms?


42 posted on 03/18/2012 9:52:51 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: EnglishCon
6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Stars don't come from nothing. Nor do planets. We can see the slow, steady aggregation of gases into stars. We have pictures, again testifying to the glory of God. Stars form from clouds of hydrogen gas. The heavier elements get spun out and away from the protostar. Eventually, the star's gravitational field gets strong enough to light the star. It is another flare of light, with the sudden solar wind forcing the light gases well out and starting random aggregations of heavier elements spinning and collecting. Getting bigger while orbiting the star. Outer planets catch a lot of the gas blasted away when the star ignites. Inner planets are looking at the heavier stuff that doesn't shift much under light pressure.



You're complicating things. The "firmament" and "water above the firmament" part are basically the ancient people's way of explaining rain. They saw water falling from the sky (firmament) which appears like a blue ceiling and concluded water exists beyond it, which is what rain is, as it "fell through".

Liberal verbal gymnastics can make any creation mythology appear to parallel reality, if you ignore the simple details.

43 posted on 03/18/2012 10:00:17 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Just mythoughts
So all that water of Genesis 1:2 had to go someplace.

In Genesis 1:7 God divides the waters and creates the firmament, which should not be confused with the common notion of "firm ground". The firmament, ( See Webster's ) means "The vault or arch of the sky," and it created a protective enclosure within the waters of chaos.

44 posted on 03/18/2012 10:04:13 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: EnglishCon
Very interesting. Thanks for posting.

Gerald L Schroeder, The Science Of God: The Convergence Of Scientific And Biblical Wisdom

45 posted on 03/18/2012 10:08:22 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: dr_lew
In Genesis 1:7 God divides the waters and creates the firmament, which should not be confused with the common notion of "firm ground". The firmament, ( See Webster's ) means "The vault or arch of the sky," and it created a protective enclosure within the waters of chaos.

Yes, I agree. And I expect that when all the refining gets completed this earth will be returned to its Genesis 1:1 condition.

46 posted on 03/18/2012 10:12:21 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: EnglishCon

We’ve got to remmber the timeline too. How long was a day to God? 72 hours? 30 earthly days?

Do we know?


47 posted on 03/18/2012 10:20:12 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: EnglishCon

I compare Genesis with other creation accounts, such as the mesopotamian one, and find this far more spare and elegant, as a description of the reality we know.


48 posted on 03/18/2012 10:24:45 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: Salvation
We’ve got to remmber the timeline too. How long was a day to God? 72 hours? 30 earthly days? Do we know?

Peter was the one elected to tell us how God calculates time. IIPeter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing,

that one day is with the LORD as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So those days of creation are to us a thousand years per day. And by the end of the 7th day of rest Genesis 2:4 These are THE GENERATIONS OF THE HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH (my King James has it all in caps as I typed) when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

Notice the usage of the word 'made' here instead of the word created in Genesis 1:1.

49 posted on 03/18/2012 10:36:06 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: Just mythoughts

Or could the time be instantaneous. God said — and it happened? Immediately.


50 posted on 03/18/2012 10:38:28 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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