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We challenge you to question Mormonism. [MormonInfo.org]
MormonInfo.org ^

Posted on 03/26/2012 9:19:05 AM PDT by greyfoxx39

We challenge you to question Mormonism. We focus on a source of current events and other information related to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), and to a lesser extent, other groups that claim Joseph Smith, Jr. as a true prophet. As Evangelical Christians, we also desire to convert Mormons and the state of Utah in particular to the real Jesus Christ. MormonInfo.org is a ministry of Courageous Christians United and hosts the Salt Lake City Ex-Mormon Meetup.

Differences Between Mormonism and Christianity


Mormonism Christianity
What is the Church?

The LDS Church is the only true church.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true church (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C] 1:30); all other churches (Presbyterians, Baptists, and Methodists are specifically mentioned in Joseph Smith, History 1:9, Pearl of Great Price) are "wrong," "all their creeds were an abomination," and "those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith, History 1:19). Those of creedal or traditional Christianity have adopted "pagan beliefs" and are part of "false Christianity" (Gospel Principles, 100 [1979 edition]). One either belongs to "the church of the Lamb of God" or to "the church of the devil" (1 Nephi 14:10). Joseph Smith taught that everybody but faithful Mormons will be damned (History of the Church 3:28). "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is absolutely indispensable to our salvation. No supposed personal relationship with Jesus, no commitment to the gospel, no high level of Christian conduct in society can compensate for what is to be found in the Church" (Robert Millet, Alive in Christ: The Miracle of Spiritual Rebirth [Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1997], 140).

The Church is a body of various believers and groups of believers.

The one true Church is the invisible, spiritual, and universal Body of Christ in heaven and on earth made up of all those true believers from various local denominations or visible churches. The body is an organism, not an external organization. Unity in this body does not demand complete uniformity in its various manifestations. God loves diversity. Yet the Church's unity is in Christ, who is the vine. People in various denominations who are committed to the Vine are the branches; no one particular manifestation of the Church is the vine (Matthew 16:18; 15:5; Acts 15:35-41; 20:28; 1 Corinthians 11:19; 12:13ff.; and Ephesians 4:1-13).

What happens after death?

Individuals go to more places than either with Christ or with the devil and his angels.

Depending on how good non-LDS members are in this life and the next determines their place in one of two lower heavenly kingdoms or "degrees of glory"--the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms--both of which are still outside the presence of God in His celestial kingdom (D&C 76). Both of these lower kingdoms are an eternal damnation of sorts, since there is no progression among all the kingdoms throughout eternity (Apostle Bruce McConkie, The Seven Deadly Heresies, Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 50, and Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:31). The worst eternal damnation is a separate place called "outer darkness" where only apostates reside with the Devil and his angels. The Book of Mormon teaches that if an individual doesn't repent in "this life," then one is sealed to the devil and "this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:32-5). For LDS, this passage typically means that individuals who willfully deny Christ and His Church after given an opportunity to be a part of it end up forever excluded from the presence of God in His kingdom. McConkie said that only those who never had the opportunity in this life to be part of God's celestial kingdom, and who would have received it, are the ones who will have that opportunity in the next life (The Seven Deadly Heresies, cf. D&C 137:7-8). Nonetheless, all children who die before the age of accountability go to the celestial kingdom (D&C 137:10). Prior to the final judgment, all individuals go to one of two places: paradise or spirit prison. LDS go to the former and non-LDS go to the latter. LDS will go and preach to those in spirit prison (Alma 40:12-4 and D&C 138:30). Within the celestial kingdom, there are also three degrees of glory. The highest is reserved for those who are sealed in marriage for time and all eternity (D&C 131:1-4). McConkie was also clear that simply having this celestial marriage is no guarantee of exaltation (The Seven Deadly Heresies). Finally, there are angels who worship before the throne of God, who never received a celestial marriage and are thus single (D&C 76:21 and 132:15-17).

Individuals go to be either with Christ or with the devil and his angels.

Those who are part of the body of Christ should know they have eternal life (1 John 5:10-13). They are in Christ's and the Father's hand, and no one can pluck them out of it (Jn. 10:27-30). Christ went to prepare a place for them in His Father's house, but until then the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit take up residency in their lives (Jn. 14:1-3, 23-6). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6; and Philippians 1:21-5). The Bible is clear that paradise is the third heaven--the dwelling of God (2 Cor. 12:1-4). The first heaven is the earthly atmosphere (Acts 14:17) and the second heaven is outer space (Jeremiah 8:2). At the judgment, there are those who go with the devil and his angels, and there are those who go to life eternal (Mat. 25:31-46).

What is divine salvation?

Divine salvation is unconditional for resurrection and conditional for eternal life.

In one sense, salvation is universal immortality and resurrection by grace alone, and is given to everyone except apostates. In another sense, salvation is eternal life or exaltation into the highest kingdom. The latter is dependent on grace through faith and one's works (2 Ne. 25:23; D&C 76:40-4; and Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 669-71, and 746).

Divine salvation is always conditional.

Divine salvation is always from sin and its consequence of separation from God. This salvation is always conditioned upon faith. Until this occurs, God considers the individual dead. When this salvation occurs, one has eternal life (Jn. 5:24; Romans 5; Eph. 2:1-10; and 1 Jn. 5:10-3).

Where is the cross?

The symbol of the cross is absent.

Since the Savior lives, LDS focus on his life rather than his death. Though He suffered for our sins on the cross, the greater pain was in the Garden of Gethsemane where the atonement was initiated. The emblem of the cross is not to be revered, and its display is "very strange" (Gordon B. Hinckley, "The Symbol of Our Faith," Ensign, Apr 2005, 2-6; McConkie, "The Purifying Power of Gethsemane," Ensign [May 1985], 9; Mormon Doctrine, 172 and 555; The Promised Messiah, 337 and 552; The Mortal Messiah, 127-128; Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:15-8; "Cross" and "Atonement of Christ," LDS.org).

The symbol of the cross is central.

Simply because Jesus lives forever more is no reason to minimize the means by which He paid for our sins. The Bible never teaches that the atonement began in the garden. Rather, it teaches that the atonement happened on the cross (1 Peter 2:24). The cross is foolishness to the perishing, but the power of God to them being saved (1 Cor. 1:18). There is nothing else that deserves boasting except the cross of Christ (Galatians 6:14). The cross symbolizes a way His followers are to live (Luke 9:23). Even the first century Christians used the symbol of the cross as archeology has revealed.

Did Christ die for all sins?

Christ did not die for all sins.

Christ did not atone for the murderer, since there is no forgiveness for him "in this world, nor in the world to come." Christ also did not pay for more than a one-time offense of adultery, since such violators cannot be forgiven either (D&C 42:18 and 25-9). Actually, according to one apostle, Christ atoned simply for Adam's sin, and left "us responsible only for our own sins." This apostle goes on to quote the 2nd Article of Faith that claims "men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression" (Le Grand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder [1976], 98). Other LDS prophets have taught that there are certain "sins" that one may commit that are beyond the atonement of the Son of God, and one's own blood must be shed in such cases (Brigham Young, The Journal of Discourses 3:247; 4:53-4; 4:219-220; and Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:133-6).

Christ did die for all sins.

Christ atoned for all sins (Adam's as well as everyone else's). The Lord Jesus took the punishment of everyone on the cross. The debt we could never pay has been completely paid by the Lamb of God, and to those who receive this gift, they are declared "justified" or "not guilty." This is the good news (the gospel) for everyone, including the adulterer and the murderer (2 Samuel 12:13; Isaiah 53:3-12; Mt. 18:21-2; Rom. 3:24; 4:5; 5:1-2; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 15:3; 2 Cor. 5:14-21; 1 Pt. 2:24; and 1 Jn. 1:8-2:2).

What role do good works play with our standing before God?

Good works are meritorious for right standing before God.

Good works are a necessary requirement of salvation and right standing before God (1 Ne. 3:7; 2 Ne. 25:23; Alma 5:27-8; 11:37; 34:33-5; Moroni 10:32; D&C 1:24-33; 25:15-6; 42:18-29; 58:34-43; 82:5-7; 3rd Article of Faith; Gospel Principles, 74-8 [1997 edition]; and 122-7).

Good works are not meritorious for right standing before God.

Salvation is a free gift that must be received through faith, not of works, since no one is good enough to earn it from an all-holy Judge. If this is genuine faith, then it is automatically demonstrated by the overall good life produced by it (Ibid.; Rom. 3:23-28; 4:5; 11:6; Gal. 3:11, 23-6, and 5:6; Eph. 2:8-10; 1 Jn. 5:10-3; and James 2:14-26, NAS).

Baptism for the dead?

Baptism for the dead is required.

Baptism in place of the dead is an essential ordinance done in LDS temples on behalf of those who died not receiving the benefit of LDS baptism (Gospel Principles, 255-62 [1997 edition]). Joseph Smith said, "The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us is to seek after our dead" (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 356 [pre-2002 edition]).

Baptism for the dead is not required.

The only biblical passage that mentions baptism for the dead was most likely done by those outside of Christianity, since the Apostle Paul made a contrast between what "they" do and what "we" do. Paul said that even those who do baptism for the dead believe in the resurrection. How much more should we, who do not baptize for the dead and are led by apostles who were eyewitnesses of Christ's resurrection, believe in the resurrection (1 Cor. 15:29-30). Even if some of the Corinthians were performing baptisms for the dead, there is no reason to think the practice was understood to be a means of salvation. Further, even though baptism is normal and a believer should be baptized, it is not essential for salvation (e.g., Acts 10:44-8). Finally, there is no second chance for salvation to those who reject it in this life (Lk. 16:19-31; and Hebrews 9:27).

Are there other Gods?

There are many Gods for other worlds, and each God is equal to the God of this world in terms of His nature.

There are many gods who create and rule over other worlds, and on those worlds, worship excludes the God of our world. So there is only one God for us, and this God is typically referred to as the Heavenly Father. Mormons may also speak of the term "God" in reference to "the Godhead," which is a team of separate Gods (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 576-7; Joseph Fielding Smith, ed., The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7 [pre-2002 edition]; Abraham 4:1, Pearl of Great Price; Gospel Principles, 245 [1997 edition], and 302; "God," LDS Bible Dictionary; and Blake Ostler, "Review of The Mormon Concept of God: A Philosophical Analysis by Francis J. Beckwith and Stephen E. Parrish," FARMS Review of Books [Provo, UT: FARMS, 1996], 99-146).

There is only one God for all worlds.

There is only one God who created and rules over everything in existence. LDS simply devalue and weaken God when they think that He did not create something like some other world (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 4:39; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 96:5; Isa. 40:12-26; 43:10; 44:6, 8, and 24; Jn. 1:1-3; and 17:3).

The Trinity?

The Trinity means three separate Gods, who are one in their nature and become one in purpose.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate gods, who are one in purpose and nature, but not in a being they share eternally (Ibid; Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 372 [pre-2002 edition]). There was a time when the person of the Father (Elohim) was without the person of the Son (Jehovah) as His Son. Thus, there was a time in which Elohim was not the Father.

The Trinity means three inseparable Persons, who are eternally God in purpose, nature, and being.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct or different persons, who are eternally and inseparably one in purpose, nature, and being (Ibid.; Isa. 48:12-7; Mt. 3:16; 4:10; and 28:16-20). So the Father is not the same person as the Son, and the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as the Father, but nonetheless, each Person eternally makes up the only Being of God there is.

Are humans and God the same nature or species?

Humans and God are of the same nature or species.

The nature of these gods is identical to the nature of man, and as such these humans had to become gods; they haven't always been gods (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345 [pre-2002 edition]; Thomas C. Romney, The Life of Lorenzo Snow, 46; D&C 76:23-4; and Abraham 3:18-28).

Humans and God are not of the same nature or species.

God has His own unique nature that man, a created being by definition and not the originator of literally everything else, cannot ever have. God is God by nature, and not by obtainment (Ps. 90:2; Ezekiel 28:2 and 9; Hosea 11:9; Acts 14:15; Gal. 4:8; and 2 Pt. 1:3-4).

Does God in His nature have flesh and bones?

God is an exalted man with flesh and bones.

God the Father and Jesus Christ have tangible bodies of flesh and bones, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. Personages of spirit are still material with a certain form or shape, but they are not as tangible as the bodies of those who are sent to a mortal planet (Ibid.; D&C 130:22; 131:7-8; and "Spirit" in the LDS Bible Dictionary).

God is not an exalted man with flesh and bones.

Since He is the Creator of all things outside of Himself (e.g., the entire material universe), God is not limited to a body. He created matter, and does not need a body or anything else to operate anywhere in all of creation. He is all powerful, and as such, He can take any type of form or nature to show up any way He wants to (1 Kings 8:27; Jer. 23:24; Luke 3:22; and Jn. 4:21-4).

Can humans become Gods for other worlds as God is God for this world?

Humans may become Gods for other worlds as God is God for this world.

Worthy Mormons may become gods to create, rule over and receive worship from their own worlds some day. They will do this exclusively as the god or the team of gods for that world or that set of worlds (like the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are for this world or this set of worlds), and thus the God of this world will not perform those functions there (Ibid; D&C 76:50-8 and 95, 132:15-23, 29, and 37; and Gospel Principles, 302 [1997 edition]).

Humans cannot become Gods for other worlds as God is God for all worlds.

When all believers become what some Christians such as C. S. Lewis call "gods" in heaven (although the Bible never uses this language of glorified individuals), they are still dependent and human "gods," and not God by nature, who alone is eternally the Author and Sustainer of literally all that is outside Himself. He is the only God in this fundamental sense of the term (Ibid.; and Lewis, Mere Christianity [N.Y.: Macmillan, 1952], vi, 160, 172).

Was the God of this world once a man who became God?

The God of this world was once a man who became God.

God is an exalted man, who needed to do certain things in order to become God for this world (Ibid.; and James Talmage, Articles of Faith, 430).

The God of this world is the God for all worlds, so He never was a man who had to become God.

God has always been God, and thus is not so needy (Ibid.).

Does the Father have a Father?

The Heavenly Father has a Heavenly Father before Him.

God the Father has a Father whom He followed as Jesus had followed His Father in order to become a god (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373 [pre-2002 edition]).

There was no Heavenly Father before the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

There is no other God before God. He is not so weak that He needed to serve and receive counsel from some other God in order to become God; He always was God (Ps. 90:2; Isa. 40:12-26; 43:10; and Rom. 11:33-6).

Does God need a wife to become God?

God needs a wife to become God.

God the Father has at least one wife that He needed in order to become exalted to Godhood, and by at least one wife we on this world were all literally born as spirit children prior to taking on our tangible bodies of flesh and bones via our mortal parents (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 516-7; Young, The Journal of Discourses 1:50; Gospel Principles, 15 [1997 edition]; and the popular hymn "O My Father").

God does not need a wife to become God.

Since God is not a man by nature it is impossible for Him as the eternal God to even enter into a human marital relationship that He would need to become God and sexually produce us. It is just as impossible for God to lie. He does not need anything, let alone a wife, to become God. If it were even possible for the Father to strive to exaltation, then we would expect God's courtship and marriage to be a perfect one in which He received counsel from the other partner(s). But what kind of God would this be? As the All Perfect Being by nature, it is also impossible for God to receive any counsel (Ibid; 1 Kings 8:27; and Heb. 6:18).

Did humans exist prior to this earthly life?

Humans existed prior to this earthly life.

Humans were all born to heavenly parents in the celestial kingdom prior to this earthly life (Abraham 3:22–26).

Humans did not exist prior to this earthly life.

With the exception of Jesus, humans are not from heaven or from above, but from the earth or below, and have never seen the Heavenly Father (Jn. 3:31-2; 6:38-46; and 8:23).

Is there anything that the Father did not create?

There are things that the Father did not create.

Thus God the Father did not create the planet that His Father had already created. No God for any world created all worlds. No God for any world created intelligence, matter, or the laws that govern them. These are eternal. Any person, including a God for any world, eternally existed as intelligence, and not as God (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 373 [pre-2002 edition]; D&C 93:29-35; 131:7-8; and Abraham 3:18-28).

There is nothing that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not create.

There is only one Being who created and rules over everything in existence. LDS simply devalue and weaken God when they think that He did not create something like some other world (Gen. 1:1; Deut. 4:39; Isa. 40:12-26; 43:10; 44:6, 8, and 24; Jn. 1:1-3; Acts 17:24-8; and 1 Cor. 8:6).

Is there anything that the Son did not create?

There are things that the Son did not create.

Jesus being the literal son of exalted human gods obviously did not create all things either. For example, He did not create the planet He was born on as a spirit child (Ibid.; Gospel Principles, 17-20 [1997 edition]; and 27-9).

There is nothing that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did not create.

Prior to becoming man, Jesus existed as "the only begotten God" (Jn. 1:18, New American Standard [NAS] and in the best Greek manuscripts). As such, He created everything that was ever created from the very beginning (Jn. 1:1-3, 14 and 1 Cor. 8:6). When LDS relativize His creation to only concerning the things of this world or this set of worlds--i.e., not literally all worlds, this devalues and cheapens Jesus, who has not only the nature of man (1 Timothy 2:5), but also the nature of "God over all blessed forever" (Rom. 9:5, emphasis added).

Are Jesus and Lucifer spirit-brothers?

Jesus and Lucifer are spirit-brothers.

Jesus was the first one born of heavenly parents, and Lucifer was a younger sibling. Jesus is referred to as Lucifer's, as well as our, elder brother in the pre-earth life (Ibid.; Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel through the Ages, 15; Abraham 3:22-8 with Moses 4:1-4).

Jesus created Lucifer.

For LDS to think that Christ is simply our and Lucifer's elder brother in some supposed pre-earth life is blasphemous devaluing of Christ's divine nature. Christ may rightly be referred to as a brother in our humanity, but in addition to that, He is our Creator... and not simply of our bodies (Ibid.; Colossians 1:13-8; Heb. 1:2 and 6-14; and 2:6-18).

Has Jesus always been God?

Jesus has not always been God.

Jesus, like all other gods before Him, had to become a God. He is the literal Son of God like we are children of God, but He's without sin (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7 [pre-2002 edition]).

Jesus has always been God.

Jesus has always been the only God there is along with the Father and Holy Ghost (Ibid; Isa. 43:10; Mt. 28:19; Jn. 1:1-3 and 14; and 8:56-9).

Should the Son receive the same worship as the Father?

The Son should not receive the same worship as the Father.

Jesus is not worshipped equally with the Father, since Jesus is not our begetter. Jesus is not even directly prayed to. Prayer is directed only to the Father in the name of Jesus (Gospel Principles, 41 [1997 edition]; McConkie, BYU Devotional [March 2, 1982], 17, 19, and 20).

The Son should receive the same worship as the Father.

Since Jesus is God by nature, He is worshipped equally with the Father. Jesus receives both worship and prayer, and we are commanded to do so (Mt. 4:10; 28:16-20; Jn. 5:18-23; 14:14, NAS and in the best Greek manuscripts; Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:2; and 1 Jn. 5:13-5).

Was Jesus born of a virgin?

Jesus may not have been born of a virgin.

Even though Mormons are usually quick to say they don't know how the conception of Jesus took place and allow for the possibility of something like artificial insemination, they all claim that Jesus had the Heavenly Father and Mary as parents. Mormon general authorities on the other hand have claimed that the conception of Jesus was perfectly natural despite the Book of Mormon teaching that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born (1 Ne. 11:18-21; Alma 7:10; The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young 1:321; Young, The Journal of Discourses 1:50-1; 8:115; Heber C. Kimball, 211; Orson Pratt, The Seer, 158-9; Family Home Evening Manual [1972], 126; and McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 546-7, and 742-3).

Jesus was born of a virgin.

Just because Jesus was eternally the Son of the Father does not entail that Jesus was not the Son of the Holy Ghost when He was born of Mary. The act of conception was of the Holy Ghost, and not of a man. Mary was with child and still a virgin (Mt. 1:18-25; and Lk. 1:26-35).

Who is the Holy Ghost?

The Holy Ghost is a man and son of God.

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that the Holy Ghost is a spirit man, a spirit son of God the Father. It is fundamental Church doctrine that God is the Father of the spirits of all men and women, that Jesus is literally God's Son both in the spirit and in the flesh, and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit separate and distinct from both the Father and the Son. The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Eternal Godhead, and is identified also as the Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, and the comforter" (Encyclopedia of Mormonism 2:649; cf. D&C 130:22-3; "Holy Ghost" in the LDS Bible Dictionary). The gift of the Holy Ghost is only given to those who have been baptized and are confirmed by the laying on of hands (Gospel Principles, 132 [1979 edition]).

The Holy Ghost is God by nature.

Since the Holy Ghost is the inseparable third person of the only Being of God there is, He is not a man by nature that became exalted into a separate god for a Godhead team (2 Samuel 23:2-3; Mt. 28:19; Acts 5:3-4; and 13:2). Gentiles clearly received the gift of the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized. They simply believed and spoke in tongues without the laying on of hands (Acts 10:44-8).

Racism?

God curses certain individuals with dark skin.

The races are determined by how worthy individuals were prior to this mortal life. Blacks were not as faithful in their first estate (Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 1:61-7; McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 527-8; 1st Presidency Statement, August 17, 1949). The Book of Mormon teaches white superiority. Here God cursed certain Israelite American Indians with dark skin, and this was meant to keep them from interbreeding with their white brethren. This scripture also teaches that God blessed some who repented with white skin (Alma 3:6-9; 1 Ne. 12:23; 2 Ne. 5:21-4; Jacob 3:8; and 3 Ne. 2:14-6). The Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price teaches that the curse of Cain was a seed of blackness. This seed was excluded from Zion, the future abode of God (Moses 7:8, 21 and 22). Nothing concerning the LDS "revelation" in 1978 to give "all worthy males members" the priesthood invalidates these beliefs.

God does not curse anyone with dark skin.

God blesses humanity with different colors of skin, and no skin color is more favorable to Him than another. Race is not the real issue anyway, for we are all one in Christ (Gal. 3:28). "God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-5). Since this is true, there was no good reason to exclude blacks from holding the priesthood until 1978. The mark of Cain was not a curse, but a blessing. It was for his good to protect him from anyone who wanted to kill him. Nothing is said about this mark being passed onto his descendants, nothing is said about it being a color of skin, and nothing is said about it barring him or his seed from Zion, the future abode of God (Gen. 4:15). Finally, dark skin is never changed into white upon repentance (Jer. 13:23).

Polygamy?

God approves of polygamy in the Old and New Testaments, but has temporarily suspended the practice.

Holy men were allowed to practice plural marriage in times past only upon the Lord's command (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7 [pre-2002 edition]; and Jacob 2:27-30). These who kept this command, as well as other commands, became gods in the celestial kingdom (D&C 132). Brigham Young taught that the only ones who became gods are those who enter into polygamy (The Journal of Discourses 11:269). The early leaders of the LDS Church were all polyamists. Joseph Smith had 34 wives, 11 of whom were currently married to living husbands at the time he took them as wives (WivesOfJosephSmith.org; and FamilySearch.org). Even though the Salt Lake City based Mormon Church suspended the practice in 1890, the late General Authority Bruce McConkie said it would obviously "commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man" (Mormon Doctrine, 578). However, temple-worthy LDS widowers may still practice plural marriage today by getting sealed for "time and all eternity" to another temple-worthy woman who is not sealed to another. So it's still practiced today with only 1 living wife (e.g., LDS Apostles Russell M. Nelson, Dallin Oaks, and L. Tom Perry).

God always disapproves of polygamy even when He allowed it.

Simply because something is the case doesn't entail that it ought to be the case. So just because individuals were polygamists in the Bible doesn't entail that they should have been. People murdered in the Bible, but that doesn't justify murder. The ideal of the one-flesh unit was given from creation (Gen. 2:24), and there are various indications in the Old Testament against polygamy. Nonetheless, God may have at times accomodated Himself to a temporary, fallen Near Eastern social structure (Paul Copan, Is God a Moral Monster?: Making Sense of the Old Testament God [Grand Rapids: Baker, 2011], 58-62, and 110-7). Similar to Jesus' teaching on divorce, it was given due to the hardness of their hearts (Mat. 19:8). Regardless of justifying the Old Testament practice, the New Testament is clear that the church leaders, who we are called to emulate, are to be husbands of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2, 12; and Titus 1:5-6). We are still in the New Testament, and thus, there is no excuse for Mormon Church leaders entering into polygamy. Finally, Jesus taught that we won't be married in the afterlife anyway, but will be like the angels ().

The Priesthood?

The Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods are offered to worthy male members.

There are two forms of the priesthood: the Aaronic (the lesser one) and the Melchizedek (the greater one). Without the authority of the priesthood no man can see God and live. It is available for all worthy male members of at least a certain age, who desire to act legally in the name of the Lord. This was extended to those males with black ancestry in 1978 (D&C, Official Declaration--2; 84:6ff.; and Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:80).

The Aaronic priesthood was done away at the cross and the Melchizedek priesthood is unique to Christ.

The Aaronic priesthood was done away at the crucifixion of Christ, since He has become our permanent high priest. There is no more need for Levitical priests to offer imperfect sacrifices on behalf of the people in the temple. Jesus alone is worthy to hold the Melchizedek priesthood. Any believer today who has been called out of darkness into the light, regardless of age, race, or sex, is a member of the holy and royal priesthood. The believer operates in the highest authority that is offered today, viz., that of being a child of the Lord Omnipotent. Christians have the true priesthood, since they have the true God who gives it to them (Jn. 1:12; Gal. 3:26-9; 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 4:14; 5:9-10; 7:11-8:2; 9:24; 1 Pt. 2:5 and 9; and Rev. 1:6; 20:6).

The Bible?

The Bible is unreliable and incomplete for faith.

The Bible is the word of God only as it is translated correctly (8th Article of Faith). Evidently, it was not translated very well since Joseph Smith's translation (JST) is quite a bit different from all other versions (also cf. 1 Nephi 13:23-42 where the Bible is corrupted after the founding 12 apostles). Nonetheless, LDS use the King James Version. LDS also have three other books of Scripture--the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. The Book of Mormon calls those "fools" who claim they have a Bible and "need no more Bible" (2 Nephi 29:3-14). Joseph Smith taught that only LDS believe the Bible and "all other sects believe their interpretations of the Bible, and their creeds" (History of the Church 3:28).

The Bible is reliable and complete for faith.

The Bible claims to be the word of God, and the Bible--including Jesus--promised that it would be faithfully preserved. The general consistency of the Septuagint, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the thousands of other ancient manuscripts, lectionaries, and citations from early Church Fathers all attest to this fact. The Bible is by far the best attested work of antiquity. The Bible is archeologically, historically, prophetically, and scientifically accurate. And since the Bible contradicts all the other scriptures of the LDS Church, they should all be damned (Ps. 12:6-7; Proverbs 30:6; Isa. 40:7-8; Mt. 5:17-9; 24:35; Jn. 10:35; 17:17; and Gal. 1:6-9).

For more detail, see Seven Differences between Mormonism and Christianity.
For answers to LDS critiques that support their faith, see our
Frequently Asked Questions page.
  


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: antichristian; christianity; inman; romney
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To: freedomlover
No Chariots in the Americas before Columbus?

 
MORMON
Chapter 6

The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. About A.D. 385.

1 And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. And it came to pass that we did march forth before the Lamanites.

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

3 And it came to pass that the king of the Lamanites did grant unto me the thing which I desired. 

4 And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents around about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites.

5 And *when three hundred and eighty and four years had passed away, we had gathered in all the remainder of our people unto the land of Cumorah.

6 And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

7 And it came to pass that my people, with their wives and their children, did now behold the armies of the Lamanites marching towards them; and with that awful fear of death which fills the breasts of all the wicked, did they await to receive them.

8 And it came to pass that they came to battle against us, and every soul was filled with terror because of the greatness of their numbers.

9 And it came to pass that they did fall upon my people with the sword, and with the bow, and with the arrow, and with the ax, and with all manner of weapons of war.

10 And it came to pass that my men were hewn down, yea, even my ten thousand who were with me, and I fell wounded in the midst; and they passed by me that they did not put an end to my life.

11And when they had gone through and hewn down all my people save it were twenty and four of us, (among whom was my son Moroni) and we having survived the dead of our people, did behold on the morrow, when the Lamanites had returned unto their camps, from the top of the hill Cumorah, the ten thousand of my people who were hewn down, being led in the front by me.

12 And we also beheld the ten thousand of my people who were led by my son Moroni.

13 And behold, the ten thousand of Gidgiddonah had fallen, and he also in the midst.

14 And Lamah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Gilgal had fallen with his ten thousand; and Limhah had fallen with his ten thousand; and Jeneum had fallen with his ten thousand; and Cumenihah, and Moronihah, and Antionum, and Shiblom, and Shem, and Josh, had fallen with their ten thousand each.

15 And it came to pass that there were ten more who did fall by the sword, with their ten thousand each; yea, even all my people, save it were those twenty and four who were with me, and also a few who had escaped into the south countries, and a few who had deserted over unto the Lamanites, had fallen; and their flesh, and bones, and blood lay upon the face of the earth, being left by the hands of those who slew them to molder upon the land, and to crumble and to return to their mother earth.

16 And my soul was rent with anguish, because of the slain of my people, and I cried:

17 O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!

18 Behold, if ye had not done this, ye would not have fallen. But behold, ye are fallen, and I mourn your loss.

19 O ye fair sons and daughters, ye fathers and mothers, ye husbands and wives, ye fair ones, how is it that ye could have fallen!

20 But behold, ye are gone, and my sorrows cannot bring your return.

21 And the day soon cometh that your mortal must put on immortality, and these bodies which are now moldering in corruption must soon become incorruptible bodies; and then ye must stand before the judgment-seat of Christ, to be judged according to your works; and if it so be that ye are righteous, then are ye blessed with your fathers who have gone before you.

22 O that ye had repented before this great destruction had come upon you. But behold, ye are gone, and the Father, yea, the Eternal Father of heaven, knoweth your state; and he doeth with you according to his justice and mercy.


 
 
Mormon 8:2
And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.


21 posted on 03/26/2012 10:02:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Flash Bazbeaux
Well, may I roast in the everlasting fires of hell for saying it...

Oh; we hope not.

LORD; reveal Yourself to Flash.

22 posted on 03/26/2012 10:06:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39

The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.

They deny that Jesus created even the angels out of nothing.

They do NOT teach the truth about Jesus.

23 posted on 03/26/2012 10:20:38 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Flash Bazbeaux
Well, may I roast in the everlasting fires of hell for saying it, but I don’t have a whole lot of animus toward people who get married, have kids, hold jobs, and stay off the streets and out of the bars at night.

Nor do I.

I do, however, have a whole lot of animus towards mormonISM. What's your point?

24 posted on 03/26/2012 10:21:02 AM PDT by houeto (Mitt Romney - A Whiter Shade of FAIL)
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To: Kansas58
Again, is it your point to banish all Mormons from the Republican Party or from Conservatism?

Perhaps you should learn a little more about mormonism if you plan to defend it further.

We find it hilarious that mormonism defenders get your underwear in a knot about the posting of factual mormon doctrine from mormon sources by a few dozen FReepers at the same time that mormon leaders are bragging about the following:

We are grateful for the 52,225 full-time missionaries serving in more than 150 countries.16 The sun never sets on righteous missionaries testifying of the Savior mormon church. Think of the spiritual power of 52,000 missionaries, endowed with the Spirit of the Lord Joseph Smith, boldly declaring that there is “no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come … , only in and through the name of Christ. mormon church temple rituals

"My young brethren of the priesthood, I testify of the majesty, but most of all, of the certainty of this magnificent event. The Savior lives. He will return to the earth (the Second Coming) . And whether on this side of the veil or the other, you and I will rejoice in His coming and thank the Lord that He sent us to earth at this time to fulfill our sacred duty of helping prepare the world for His return the mormon theocracy

."other people, who may not yield full obedience to his laws, nor be fully instructed in his covenants, will, nevertheless, have to yield full obedience to his government. For it will be the reign of God upon the earth, and he will enforce his laws, and command that obedience from the nations of the world which is legitimately his right” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor [2001], 225).

Preparing the World for the Second Coming-LDS.org, April 2011

Anyone who believes that Romney isn't fully immersed in this doctrine and the Law of Consecration is a fool: The Law of Consecration is considered by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be a "celestial law." That is, people who are living lives dedicated to the service of God, such that at judgment they would be assigned to the Celestial Kingdom, should be able and expected to live the Law of Consecration. The Law of Consecration is that, if necessary or requested, a person would give everything he has for the building up of the Kingdom of God on Earth. He would be willing to wholeheartedly give of his time, talents, and resources. Thus, the person is "consecrating" all his personal resources to the Lord.

“The law of consecration,” said Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “is that we consecrate our time, our talents, and our money and property to the cause of the Church; such are to be available to the extent they are needed to further the Lord’s interests on earth.” Mormon Temple Covenants

So, whine away. The exposure you provide enables us to post more information that many FReepers and lurkers have not seen about the beliefs of mormons, including Romney.

.
25 posted on 03/26/2012 10:59:48 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Praise Jesus! I have been redeemed from the "restoration" of mormonism!)
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To: greyfoxx39

The one Mormon I knew really well was a guy I served under in the Air Force 40+ years ago. To this day, he stands out as one of the most impressive men I’ve ever known.

I hate to tell ya, but if his Mormonism was the only thing I knew about Romney, I’d vote for him in a minute.


26 posted on 03/26/2012 11:26:43 AM PDT by Grut
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To: Kansas58
Isn't it our goal to defeat Obama, and to defeat Liberalism?

How are we going to defeat liberalism by voting in a man who would be the most liberal Republican nominee of all time? Romney is the modern-day version of Nelson Rockefeller. Fighting liberalism by replacing Obama with Romney is the same as fighting gang influence by leaving the Crips to join MS-13.

A Romney general election victory in 2012 would for all practical purposes destroy conservatism as a force in the Republican Party. For the next 4-5 Presidential election cycles, the GOP-E and their MSM allies will point to Romney's victory in 2012 as the blueprint for how Republicans get elected - avoiding conservative positions and ideas. Tea Party ideals will be pushed to the sidelines to be forever ignored.

27 posted on 03/26/2012 11:32:30 AM PDT by CommerceComet (If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)
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To: CommerceComet
For the record, again, I would much prefer Gingrich or Santorum.

However, Romney is FAR better than Obama, on many fronts.

I want a better nominee, but I will vote AGAINST Obama no matter what.

28 posted on 03/26/2012 11:45:47 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58
For the record, again, I would much prefer Gingrich or Santorum. However, Romney is FAR better than Obama, on many fronts. I want a better nominee, but I will vote AGAINST Obama no matter what.

Romney v. Obama is definitely a rock v. a hard spot decision. As bad as McCain's politics were, Romney's are worse across-the-board.

Since I believe that only conservative principles will ultimately save this country and Obama's re-election won't destroy conservatism, his re-election is probably better for the country than Romney's election. With a Romney win, we'll still get 75-90% of Obama's agenda but as a viable political force, conservatism will die. While conservatism might try to resurrect itself in a third-party, the current political arrangement makes third-party runs difficult, if not impossible. If Romney succeeds in defeating conservatism in the Republican Party, it is for all practical purposes, dead. That is why I can't hold my nose and vote for Romney - not this time - Romney is a bridge too far. I could vote without enthusiasm for McCain and Dubya in 2004 but not this time.

I assume you are a Kansas resident. So am I. Therefore, withholding my vote from Romney will have no effect. There are enough Republicans like you who will vote for him that he should carry the state. If Romney really needs my vote in Kansas, he would be getting slaughtered in the rest of the country. Unfortunately, for Romney, I think that there are enough conservatives like me in NC, VA, FL, and a couple of others that I doubt he could turn those states back into R states and therefore, he is probably doomed in the general election. The GOP-E should have thought about this before they shoved this dud down our throats.

29 posted on 03/26/2012 12:21:52 PM PDT by CommerceComet (If Mitt can leave the GOP to protest Reagan, why can't I do the same in protest of Romney?)
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To: CommerceComet
I strongly disagree.
Obama wants to destroy this country.
I will not bet my future on his ability or inability to obtain his goal.
Romney does not hate this country.
Obama does hate this country.
30 posted on 03/26/2012 12:27:39 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: houeto
How about, in order to spread the Good News.

No problem there. I was just responding to the principle of challenging me to question Mormonism. I took the title literally.

31 posted on 03/26/2012 1:18:09 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: Elsie
You quoted the Christian Bible, so in that respect you are preaching to the choir.

I still don't want to question Mormonism.

--------------------------------

My tagline comes from a respect for truth in advertising laws (even though no one else follows them).

32 posted on 03/26/2012 1:23:39 PM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: Grut
I hate to tell ya, but if his Mormonism was the only thing I knew about Romney, I’d vote for him in a minute.

It is evident that you think that MORMONism has made these men what they are.

Do you ANYTHING about MORMONism; other than it has apparently produced what you consider to be an 'impressive man'?

33 posted on 03/26/2012 1:38:16 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: UCANSEE2
You quoted the Christian Bible, so in that respect you are preaching to the choir.

CHOIR??

Why? To each his own.

What kind of a 'christian' choir sings THAT song?

We are told to CONTEND for the Faith; not proclaim, "Whatever".

34 posted on 03/26/2012 1:42:15 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: UCANSEE2
I was just responding to the principle of challenging me to question Mormonism. I took the title literally.


We challenge you to question Mormonism.

Would THIS have worked better??

We challenge you Christians to question False Teachings

35 posted on 03/26/2012 1:45:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

36 posted on 03/26/2012 1:46:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Kansas58

Isn’t it our goal to defeat Obama, and to defeat Liberalism?


Boy, are YOU on the wrong thread.


37 posted on 03/26/2012 1:47:47 PM PDT by magritte (Gladys Knight: Mormon Siren?)
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To: Kansas58; greyfoxx39; Elsie
Isn't it our goal to defeat...Liberalism?

(Only a brainwashed soul doesn't see RomneyCare in the BayState as not "liberal" ... would that be you, Kansas 58?)

Pick ANY Democrat. A president. A president-wanna-be. A congressman. Now imagine them introducing legislation for socialized healthcare. Hillary, as just-Bill's-wife, tried it in the 1990s. Didn't work. Mitt "outliberaled" them all...ALL Dems...Only Obama has "outliberaled" Mitt on the matter...but Mitt was THE pioneer!

Only a brainwashed soul would conclude Romney's Dec '07 view -- expressed to Katie Couric -- the view whereby it was "OK" for parents to donate their offspring to "research"...as NOT "liberal..." Would that be you Kansas58.

Kansas58's new motto...my tagline: Vote in ONE socialist...to defeat another!!!

38 posted on 03/26/2012 2:28:46 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: UCANSEE2; Elsie; greyfoxx39
Why? To each his own.

Iow..."I'm not my brother's keeper..." "To each his own religion...until we have as many religions in the world as we have people..."

39 posted on 03/26/2012 2:31:37 PM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: greyfoxx39
'Question' mormonism in the Religion Forum ? ?

Gotcha, but nice try anyway.


40 posted on 03/26/2012 2:34:34 PM PDT by tomkat (FU.baraq !)
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