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"Ale Mary" Dive Bar Uses Monstrance and Chalices for Drunken Revelries
Eponymous Flower ^ | March 25, 2012

Posted on 03/26/2012 1:38:33 PM PDT by NYer

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1 posted on 03/26/2012 1:38:40 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 03/26/2012 1:39:35 PM PDT by NYer (He who hides in his heart the remembrance of wrongs is like a man who feeds a snake on his chest. St)
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To: NYer

Doesn’t the bible say something about idol worship? Cups are cups and only have meaning if you make them into something more than they are.


3 posted on 03/26/2012 1:47:51 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: NYer
[1] Some countries have laws to punish blasphemy,[2] while others have laws to give recourse to those who are offended by blasphemy.

Do you wish for such laws in the US?

4 posted on 03/26/2012 2:00:55 PM PDT by Ken H (Austerity is the irresistible force. Entitlements are the immovable object.)
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To: NYer; lightman; SF_Redux

Ping to this...


5 posted on 03/26/2012 2:02:46 PM PDT by carriage_hill (I'll "vote for an orange juice can", over Barry 0bummer and another 4yrs of his Regime From Hell!)
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To: NYer

It’s Maryland, whaddaya expect?


6 posted on 03/26/2012 2:06:35 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (obamacare is an oxymoron.)
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To: NYer

I have friends in the SCA, they drink from chalices all the time. There’s nothing innately religion about chalices. And I’m not seeing “malevolent” mustached smiley. I think what this really is is a bar with a cute name.


7 posted on 03/26/2012 2:08:04 PM PDT by discostu (I did it 35 minutes ago)
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To: NYer

Daniel Chapter 5


8 posted on 03/26/2012 2:10:39 PM PDT by Deepest South
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To: for-q-clinton
Doesn’t the bible say something about idol worship? Cups are cups and only have meaning if you make them into something more than they are.

Then the Ark of the Covenant is an idol by your logic.

The Lord also spoke about not giving what is Holy to dogs. The word "consecrated" is also in the Bible. Just some thoughts.

9 posted on 03/26/2012 2:19:38 PM PDT by frogjerk (OBAMA NOV 2012 = HORSEMEAT)
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To: NYer

The smiley face is the national bohemean beer guy:

http://nationalbohemian.com/

there is nothing malevolent about him.

I do think it’s very wrong to use holy things in a sacriligous way though.


10 posted on 03/26/2012 2:19:40 PM PDT by Ham Hock
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To: Ken H

I would be the last person to want more ‘laws’ for anything..

But it would be nice to know that if a bunch of ‘adults’ or their parents walked in and said “aren’t you ashamed of yourself for this?” that they would be.


11 posted on 03/26/2012 2:29:39 PM PDT by Mr. K (If Romney wins the primary, I am writing-in PALIN)
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To: for-q-clinton

The word chalice appears 24 times in Scripture. The word ignorance appears 23 times. Two facts you most likely are unaware of.


12 posted on 03/26/2012 2:37:39 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: wagglebee; Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Moral outrage ping.


13 posted on 03/26/2012 2:47:48 PM PDT by lightman (Adjutorium nostrum (+) in nomine Domini--nevertheless, Vote Santorum!)
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To: NYer
I can see the "hand writing on the wall"...

Dan 5:1-6 Belshazzar's Feast
Belshazzar the king held a great (1)feast for a thousand of his nobles, and he was drinking wine in the presence of the thousand. (2) When Belshazzar tasted the wine, he gave orders to bring the gold and silver (2)vessels which Nebuchadnezzar his father had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem, so that the king and his nobles, his wives and his concubines might drink from them. (3) Then they brought the gold vessels that had been taken out of the temple, the house of God which was in Jerusalem; and the king and his nobles, his wives and his concubines drank from them. (4) They (3)drank the wine and praised the gods of (4)gold and silver, of bronze, iron, wood and stone. (5) Suddenly the fingers of a man's hand emerged and began writing opposite the lampstand on the plaster of the wall of the king's palace, and the king saw the back of the hand that did the writing. (6) Then the king's (5)face grew pale and his thoughts alarmed him, and his (6)hip joints went slack and his (7)knees began knocking together.

14 posted on 03/26/2012 3:12:01 PM PDT by Sopater (...where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. - 2 COR 3:17b)
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To: frogjerk

Yes if we made fake arks and worshipped them...then yes that is an idol. This is like the Muslims getting upset and violent over Mohamed’s picture.


15 posted on 03/26/2012 3:26:31 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Are you suggesting that only Christians who believe the chalice is some form of super powerful cup should be allowed to drink from them?

Getting outraged over this is what the Muslims do.


16 posted on 03/26/2012 3:30:36 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: Ham Hock
The smiley face is the national bohemean beer guy: http://nationalbohemian.com/ there is nothing malevolent about him.

Apparently you've never had a Natty Boh!

17 posted on 03/26/2012 3:32:51 PM PDT by GnL
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To: NYer; discostu

Most Catholics know that religious items such as a monstrance or chalicess can NOT be sold. They can be put away and then given to a mission church is Asia, South America, Africa — even here in the U. S.

Same with vestments and other religious articles. They cannot be sold.

They are blessed and sacred because of the proper use of them.

So my question of the bar owner is — how did he/she get ahold of them in the first place?

What is happening there is sacreligious and blasphemous.


18 posted on 03/26/2012 3:40:31 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: for-q-clinton

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2864099/posts?page=18#18


19 posted on 03/26/2012 3:43:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

They’re for sale alright.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=monstrance

All that kind of stuff has always been pretty easy to buy even before the internet. Just gotta put some effort into it.


20 posted on 03/26/2012 3:44:49 PM PDT by discostu (I did it 35 minutes ago)
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To: Salvation

>> “They are blessed and sacred because of the proper use of them.” <<

.
Then they are an abomination because they’re idols.


21 posted on 03/26/2012 3:45:42 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor

If you call hold the Body or Blood of Jesus Christ an abomination — I feel sorry for you.

What did I not say in my post to indicate that they are sacred vessels?

Do you consider Holy Water to be an idol too?

How about Palm Btanches — are they idols.

Only if these objects are adored instead of adoring Christ are they idols. And they aren’t, they are just sacred things that have a lot of symbolic meaning.

Do you have a cross in your church? Do you consider it an idol?


22 posted on 03/26/2012 3:54:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: for-q-clinton

You wrote:

“Getting outraged over this is what the Muslims do.”

From a purely logical standpoint your comment is grossly ignorant.

1) According to Islam, Muslims are not to make images of Muhammad. That doesn’t mean a Danish Lutheran can’t make an image of Muhammad. Thus, the Muslims never had a valid reason to be upset in the first place.

2) The Danish Lutheran did not belong to Islam or Muslims. The items in the photos in this thread were owned by and used by Catholics and the Catholic Church. Thus, someone is using OUR sacred items in a profane way. We have every right to be upset with how someone uses property once dedicated to the service of OUR God, OUR Church, and OUR people when that usage is profane to say the least. Also, the items in question are probably stolen to begin with or have been appropriated in a way the original owner - the Church or a cleric - NEVER INTENDED.

3) And in regard to this comment: “Are you suggesting that only Christians who believe the chalice is some form of super powerful cup should be allowed to drink from them?” It is only logical that sacred property should be handled only by those to whom it properly belogs. I would never, EVER, think of using a Methodist ministers chalice for something profane even though he might not even believe in the Real Presence and no miracle takes place in it. To use it in a profane way would simply to denigrate the beliefs and practices of the people who own it. Those of us who are civilized and believe in common decency would not use yarmulke or tallits as napkins. I guess you would?


23 posted on 03/26/2012 4:36:08 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Sopater

Thanks for posting that. I was going to look it up and post it this evening. It was my first thought when I read the article.


24 posted on 03/26/2012 4:36:18 PM PDT by Wicket (God bless and protect our troops and God bless America)
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To: NYer; Abundy; Albion Wilde; AlwaysFree; AnnaSASsyFR; bayliving; BFM; cindy-true-supporter; ...

I wonder what would happen if somebody opened a bar making fun of Islamic holy objects.

Maryland “Freak State” PING!


25 posted on 03/26/2012 4:40:17 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Occupy DC General Assembly: We are Marxist tools. WE ARE MARXIST TOOLS!)
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To: Salvation

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2864099/posts?page=21#21


26 posted on 03/26/2012 4:52:50 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: Salvation

Yes those are all idols if they have so much meaning to them that you can’t understand they are just representations. Unless the Bible specifically says those things are never to fall out of the hands of the church and you should do everything in your power to shut those that do down—then you need to relax a bit. Worship as you see fit and don’t go looking to get upset over others. You should be more concerned with their souls and less with the relics they use.


27 posted on 03/26/2012 4:55:41 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: vladimir998

From a purely logical standpoint you made my point for me.

1) Obviously we don’t think they have a leg to stand on, yet they do it anyway. Kind of like this post...where does it say in the Bible that these specific items are holy and those that use them in the way they are used should be ran out of town? Should we be more concerned with their souls vice what they are doing with our idols?

2) Ah, but who owns them now? The Catholic church should keep control of their idols more closely, less they fall into other’s hands. If these are truly the churches idols they should be able to sue and get them back.

3) Ok so you wouldn’t do this, but these people are. As I said the conversation should be about their souls and praying for them not about idols of the church.


28 posted on 03/26/2012 4:59:58 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: for-q-clinton

You wrote:

“From a purely logical standpoint you made my point for me.”

Not even remotely. You never actually studied logic did you?

“1) Obviously we don’t think they have a leg to stand on, yet they do it anyway. Kind of like this post...where does it say in the Bible that these specific items are holy and those that use them in the way they are used should be ran out of town?”

Please tell me from where in the Bible we get the phrase “Holy Bible”. Can you do that? Since when must a thing be mentioned in the Bible to be holy?

“Should we be more concerned with their souls vice what they are doing with our idols?”

There are no idols involved. No idols were mentioned, described, or photographed. Why are you essentially inventing something that isn’t there?

“2) Ah, but who owns them now? The Catholic church should keep control of their idols more closely, less they fall into other’s hands.”

What idols? The Catholic Church has none. Never did. Also, if this is stolen property, and it might be, how can you blame the victim for the theft? And again, what idols?

“If these are truly the churches idols they should be able to sue and get them back.”

Again, what idols? No idols are mentioned and the Catholic Church has never had any. why are you essentially making things up out of thin air? If you have to make things up - things not remotely mentioned in the article - doesn’t that automatically suggest you have no argument worth noting?

“3) Ok so you wouldn’t do this, but these people are. As I said the conversation should be about their souls and praying for them not about idols of the church.”

Again, there are no idols involved. How can someone who makes things up even consider to have a conversation about the state of someone else’s soul?


29 posted on 03/26/2012 5:12:10 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: editor-surveyor
Then they are an abomination because they’re idols.

By that logic, Biblical Judaism was chock-full of idols, put there by God's express command. One of their "idols" was so sacred that a man who touched it without authorization was instantly struck dead.

They had a building that was an "idol," too -- part of it was so sacred that only one man could enter it, on only one day a year, and then only twice on that day, and only after taking a bath and putting on special clothes.

Again, by God's express, to-the-letter command.

I wonder sometimes if some of the "Bible Christians" who frequent this site ever study the Bible outside of Romans, Galatians, and Revelation.

30 posted on 03/26/2012 6:42:43 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: vladimir998

I need to be careful as this was started in a news section but has been moved to religion. So I don’t want to violate the rules of this forum.

But clearly the way some are acting on this thread reminds me of how muslims act when we burn a Koran. Yet we act like what’s the big deal...same should apply here. It’s not like they are killing God—they may be doing something sacrilegious to you; however, who cares. If the Catholic church thought it was critical they could excommunicate them—if they are catholic.

Once again this is a big to do about nothing. Once the items are no longer used in service and are sold in the open market then they are no longer meaningful for spiritual purposes (unless they are re-purposed for such things).

Is a cross that gets melted down and remade into something else a violation of your church? What if it gets made into a little buddah—is it now bad? What if a buddah is melted and made into a cross? Or what happens to holy water that evaporates and eventually falls to the earth as rain?


31 posted on 03/26/2012 7:21:02 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: for-q-clinton

You wrote:

“Once again this is a big to do about nothing.”

False.

“Once the items are no longer used in service and are sold in the open market then they are no longer meaningful for spiritual purposes (unless they are re-purposed for such things).”

Again, false. These items only have one purpose.

“Is a cross that gets melted down and remade into something else a violation of your church?”

Your analogy is false for nothing has been melted down here. Again, you don’t seem to understand logic.

“What if it gets made into a little buddah—is it now bad?”

A chalice is a chalice. A chalice cannot be a Buddha. Nothing is being re-made here.

“What if a buddah is melted and made into a cross?”

Nothing is being melted down here - except your false arguments.

“Or what happens to holy water that evaporates and eventually falls to the earth as rain?”

Nothing is evaporating here - except any chance you have an argument.


32 posted on 03/26/2012 7:54:49 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: for-q-clinton

Read post 14. In fact, why don’t you read the Old Testament.


33 posted on 03/26/2012 8:03:38 PM PDT by Lil Flower (American by birth. Southern by the Grace of God! ROLL TIDE!!)
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To: vladimir998

wrong...clearly a chalice can be used for other things...as proven by this bar. Same thing with the candy dispenser. Is it tasteless—to many yes.

Will it cause all catholics to go to hell and lose their religion? Nope.


34 posted on 03/26/2012 8:06:26 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: editor-surveyor

Have you ever bothered to read the book of Daniel? Well go read it and see what God thought of the golden vessels being stolen from the Jewish temple and used to get drunk with.


35 posted on 03/26/2012 8:09:34 PM PDT by Lil Flower (American by birth. Southern by the Grace of God! ROLL TIDE!!)
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To: Lil Flower

Right, but I’m more of a new testament Christian. Got anything in that book about this stuff?


36 posted on 03/26/2012 8:09:55 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: for-q-clinton

Well the church isn’t a building its the people, so I say you open the doors of church for drinking parties on Fri. nights.


37 posted on 03/26/2012 8:14:41 PM PDT by Lil Flower (American by birth. Southern by the Grace of God! ROLL TIDE!!)
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To: Lil Flower

A pagan catholic implement of idolatry is not equivalent to a temple vessel ordained by YHWH. Not even close.


38 posted on 03/26/2012 8:17:46 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: Lil Flower

Ever wonder why the #2 commandments was dropped and the 10th commandment was split into #9 & #10? At least on the catholic side?

I think that’s why we won’t agree on this. So we’ll need to let it rest. Catholics don’t have an issue with idolatry and protestants do. Might be due to our 2nd commandment being different, so looks like we aren’t going to fix that anytime soon.


39 posted on 03/26/2012 8:20:22 PM PDT by for-q-clinton (If at first you don't succeed keep on sucking until you do succeed)
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To: Salvation

They are sold all the time. Look on ebay or call businesses which deal in antique silver. We gave the priest at our church a beautiful antique chalice amd paten that we bought from an antique silver dealer in Atlanta.


40 posted on 03/26/2012 8:23:29 PM PDT by kalee (The offenses we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we engrave in marble. J Huett 1658)
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To: for-q-clinton

Well you can be whatever you want. But in the New Testament God makes it clear that he does not change. He is the same God in the Old and New Testament. So in all actuality there is no such thing as a New Testament Christian, because to reject part of God’s Word is the same as rejecting Jesus Himself, because he is the Word. And that my friend, you can find in the New Testament.


41 posted on 03/26/2012 8:25:00 PM PDT by Lil Flower (American by birth. Southern by the Grace of God! ROLL TIDE!!)
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: for-q-clinton

Catholics do believe idolatry is a sin, and you are continuing to show your ignorance of Catholic Christians and Sacred Scripture.


43 posted on 03/26/2012 8:34:02 PM PDT by Lil Flower (American by birth. Southern by the Grace of God! ROLL TIDE!!)
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To: for-q-clinton

You wrote:

“wrong...clearly a chalice can be used for other things...as proven by this bar.”

Wrong. It is not being properly used according to why it was made.

“Same thing with the candy dispenser. Is it tasteless—to many yes.”

It is not about taste. It is about dedication. Once dedicated to God in its purpose a chalice cannot be used properly otherwise.

“Will it cause all catholics to go to hell and lose their religion? Nope.”

No, but your analogy was wrong nonetheless. When you can explain why it is the “Holy Bible” but “Holy Bible” is not mentioned anywhere in scripture let me know.


44 posted on 03/26/2012 8:34:34 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: for-q-clinton

Well since you are a New Testament Christian, I wouldn’t think you are knowledgeable enough to comment on the 10 Commandments.


45 posted on 03/26/2012 8:37:29 PM PDT by Lil Flower (American by birth. Southern by the Grace of God! ROLL TIDE!!)
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To: Campion

If they’re there by YHWH’s command, they’re not idols, but nothing in the ‘catholic’ church has anything to do with His commandments. Its a cesspool of idolatry.


46 posted on 03/26/2012 8:39:03 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: for-q-clinton

>> “Doesn’t the bible say something about idol worship? Cups are cups and only have meaning if you make them into something more than they are.” <<

.
Catholics don’t buy that Bible stuff; they’re into traditions of men, not cammandments of YHWH.


47 posted on 03/26/2012 8:43:27 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: frogjerk; for-q-clinton

>> “Then the Ark of the Covenant is an idol by your logic.” <<

.
No, the ark was built under commandment of YHWH; those trinkets are just corruptions of worship invented by men. The cup has no importance; the wine in it commemorates the shed blood of Christ.
.


48 posted on 03/26/2012 8:48:40 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Words are to be worshiped now?
.


49 posted on 03/26/2012 8:50:40 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: Salvation

>> “What did I not say in my post to indicate that they are sacred vessels?” <<

.
Vessels cannot be sacred; they are mere implements. To consider the implements of the Lord’s Supper as sacred puts them on a level equal to your salvation, which cannot be so; your salvation is by the grace of YHWH, not man.
.


50 posted on 03/26/2012 8:57:33 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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