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Survey on Mormon Disbelievers to be Released at UVU Forum [74% point to theological concerns]
Salt Lake City Weekly ^ | March 28, 2012 | Eric Peterson

Posted on 03/29/2012 5:37:17 AM PDT by Colofornian

John Dehlin first started the Open Stories Foundation as a means of giving Mormons with questions of faith a neutral resource for questions. Now, after having polled more than 3,000 doubting members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dehlin will release his survey results at a conference at Utah Valley University on Thursday.

“I went through my own struggles with my testimony 11 or 12 years ago when I was seminary teacher,” Dehlin says. “It was really painful and hard for me...”

Since that time, Dehlin has started a podcast, Mormon Stories, that runs in conjunction with his nonprofit the Open Stories Foundation. The organization and the podcast...host...discussions on tough subjects in LDS teachings, from polygamy to the delays in allowing Black members to receive the priesthood. Since doing the podcast, Dehlin has been working on a survey of individuals in the church who are having a crisis of faith...

The survey focuses just on disbelieving Mormons and tries to get a glimpse of who they are, whether they are still active in the church or have since left the faith.

For example, Dehlin notes that 87 percent of male and 77 percent of female respondents had church callings before they began to question their faith. The survey even found that 20 percent of male respondents had served as bishops.

The results also examine factors that have pushed members to doubt the church’s teachings, with 74 percent of respondents citing ceasing to believe in the theology as a major factor...

“Hopefully, members of the church and church leaders will stereotype them less, punish them less and, frankly, become more aware of the difficult issues themselves so they can at least have empathy for those who struggle,” Dehlin says.

To check out the survey, visit www.WhyMormonsQuestion.Org...

(Excerpt) Read more at cityweekly.net ...


TOPICS: Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: disbelievers; inman; lds; mormon; survey
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From the article: having polled more than 3,000 doubting members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dehlin will release his survey results at a conference at Utah Valley University on Thursday. “I went through my own struggles with my testimony 11 or 12 years ago when I was seminary teacher,” Dehlin says. ...Dehlin notes that 87 percent of male and 77 percent of female respondents had church callings before they began to question their faith. The survey even found that 20 percent of male respondents had served as bishops. The results also examine factors that have pushed members to doubt the church’s teachings, with 74 percent of respondents citing ceasing to believe in the theology as a major factor...

(So much for those who portend that "theology" doesn't matter)

Per the survey results from over 3,000 Mormons seriously reviewing their faith --
--see UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens to them when they do? for 26-page results!
-- Here are the top five "General Factors Contributing to Disbelief"...[this is found on page 8 chart of results]:

1. I ceased to believe in the church's doctrine/theology (74%)
2. I studied church history and lost my belief (70%)
3. I lost faith in Joseph Smith (70%) [my note: A very bad place to place & transfer faith toward to begin with!]
4. I lost faith in the Book of Mormon (65%)
5. I lost confidence in the general authorities (50%)

Two other factors within the Top 10 included

"I did not feel spiritually edified at church" (47%)

and "Church's stance on race issues (blacks, native Americans, etc.)" (43%).

In contrast to the reasons Mormons & Mormon leaders often pin upon such disbelievers, only 4% said it was because they were offended by someone in the church and 4% also pinpointed "I wanted to engage in behaviors viewed as sinful by the church" [the very bottom reasons listed on the chart].

12% said they "received a spiritual witness to leave the church and go elsewhere"...Over 1/4 said they lost their faith in God/Jesus.

1 posted on 03/29/2012 5:37:25 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
From the 26-page results found @ UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens to them when they do?:

In breaking down specific factors of import to provoking Mormon women vs. men into disbelief of their faith...
...polygamy/polyandry was actually THE TOP specific issue of concern to women surveyed...probably because they realized the "underlying" character of Joseph Smith...especially as one who would "marry" 11 already-married women...
...for men the #1 specific issue has been learning the reality how the Book of Abraham that Joseph Smith pretended to "translate" has been revealed to be an Egyptian funeral document. This specific issue is of major concern among men in their 30s, or 40s -- per p. 11 bar-chart.

Three other key specific issues among men in their 30s & 40s (in ranked order) were:

* Masonic influences in the temple ceremony

* Issues with the authenticity or credibility of the priesthood restoration

* Mountain meadows massacre [the first 9/11 terrorist slaughter in this country]

Iow...when Mormon study history...they see Joseph Smith was...
...influenced more horizontally [polygamy -- in bed -- with women; & "theft" -- horizontal "borrowing" of temple ceremony components] than he was vertically as a so-called "receiver" of direct "revelations" from the Mormon gods...
...and that also extends to Joseph Smith's "First Vision" accounts.

On this last one, we have to "read in" to the survey results as to what has bothered Mormon men in their 30s & 40s...but I think it is:
(a) Too many varied First Vision accounts;
(b) Its universal claims -- that 100% of Christian creeds are an "abomination" to the Mormon god

The Apostles Creed, for example, doesn't really have anything objectionable to Mormon beliefs. Yet the unnamed entities which appeared to Joseph Smith labeled it an "abomination" along with the rest of Christian creeds.

2 posted on 03/29/2012 5:47:55 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian
We have researched Mormon faith as much as possible on the web over several weeks. My son and I made it a project to try to understand the basis of the faith and it's "evolution" over the past few decades.

The institutionalized discrimination against people of color was of particular concern. I'm glad it's not part of the general doctrine promoted today, but it's too recent to escape questioning, IMHO.

My p"art Lamanite" son agrees, although I'll abstain from posting his thoughts.

Concerns indeed!

I will say the Mormons I know are uniformly good, decent and hard working people. I don't discuss faith with them at all. I don't know how they'd reconcile themselves with these facts. I wonder how they would respond to the questions we have? I would prefer to dismiss it altogether and simply accept them and leave them to their faith.

The next set of Missionaries, however, will need to have some good answers.

3 posted on 03/29/2012 5:53:46 AM PDT by Caipirabob (I say we take off and Newt the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...)
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To: Caipirabob
We have researched Mormon faith as much as possible on the web over several weeks...The institutionalized discrimination against people of color was of particular concern. I'm glad it's not part of the general doctrine promoted today, but it's too recent to escape questioning, IMHO. My p"art Lamanite" son agrees, although I'll abstain from posting his thoughts. Concerns indeed! I will say the Mormons I know are uniformly good, decent and hard working people. I don't discuss faith with them at all. I don't know how they'd reconcile themselves with these facts. I wonder how they would respond to the questions we have?

Perhaps you saw the other thread I posted this morning...mentioning a number of "Lamanite" Mormon "scriptures"..."scriptures" that haven't been removed from Lds teaching today worldwide...[SINCE the Lds church is STILL reprinting & translating MILLIONS of these...they're still "teaching" it!]:

Here's that thread: "Renounce and Repudiate": Will Republicans Hold Romney to Obama Standard?

4 posted on 03/29/2012 6:00:44 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Caipirabob
I will say the Mormons I know are uniformly good, decent and hard working people. I don't discuss faith with them at all. I don't know how they'd reconcile themselves with these facts.

#1...when you auditioning for godhood, of course you'll be on your best behavior!

#2...when you check out "goodness" under the hood, so to speak, Jesus of the Bible did NOT share that presumption.

He said: "'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good--except God alone.'" (Mark 10:18).

Jesus wasn't saying He personally wasn't good; but He was addressing the misguided presumption behind the comment: That man is good…[I believe Jesus is addressed man’s isness at root…]

Jesus levels the playing field before the cross by undercutting any spiritual pride that presumes anybody from any religion doesn’t need Him as our great physician ("It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick...For I have NOT COME to call the righteous, but sinners."--Matthew 9:12)

Jesus is for the person who understands their personal cancerous diagnosis of sin.

...we're all spiritually unhealthy and depraved -- including your "good"…
…Mormons
…Christians
…other religious

[Clarification on “depraved”: It doesn't mean being as bad as we can be; just that no part of our being is untouched by sin].

Yet that doesn't pre-empt people from all faiths accomplishing some degree of good works. I would quickly add, though, whatever “degree” that is, it’s vastly overstated. Why?

* Some folks do good works and give the credit for those works to God the Holy Spirit working through them – yet Christianity & some of the cults are usually the only ones who acknowledge the Holy Spirit to begin with;
* Some folks do outwardly good works and assume the credit for themselves, stealing God's glory. Theft of God's glory thereby defeats any act otherwise qualifying itself as "good"...
...which leads us directly back to my #1 basic Mormon premise: Temple Mormons (not all Mormons, but temple Mormons) are essentially auditioning for godhood with good works. And with that, I say, that’s a self-defeating proposition. When a boomerang motive underlies good works, those works become selfish, disqualifying in God’s eyes the “goodness” of that work. God sees the heart, not just the outward outcome.

5 posted on 03/29/2012 6:06:40 AM PDT by Colofornian ( Tell us: Why do we want to vote for ONE socialist to defeat ANOTHER socialist again?)
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To: Colofornian

There are numerous reasons why a Mormon might lose his testimony. Here are a few of the most obvious ...

  1. The Book of Mormon: the "most correct of any book on earth" containing stories of mass migrations in submarine barges, snakes herding cattle, American Indians smelting steel and riding about in horse drawn chariots, and so much, much more.

  2. The Book of Abraham: Joseph's translation completely debunked by Egyptologists. The poor guy missed the author of the document, the purpose for the document, and every single word contained in the document.

  3. The Failed Prophesies: dozens to choose from including such gems as the violent overthrow of the United States in the 1830's, to the second coming of Christ sometime before 1891, to the discovery of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel living in cement houses in a valley near the North Pole, to the finding the moon is inhabited by men dressed like Quakers, to the prediction the earth has knobs on each end. Joseph wasn't afraid go for broke. And he got there time and time again.

  4. The First Vision: or more specifically, the nine different versions of the first vision; or ten if you include the Salamander account pronounced genuine by LDS Church leadership.

  5. The 1826 Bainbridge Conviction for Fraud: the Conquistador's gold was really down there on that farm in Northern Pennsylvania. It wasn't Joseph's fault the farmer dug so slowly the ground opened up and kept swallowing the treasure.

  6. The Book of Commandments / Doctrine and Covenants: supposedly dictated to the prophet by Mormonism's god, but changed thousands of times and still replete with examples of false statements and contradictions with other Mormon scripture.

  7. The Kirtland Safety Society: Joseph preceded the Enron scandal by 170 years with what was for years the largest financial fraud in U.S. history (and still one of the most blatant). This happened shortly after Mormonism's god promised the banking institution, "like Aaron's rod shall swallow up all other banks … and grow and flourish and spread from the rivers to the ends of the earth, and survive when all others should be laid in ruins."

  8. The United Order: Rigdon talked Smith into trying communism about 30 years or so before Marx and Engels. The Saints got the same economic results as other “workers’ paradises” such as the Soviet Union, Cuba and North Korea. The Saints eventually abandoned this commandment in favor of “the law of tithing” even though the United Order was proclaimed to be “an everlasting order for the benefit of my church, and for the salvation of men until I [Jesus] come.”

  9. The Garden of Eden located in Independence, Missouri: This was the place where Adam and Eve were given Sacred Temple Garments (long johns with secret Masonic symbols) to cover their nakedness after they were expelled from paradise.

  10. The Kinderhook Plates: a hoax by evil gentiles who took pieces of brass, and then inspired by the characters on a box of Chinese green tea, etched strange markings on them with acid. Joseph pronounced the artifacts genuine and determined they contained information about a descendant of Ham.

  11. Doctrine & Covenants Section 132: polygamy as a result of a "new and everlasting covenant … [and] if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory." This revelation convinced more than thirty women, many in their teens and several married to other men, to share Joseph's celestial bed. And it ruined the lives of thousands of his devout followers. And exactly how does one get rid of something that is “everlasting”? The LDS Church has been trying to figure that one out since the Federal Government almost put them out of business in 1887.

  12. The Science of Kolob: the Sun borrows its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, and other stars receive their power through the revolutions of Kolob. Similarly, the earth receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam.

  13. Salvation through Joseph: or more specifically, the idea no one receives exaltation without recognizing Smith is a prophet of god and will pass before him in order to gain entry to the highest kingdom of heaven.

  14. The Eternal Progression: As man now is, god once was. As god now is, man may become.

  15. I'm greater than Jesus: Joseph's pompous boast made on May 26, 1844. Less than a month later, the vain prophet Joseph Smith was thrown down exactly as he prophesied.


6 posted on 03/29/2012 6:11:25 AM PDT by Zakeet (Obozo is to competent as an Etch-A-Sketch is to art)
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To: Zakeet
I'm greater than Jesus: Joseph's pompous boast made on May 26, 1844. Less than a month later, the vain prophet Joseph Smith was thrown down exactly as he prophesied.

JESUS: Hey Smith!       Remember that boast you made about doing more than even I had done to hold the 'church' together?

JOSEPH SMITH: Where am I?

JESUS: Don't you remember? A few seconds ago you were in that jail.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah; but where am I NOW?

JESUS: Don't you remember? Does bang - bang ring a bell?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh; yeah - that crummy gun I had was about USELESS!

JESUS: I hope you left instructions on how to hold your church together.

JOSEPH SMITH: Dang! I knew there was SOMETHING I was forgetting!

JESUS: Looks like there's a power struggle going on down there.

JOSEPH SMITH: Yeah; there was always SOMEone who wanted the power that I held - especially over the LADIES - wink wink.

JESUS: No need to worry about that now; remember what my friend Matthew wrote down?

JOSEPH SMITH: This? “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30)

JESUS: That's it.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: Nah - it was right.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh well; it was fun while it lasted. My buds will still get it on with the girls.

JESUS: Uh; I'm sorry; in just a few more years; your followers will cavein to the United States government and abandon the 'Eternal Covenant' that you came up with.

JOSEPH SMITH: ME!? YOU are the one that told me to do that!

JESUS: Sorry; but you must have mistranslated what I told you. What part of Do NOT commit ADULTERY did you not understand?

JOSEPH SMITH: mumble....

JESUS: What did you say?

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, nothing.

JESUS: Well; it was interesting talking to you; but now I must get back to perparing a place for those who believe in Me.

JOSEPH SMITH: Oh, yeah; the Celestial Kingdom.

JESUS: No...

JOSEPH SMITH: The Telestial one?

JESUS: Nope.

JOSEPH SMITH: SUREly not the TERRESTRIAL one!!

JESUS: Nope. Didn't you read that the mind of man had NOT conceived of it? Paul wrote it down in 1 Corinthians 2:9.

JOSEPH SMITH: I thought that was mistranslated.

JESUS: No; it wasn't.

JOSEPH SMITH: You SURE?

JESUS: Yes. Now I must be going: what did you say your name was again?

JOSEPH SMITH: Joseph Smith.

JESUS: Hmmmm. According to my Heavenly FAITHbook, you didn't sign in as one of my friends - sorry, I never knew you.

JOSEPH SMITH: But.... 

7 posted on 03/29/2012 6:36:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian; Elsie

I would like a “nice” Mormon to look me in the face and tell me what they think of me, a Christian, in light of this passage STRAIGHT FROM THE BOOK OF MORMON


1 NEPHI 14:10

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the bother is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.


Doesn’t sound real “nice” to me


8 posted on 03/29/2012 7:30:00 AM PDT by freedomlover (Make sure you're in love - before you move in the heavy stuff)
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To: Colofornian; Elsie

“Hopefully, members of the church and church leaders will stereotype them less, punish them less and, frankly, become more aware of the difficult issues themselves so they can at least have empathy for those who struggle”


Good luck with that. Challenging the One True Church = Shun The Unbeliever!!


9 posted on 03/29/2012 7:36:13 AM PDT by freedomlover (Make sure you're in love - before you move in the heavy stuff)
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To: freedomlover; Colofornian; Zakeet
Challenging the One True Church = Shun The Unbeliever!!

Active shunning of "apostates" is an accepted method of control by the mormon leadership, as it is in other cults. This is illustrated in this article by Dallin H Oaks, one of the twelve "apostles" of the mormon church.

From the official LDS website

FR thread on "Love and Law" HERE

An informative post from the FR thread by A More Perfect Union Post #46

10 posted on 03/29/2012 9:45:58 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Praise Jesus! I have been redeemed from the "restoration" of mormonism!)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Ping to post #10


11 posted on 03/29/2012 9:47:16 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Praise Jesus! I have been redeemed from the "restoration" of mormonism!)
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To: Colofornian

1. I ceased to believe in the church’s doctrine/theology (74%)
2. I studied church history and lost my belief (70%)
3. I lost faith in Joseph Smith (70%) [my note: A very bad place to place & transfer faith toward to begin with!]
4. I lost faith in the Book of Mormon (65%)
5. I lost confidence in the general authorities (50%)

- - - - -
All of that happened to me, but in a different order.

For me it was 5, 2, 1, 3, 4.


12 posted on 03/29/2012 9:57:17 AM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian "I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see")
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To: freedomlover
Doesn’t sound real “nice” to me

You must be a hankerin' fer The LIST!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

13 posted on 03/29/2012 1:12:59 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

Why??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs&feature=player_embedded


14 posted on 03/29/2012 1:20:24 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
 
 


Welcome to MORMONism 101

 

While we are waiting to start; enjoy the artwork on our walls.

If some of it seems shifty to you, just look at it real closely

 and it will stop moving, but another location will then start to crawl on you.

Do NOT think our DOCTRINE is this way!

 


 

 


15 posted on 03/29/2012 1:21:04 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
And why there are articles by LDS 'non-faithful' historians on difficulties they face, where one footnote linking other journal articles on the difficulties caused by Packer and 'faith-promoting' history look like this:

"For other (sometimes academic, sometimes personal) statements by historians of Mormon background concerning the writing of Mormon history, see notes 4 and 5 above, and also Leonard J. Arrington, "Preface," Great Basin Kingdom: An Economic History of the Latter-day Saints, 1830-1900 (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1958), esp. viii-ix;
 
Marvin S. Hill, "The Historiography of Mormonism," Church History 28 (Dec. 1959): 418-26;
Klaus J.Hansen, "Reflections on the Writing of Mormon History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 1 (Spring 1966): 158-60;
Richard L. Bushman, "Taking Mormonism Seriously," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 1 (Summer 1966): 81-84;
Bushman, "The Future of Mormon History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought (Autumn 1966): 23-26;
Arrington, "The Search for Truth and Meaning in Mormon History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 3 (Summer 1968): 56-66;
Bushman, "Faithful History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 4 (Winter 1969): 11-25;
Fawn M. Brodie, Can We Manipulate the Past? (Salt Lake City: Center for the Study of the American West, University of Utah, 1970);
Richard D. Poll, "God and Man in History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 7 (Spring 1972): 101-09;
Hill, "Brodie Revisited: A Reappraisal," Dialogue: A [p.100]Journal of Mormon Thought 7 (Winter 1972): 85;
Hill, "Secular or Sectarian History? A Critique of No Man Knows My History," Church History 43 (Mar. 1974): 78-96;
William Mulder, "Fatherly Advice," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 9 (Winter 1974): 77-80;
Mulder, "History Is Then and Now: A Conversation with Leonard J. Arrington, Church Historian," Ensign 5 (July 1975): 8-13;
Mulder, "The Mormon Angle of Historical Vision: Some Maverick Reflections," and Marvin S. Hill, "The 'Prophet Puzzle' Assembled: Or, How to Treat Our Historical Diplopia toward Joseph Smith,: Journal of Mormon History 3 (1976): 13-22, 101-05;
Poll, "Nauvoo and the New Mormon History: A Bibliographical Survey," Journal of Mormon History 5 (1978): 105-123;
James B. Allen, "Line Upon Line," Ensign 9 (July 1979): 32-39;
Charles S. Peterson, "Mormon History: Some Problems and Prospects," Encyclia: Journal of the Utah Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters 56 (1979): 114-26;
Charles S. Peterson, "Mormon History: A Dialogue with Jan Shipps, Richard Bushman, and Leonard Arrington," Century 2 [BYU] 4 (Spring-Summer 1980): 27-39;
Richard Sherlock, "The Gospel beyond Time: Thoughts on the Relation of Faith and Historical Knowledge," Sunstone 5, (July-Aug. 1980): 20-23;
James L. Clayton, "History and Theology: The Mormon Connections: A Response," Sunstone 5 (Nov.-Dec. 1980): 51-53;
Roger Elvin Borg, "Theological Marionettes': Historicism in Mormon History," Thetean: A Student Journal of History (Provo, UT: Beta Iota Chapter of Phi Alpha Theta, Brigham Young University, 1981): 5-20;
 
Arrington, "The Writing of Latter-day Saint History: Problems, Accomplishments, and Admonitions," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 14 (Fall 1981): 119-29;
Davis Bitton, "Mormon Biography," Biography: An Interdisciplinary Quarterly 4 (Winter 1981): 1-16;
Clayton, "Does History Undermine Faith?" Sunstone 7 (Mar.-Apr. 1982): 33-40;
Ronald K. Esplin, "How Then Should We Write History? Another View," Sunstone 7 (Mar.-Apr. 1982): 41-45;
Jay Fox, "Clio and Calliope: Writing Imaginative Histories of the Pacific," Proceedings of the Mormon Pacific Historical Society, Third Annual Conference, April 10, 1982, 12-19;
Ronald W. Walker, "The Nature and Craft of Mormon Biography," Brigham Young University Studies 22 (Spring 1982); 179-92;
Bitton, "Like the Tigers of Old Time," Sunstone 7 (Sept.-Oct. 1982): 44-48; Melvin T. Smith, "Faithful History: Hazards and Limitations," Journal of Mormon History 9 (1982): 61-69;
Arrington, "Personal Reflections on Mormon History," Sunstone 8 (July - Aug. 1983): 41-45;
Smith, Faithful History/Secular Faith," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 16 (Winter 1983): 65-71;
Thomas G. Alexander, "Toward the New Mormon History: An Examination of the Literature on the Latter-day Saints in the Far West," in Michael P. Malone, ed., Historians and the American West (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1983), 344-68; Smith, "Faithful History/Secular Religion," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 3 (1983): 51-58;
Hill, "Richard L. Bushman: Scholar and Apologist," Journal of Mormon History 11 [p.101](1984): 125-33;
Lavina Fielding Anderson, "The Assimilation of Mormon History: Modern Mormon Historical Novels," Mormon Letters Annual, 1983 (Salt Lake City: Association for Mormon Letters, 1984), 1-9;
 
Arrington, "Why I Am a Believer," and Walker, "A Way Station," Sunstone 10 (Apr. 1985): 36-38, 58-59;
Grant Underwood, "Re-visioning Mormon History," Pacific Historical Review 55 (Aug. 1986): 403-26;
Alexander, "No Way to Build Bridges," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 22 (Spring 1989): 5;
Hill, "The New Mormon History Reassessed in Light of Recent Books on Joseph Smith and Mormon Origins," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 21 (Autumn 1988): 115-27;
Poll, History and Faith: Reflections of a Mormon Historian (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1989);
 
Hansen, "Arrington's Historians," Sunstone 13 (Aug. 1989: 41-43; "Coming to Terms with Mormon History: An Interview with Leonard Arrington," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 22 (Winter 1989): 39-54;
 
Hill, "Afterword," Brigham Young University Studies 30 (Fall1990): 117-24;
David B. Honey and Daniel C. Peterson, "Advocacy and Inquiry in Mormon Historiography," Brigham Young University Studies 31 (Spring 1991): 139-79;
Gary James Bergera, "The New Mormon Anti-Intellectualism," Sunstone 15 (June 1991): 53-55;
D. Michael Quinn, "Editor's Introduction," The New Mormon History: Revisionist Essays on the Mormon Past (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1991);
Malcolm R. Thorp, "Some Reflections on New Mormon History and the Possibilities of a 'New' Traditional History," Sunstone 15 (Nov. 1991): 39-46;
Douglas F. Tobler and S. George Ellsworth, "History: Significance to Latter-day Saints," in Ludlow, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 3:595-98;
Richard P. Howard, Restoration Scriptures: A Study of Their Textual Development (Independence, MO: Herald House, 1969);
Richard P. Howard, "Latter Day Saint Scriptures and the Doctrine of Propositional Revelation," and Paul M. Edwards, "Why Am I Afraid to Tell You Who I Am?" in Courage: A Journal of History, Thought and Action 1 (June 1971): 209-25, 241-46;
Richard P. Howard, "The Effect of Time and Changing Conditions on Our Knowledge of History," Saints' Herald 120 (June 1973): 54;
Paul M. Edwards, "The Irony of Mormon History," Utah Historical Quarterly 41 (Autumn 1973): 393-409;
Robert B. Flanders, "Some Reflections on the New Mormon History," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 9 (Spring 1974): 34-41;
Richard P. Howard, "The Historical Method as the Key to Understanding Our Heritage," Saints' Herald 121 (Nov. 1974): 53;
Paul M. Edwards, "The Secular Smiths," Journal of Mormon History 4 (1977): 3-17;
F. Henry Edwards, "Engagement with Church History," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 1 (1981): 30-33;
Richard P. Howard, "Adjusting Theological Perspectives to Historical Reality," Saints' Herald 129 (Sept. 1982): 28;
C. Robert Mesle, "History, Faith, and Myth," Sunstone 7 (Nov.-Dec. 1982): 10-13;
Richard P. Howard, "Themes in Latter Day Saint History," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 2 (1982): 23-29;
Richard P. Howard, "The Changing RLDS Response to Mormon Polygamy: A Preliminary Analysis," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 3 (1983): 14-28;
Richard P. Howard, "The Problem of History and Revelation," Saints' Herald 131 (Oct. 1984): 24;
Paul M. Edwards, "Our Own Story," Sunstone 10 (Jan.-Feb. 1985): 40-41;
Alma R. Blair, "RLDS Views of Polygamy: Some Historiographical Notes," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 5 (1985): 16-28;
Paul M. Edwards, "The New Mormon History," Saints' Herald 133 (Nov. 1986): 12-14, 20;
W. Grant McMurray, "'As Historians and Not as Partisans': The Writing of Official History in the RLDS Church," and Roger D. Launius, "A New Historiographical Frontier: The Reorganization in the Twentieth Century," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 6 (1986): 43-52, 53-63;
 
Don H. Compier, "History and the Problem of Evil: Reflections on the Philosophical and Theological Implications of the 'New Mormon History,'" and Flanders, "Review," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 8 (1988): 45-53, 91-93;
Roger D. Launius, "Whither Reorganization Historiography?"; Paul M. Edwards, "A Time and a Season: History as History," John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 10 (1990): 24-50, 85-90; and Paul M. Edwards, "A Community of Heart," Journal of Mormon History 17 (1991): 28-34;
 
Leonard J. Arrington, "Historian as Entrepreneur: A Personal Essay," Brigham Young University Studies 17 (Winter 1977): 193-209;
Arrington, "The Writing of Latter-day Saint History: Problems, Accomplishments and Admonitions," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 14 (Fall 1981): 119-29;
Davis Bitton, "Ten Years in Camelot: A Personal Memoir," Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 16 (Autumn 1983): 9-35;
Howard C. [p.97]Searle, "Historians, Church," in Ludlow, Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:591."

So it may not be doctrine, but it makes a big difference if you're writing or researching LDS history, this 'faith-promoting' deal.

We even have faithful reviews of non-faithful books about writing faithful history published by faithful history journals: Gary F. Novak, "Review of Faithful History: Essays on Writing Mormon History by George D. Smith," FARMS Review of Books 5/1 (1993).

16 posted on 03/29/2012 1:22:10 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
 
THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 16
 
The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
 
 
 1 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
  2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
  3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
  4 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
  5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
  6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
  7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
  8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
  9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
  10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
  11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
  12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
  13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
  14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the aRed Sea.
  15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.
  16 And we did follow the adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.
  17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.
  18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
  19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.
  20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.
  21 Now  it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
  22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
  23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
  24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
  25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.
  26 And it came to pass  that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.
  27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.
  28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
  29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.
  30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the adirections which were given upon the ball.
  31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.
  32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.
  33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.
  34 And it came to pass that aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called bNahom.
  35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.
  36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to areturn again to Jerusalem.
  37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.
  38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman bstir up their hearts to canger.
  39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.


17 posted on 03/29/2012 1:23:13 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian

Thank you, I will read it and have my son take a look.


18 posted on 03/29/2012 4:56:23 PM PDT by Caipirabob (I say we take off and Newt the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...)
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To: Colofornian
YIKES!!!

Imagine these (like Jacob 3:5) embedded in hundreds of 30 second sound bytes!

Romney is done before he started.

Also, with the race-hatred obozo is stirring up, this could seriously endanger other mormons.

This is going to get very ugly.

19 posted on 03/29/2012 5:01:57 PM PDT by Caipirabob (I say we take off and Newt the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure...)
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To: Caipirabob
This is going to get very ugly.

We have been sounding the alarm since Romney ran in 2007. Don't say you haven't been warned.

20 posted on 03/29/2012 6:05:28 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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