Notes: Mormonism and the Internet [Duplicity/mixed messages cited; baptism-of-dead issue lingers]

...notes from...Utah Valley University’s Mormonism and the Internet conference.

...Charge of modern Mormon duplicity: behind...public image of friendly clean-cut family types...are dark secrets and a sinister agenda. Brooks cites Daymon Smith’s ideas on Mormon discursive practices: trustworthy (official LDS) versus untrustworthy (other) sources; insider versus outsider narratives; guarded public speech to avoid open discussion of private LDS knowledge. Do Mormons have a divided sense of self? Do LDS scholars write to different (insider and outsider) audiences?

Traditional theocratic control of LDS history and sources contrasted with...open source world of modern digital media...

...Q&A session with Joanna Brooks: ...lingering fears of LDS scholars publishing critical research on controversial LDS topics...What’s...next controversial issue? She thinks baptism for the dead will continue to circulate...dearth of official statements or commentary contributes to...persistence and circularity of public discussion...Young LDS get inconsistent messages from parents, church, media on what LDS culture and identity are!...Lots of older pamphlets and talks available online but not at LDS.org, how do we assess...validity or accuracy?...illustrates...difficulty raised by...correlated presentation...from official channels versus conflicting information and accounts...now broadly available from online sites and sources.

John Dehlin: “Why Mormons Leave, and How the Internet is Helping” – Dehlin referenced Elder Jensen’s comments acknowledging...effect of Internet information on LDS exit (aka leaving the Church) as...lead-in to his presentation of results from his own Mormon Stories survey of...reasons for LDS exits...Reasons given by survey respondents don’t match...standard LDS menu of reasons for exit (they were offended, they sinned...). Common issues...include LDS history, loss of faith in leaders...Has...Internet helped Mormons who struggle with doubt? Yes, they know they’re not alone; ...Internet accelerates...learning process for those who embrace their doubts and are moving out of the Church...

Lds tied in a "Mormonism and the Internet" conference as a prelude to their weekend General Conference.

Notes from Mormons on this week's "Mormonism and the Internet" conference...first from Mormon Joanna Brooks' message:

Ah, we've noted these exact same trends/characteristics among Mormon FREEPERS for years!

More from Brooks: Traditional theocratic control of LDS history and sources contrasted with...open source world of modern digital media...

Yup. Squelching, censoring Lds history just doesn't "cut it" anymore in an open Internet world. "Faith-promoting" Pollyanish presentations just is "old world."

More Brooks: ...Q&A session with Joanna Brooks: ...lingering fears of LDS scholars publishing critical research on controversial LDS topics...What’s...next controversial issue? She thinks baptism for the dead will continue to circulate...dearth of official statements or commentary contributes to...persistence and circularity of public discussion...Young LDS get inconsistent messages from parents, church, media on what LDS culture and identity are!...Lots of older pamphlets and talks available online but not at LDS.org, how do we assess...validity or accuracy?...illustrates...difficulty raised by...correlated presentation...from official channels versus conflicting information and accounts...now broadly available from online sites and sources.

Why, imagine that! Lds.org hides quite a bit of its leaders' pamphlets, sermons, talks, etc.! The info still makes it to the Internet...all while Lds, Inc. does a "no comment" on that content...And the effect of Lds, Inc. mixed messages upon younger Mormons? They are awash -- unstable -- in trying to figure out what does a Mormon "identity" even look like...It seems like as they try to nail jello to a tree, all Lds, Inc. helps them with is, "Yup...it should be green jello!" That's the basic extent of their "firm" theological, historical, and sociological guidance!

And from John Dehlin's session: effect of Internet information on LDS exit (aka leaving the Church) as...lead-in to his presentation of results from his own Mormon Stories survey of...reasons for LDS exits...Reasons given by survey respondents don’t match...standard LDS menu of reasons for exit (they were offended, they sinned...).Common issues...include LDS history, loss of faith in leaders...Has...Internet helped Mormons who struggle with doubt? Yes, they know they’re not alone; ...Internet accelerates...learning process for those who embrace their doubts and are moving out of the Church...

Yup. And the Flying Inmans are here to help that learning curve and that learning process!

From notes re: Joanna Brooks' message?: What’s...next controversial issue? She thinks baptism for the dead will continue to circulate...dearth of official statements or commentary contributes to...persistence and circularity of public discussion...

So...even the Mormons are restless about the "dearth of official statements or commentary" from Lds leaders about the macabre practice of baptizing the dead.

Many FREEPERS have voiced a "no harm, no foul" approach to this ritual. To counter that notion, I ask the question:

So what are Mormons teaching the world by baptizing the dead?

Here it is in a nutshell: If Hitler can be baptized as a Mormon, then it doesn't really matter all that much how you live your life. Oh, sure, you might miss out on Mormon godhood -- and your own planet. But if we're just talking about basic Mormon "salvation" accommodations...go ahead...live anyway you choose now...and accept later the Mormon proxy dead-dunking on your behalf.

So if you were a Jewish mortician who got a network of worldwide morticians to circumcize dead people...to make them supposed afterlife Jews...why, they think they are doing a "good thing"...would they not? And who would know? (Therefore, in your book, what harm would they be doing?)

Other Harm:

* Millions of Mormon man-hours -- Genealogy -- is rooted in baptizing dead people. Now, genealogy for "roots-searching" is fine, but when "genealogy as ultra time consuming religious obsession" takes over, wouldn't you say it might be good to consider what the apostle Paul has to say about this?

Or do you all just ignore the New Testament?

...stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths AND ENDLESS GENEALOGIES. THESE PROMOTE CONTROVERSIES RATHER THAN GOD'S WORK—which is by faith." (1 Timothy 1:3-4)

But AVOID FOOLISH CONTROVERSIES AND GENEALOGIES...because these are unprofitable and useless. (Titus 3:9)

(Paul says it's useless, provokes controversy, and is not faith-promoting. So even the controversy ignited by protagonist Mormons is distracting)

* As for the question, "Does this 'hurt' anyone?" yes it does -- in two prominent ways...

(a) It hurts the living because over-focusing on the dead distracts what we can do in relating to & in caring for the living!.

We can all agree that Jesus talked much about serving the living -- the poor, the widow, the orphan, the lost sheep, right?

So what would happen in the world if all religions obsessed with the dead as much as Mormons do? Obviously, we're not going to "end poverty in our lifetime" (Jesus said, "the poor will always be with you")...but since countless LDS leaders have called the Mormon people self-saviors and saviors of the dead, it's not only a distraction from the poor but delusional.

(b) Since countless LDS leaders have called the Mormon people self-saviors and saviors of the dead, it's not only a distraction from the poor but delusional.

We already have a "Savior of the world" -- we don't need millions more trying to bump Jesus out of that limelight:
* And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14)
* They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is THE Savior of the world." (John 4:42)

Last time I looked in the Bible, Christians were supposed to object to idolatry in their culture. And if you don't think that Mormons make baptizers of the dead "saviors" who rival Jesus Christ, you haven't read their leaders' comments on baptism of the dead. For those citations, see: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (The OTHER World Series: Vanity)

If you're a Christian or Jew and you conclude "this doesn't harm anyone," you're catering to idolatry -- substitute "saviors" pretending to act in his name.

Some FREEPERS have sadly forgotten that actions teach...(You don't always have to use your mouth to instruct)

“So...even the Mormons are restless about the “dearth of official statements or commentary” from Lds leaders about the macabre practice of baptizing the dead.”

1 Corinthians 15:29 [King James Version]

15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

“But if we’re just talking about basic Mormon “salvation” accommodations...go ahead...live anyway you choose now...and accept later the Mormon proxy dead-dunking on your behalf. “

James 2:14-26 [King James Version]

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Warm weather is fast approaching. It must really SUCK to be a FAITHFUL Mormon with a TR in the summer.

No more backyard cookouts and barbeques...

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 89

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.

1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

1 A ^aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the ^aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and ^bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with ^apromise, adapted to the capacity of the ^bweak and the weakest of all ^csaints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of ^aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of ^bconspiring men in the last days, I have ^cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

5 That inasmuch as any man ^adrinketh ^bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, ^apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, ^astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the ^abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome ^aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with ^aprudence and ^bthanksgiving.

12 Yea, ^aflesh also of ^bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used ^csparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be ^aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or ^bfamine.

14 All ^agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And ^athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the ^afood of man; as also the ^bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ^ashall receive ^bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall ^afind ^bwisdom and great ^ctreasures of ^dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall ^arun and not be ^bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the ^adestroying angel shall ^bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Support for baptism for the dead can be found in the Bible, as mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:29.

29 Else what shall THEY do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are THEY baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand WE in jeopardy every hour? (KJV version1 Cor. 15:29-30)

Paul goes from talking about "they" (others) who do this practice in v. 29 to "we" in v. 30...

This is even clearer in the NIV: 29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will THOSE do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for US, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? (NIV, 1 Cor. 15:29-30)

You see. Paul switches subjects from talking about OTHERS --not "we" (v. 29) to "us" in v. 30.

Elsewise he would have simply said in v. 29: 29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will WE do who baptize the dead?

But Paul didn't ask that question, did he? [He merely did what he did elsewhere...like Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12: As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.'" (there he quoted an ungodly poet) & "One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” (There he went again, citing yet another ungodly 'prophet')]

That's called simple apologetics.

I mean c'mon...how many times have I cited official Mormon sources who contradict other official Mormon sources? (over & over & over again!)

Traditional theocratic control of LDS history and sources contrasted with...open source world of modern digital media...

Eerily familiar...

Party ownership of the print media
made it easy to manipulate public opinion,
and the film and radio carried the process further.

16. Ministry Of Truth

.......

The Ministry of Truth, Winston's place of work, contained, it was said, three thousand rooms above ground level, and corresponding ramifications below.

The Ministry of Truth concerned itself with Lies. Party ownership of the print media made it easy to manipulate public opinion, and the film and radio carried the process further.

The primary job of the Ministry of Truth was to supply the citizens of Oceania with newspapers, films, textbooks, telescreen programmes, plays, novels - with every conceivable kind of information, instruction, or entertainment, from a statue to a slogan, from a lyric poem to a biological treatise, and from a child's spelling-book to a Newspeak dictionary.

Winston worked in the RECORDS DEPARTMENT (a single branch of the Ministry of Truth) editing and writing for The Times. He dictated into a machine called a speakwrite. Winston would receive articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to alter, or, in Newspeak, rectify. If, for example, the Ministry of Plenty forecast a surplus, and in reality the result was grossly less, Winston's job was to change previous versions so the old version would agree with the new one. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs - to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance.

When his day's work started, Winston pulled the speakwrite towards him, blew the dust from its mouthpiece, and put on his spectacles. He dialed 'back numbers' on the telescreen and called for the appropriate issues of The Times, which slid out of the pneumatic tube after only a few minutes' delay. The messages he had received referred to articles or news-items which for one reason or another it was thought necessary to rectify.

In the walls of the cubicle there were three orifices. To the right of the speakwrite, a small pneumatic tube for written messages; to the left, a larger one for newspapers; and on the side wall, within easy reach of Winston's arm, a large oblong slit protected by a wire grating. This last was for the disposal of waste paper. Similar slits existed in thousands or tens of thousands throughout the building, not only in every room but at short intervals in every corridor. For some reason they were nicknamed memory holes. When one knew that any document was due for destruction, or even when one saw a scrap of waste paper lying about, it was an automatic action to lift the flap of the nearest memory hole and drop it in, whereupon it would be whirled away on a current of warm air to the enormous furnaces which were hidden somewhere in the recesses of the building.

As soon as Winston had dealt with each of the messages, he clipped his speakwritten corrections to the appropriate copy of The Times and pushed them into the pneumatic tube. Then, with a movement which was as nearly as possible unconscious, he crumpled up the original message and any notes that he himself had made, and dropped them into the memory hole to be devoured by the flames.

What happened in the unseen labyrinth to which the tubes led, he did not know in detail, but he did know in general terms. As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead.

In the cubicle next to him the little woman with sandy hair toiled day in day out, simply at tracking down and deleting from the Press the names of people who had been vaporized and were therefore considered never to have existed. And this hall, with its fifty workers or thereabouts, was only one-sub-section, a single cell, as it were, in the huge complexity of the Records Department. Beyond, above, below, were other swarms of workers engaged in an unimaginable multitude of jobs.

There were huge printing-shops and their sub editors, their typography experts, and their elaborately equipped studios for the faking of photographs. There was the tele-programmes section with its engineers, its producers and its teams of actors specially chosen for their skill in imitating voices; clerks whose job was simply to draw up lists of books and periodicals which were due for recall; vast repositories where the corrected documents were stored; and the hidden furnaces where the original copies were destroyed.

And somewhere or other, quite anonymous, there were the directing brains who co-ordinated the whole effort and laid down the lines of policy which made it necessary that this fragment of the past should be preserved, that one falsified, and the other rubbed out of existence.

... the Mormons are restless about the "dearth of official statements or commentary" from ...

Where can we find an 'OFFICIAL MORMON' teaching website??

Official sites are sites supported by LDS officials unless said official sites are considered unofficial by said officials.

At that point such sites are unofficial unless officially referenced for official purposes by officials who can do so officially.

This should not be misconstrued as an indication that official sites can be unofficially recognized as official nor should it be implied that unofficial sites cannot contain official information, but are not officially allowed to be offical despite their official contents due the their unofficialness.

Official sites will be official and recognized as official by officials of the LDS unless there is an official reason to mark them as unofficial either temporally or permanently, which would make the official content officially unofficial.

This is also not to imply that recognized sites, often used on FR by haters and bigots cannot contain official information, it just means that content, despite its official status, is no longer official and should be consider unofficial despite the same information being official on an official site elsewhere.

Even then the officialness my be amended due to the use of the unofficial information which may determine the officialness of anything be it official or unofficial depending on how and where it is used officially or unofficially.

I hope this clear things up for the lurkers out there.

The haters tend to make things complicated and confusing when it is all really quite crystal clear.

--Ejonesie22

I mean c'mon...how many times have I cited official Mormon sources who contradict other official Mormon sources?

Well; just what can you expect; when MORMONism's great leaders and movers and shakers say things like THIS:

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University) http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

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