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Amillennialism vs Premillennialism
Rapture Notes ^ | Gary Vaterlaus

Posted on 06/19/2012 1:55:20 PM PDT by wmfights

In this article, we first examined the tap root that contributed to the rejection of a literal thousand-year kingdom on earth, the dominant view for the first two centuries of the church, in favour of a spiritualized kingdom unlimited in duration (amillennialism). The single factor: the adoption of an allegorical hermeneutic, which replaced the literal or face-value hermeneutic of Jesus and the apostles. Four sub-roots fed this hermeneutical shift. First: the anti-Jewish bias of the early church developed as a result of a church dominated by gentile believers. Second: an overreaction to heresy, which included the condemnation not only of heretical doctrines, but chiliasm as well. Third: the adoption of Platonic and Gnostic teachings on the evil of the material world which led to a rejection of a material, earthly future kingdom. And fourth and finally: the adoption of Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire. The church no longer looked for the coming of Christ to establish His kingdom and rescue believers from persecution, but instead saw the newly-found freedom and prominence of the church as the fulfillment of the promises of a future kingdom.

(Excerpt) Read more at rapturenotes.com ...


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: amillenialism; replacementtheology; supersessionism
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The growth of what came to be called amillennialism was not a result of a careful study of the Scriptures, but rather a reaction to the social, political, and theological tensions of the age. While many of the early church fathers are to be commended for their bold witness for Christ in the midst of the threat of imprisonment and death and for their examples of perseverance and godliness, they were, nevertheless, fallible and capable of error, just as we are. They adopted a theology which they felt best fit the current events, rather than holding to the Scriptures as the only source of authority.
1 posted on 06/19/2012 1:55:25 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights

The idea of the Rapture wasn’t introduced until the 1800’s and was later popularized by Hal Lindsey in the 1970’s.


2 posted on 06/19/2012 2:03:17 PM PDT by MNDude ( Victimhood is the Holy Grail of liberalism)
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To: wmfights

Ping for later rapture


3 posted on 06/19/2012 2:08:28 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ...
Ping

The entire article is at the link. I think the author does a good job explaining the impact that the change from a literal reading to an allegorical reading of Scripture had on eschatological views and why the shift from the dominant Premillenial view to the Amillenial view occurred.

4 posted on 06/19/2012 2:09:10 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ...
Ping

The entire article is at the link. I think the author does a good job explaining the impact that the change from a literal reading to an allegorical reading of Scripture had on eschatological views and why the shift from the dominant Premillenial view to the Amillenial view occurred.

5 posted on 06/19/2012 2:13:49 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: MNDude
The idea of the Rapture wasn’t introduced until the 1800’s and was later popularized by Hal Lindsey in the 1970’s.

I would suggest reading the article at the link. It might be a little long, but it is very helpful in explaining how the rise of the flawed belief in amillenialism occurred.

6 posted on 06/19/2012 2:18:30 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights

Try selling the pre-trib, Hal Lindsay, LEFT BEHIND book series, and the I’m outta here, too bad about you stuff in China, North Korea, Africa, Former Soviet Union, and every other place on earth where Christians are murdered, tortured, starved, roaming around homeless...


7 posted on 06/19/2012 2:22:18 PM PDT by WestwardHo
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Adiaphora
8 posted on 06/19/2012 2:29:23 PM PDT by Heartlander (You are either the doer, or the dude)
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To: MNDude
The idea of the Rapture wasn’t introduced until the 1800’s and was later popularized by Hal Lindsey in the 1970’s. Are you sure about this?

"And we will not have you ignorant brethren, concerning them that are asleep, that you be not sorrowful, even as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again: even so them who have slept through Jesus, will God bring with him. For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment and with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:12-17 Douay-Rheims Bible)

The Greek verb arpagaysometha (from harpadzo), here translated as "shall be taken up," has the sense of seized, caught up, plucked, taken away; and in the Vulgate is the Latin verb rapiemur from which the correct and exactly descriptive English word "rapture" is derived. The Vulgate was translated circa 400 A. D. by Jerome.

That is an answer to your proposal.

9 posted on 06/19/2012 2:55:11 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Grab your socks ...)
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To: wmfights

“Now we must frankly admit that a literal interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies gives us just such a picture of an earthly reign of the Messiah as the premillennialist pictures. That was the kind of a Messianic kingdom that the Jews of the time of Christ were looking for, on the basis of a literal interpretation of the Old Testament.”

The Jews made the mistake of looking for an earthly king and an earthly reign. They were wrong then and believing in an earthly kingdom in the future is just as wrong. Jesus will come again but it will not be to set up shop on earth.


10 posted on 06/19/2012 3:02:10 PM PDT by 1malumprohibitum
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To: WestwardHo
There is a difference between our present tribulations on this earth, which are caused by living in a fallen, evil world of which Satan is "god", and the specific, seven year period of time spoken of in Scripture known as the "Tribulation".

This explains the reason for the Tribulation and the difference between tribulations and the Tribulation:

PRESENT TRIBULATION VS. FUTURE TRIBULATION

11 posted on 06/19/2012 3:03:48 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: wmfights

Thank you for your post.

I’m afraid you won’t make any headway with the amils around here.

We can explain it to them on the way up.

;^)


12 posted on 06/19/2012 3:07:01 PM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: MNDude
So the following was written in the 1800s?

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

13 posted on 06/19/2012 3:07:22 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: 1malumprohibitum
Is the Kingdom of God on earth now or do we still have to wait for it?

We are watching a growing trend of rejecting the idea that Christ is coming back literally, physically (pre-millennial view) to rule over the nations and establish his governmental rule. They have replaced it with the concept of the church is to take over the world and establish the kingdom of God.

There are over 360 references to a Millennium period where the Messiah, Jesus, will be on earth ruling the nations. The book of Revelation speaks of a thousand years as the length of this period. It tells us where and what will take place as this kingdom is established. It is not possible for one to fit the Scriptures into a present kingdom on earth now.

The kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven is mentioned nearly 100 times in the New Testament, the majority in the Gospels [Matthew and Luke], (Acts 1:3,8:12,14:22, 19:8, 20:25, 28:23,31; Rom. 14:17; 1 Cor. 4:20, 1 Cor. 6:9-10,1 Cor. 15:50; Gal. 5:21; Eph. 5:5; Col. 1:13, 4:11; II Thess. 1:5; 2 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 12:10)

snip

Matthew 13 tells us about the mystery form of the Kingdom (Mark 4:11), the Gospel Age - in which the Kingdom of God has invaded Satan’s Kingdom (who is the ruler on earth), rescuing them and bringing them advanced blessings attributed to the millennial reign (Righteousness, peace, forgiveness, and joy, Rom. 14:17). It is the Kingdom without observation, but is discerned spiritually (John 3:3). It is mentioned only twice in John’s gospel by Jesus to Nicodemus John 3:3, 5. In John 3:3 Jesus told Nicodemus, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Jesus further explains in v.6 that one birth is of the flesh (natural) the other is a new birth, (a spiritual birth), which is a necessity. This birth which brings one into the Kingdom (we are to enter the kingdom of God Luke 18:17, 24, 25). It is produced by the seed (the word of God) being scattered on different soil (hearts) and springs to life and grows on the right ground. The seeds that produced the sons of the Kingdom grow together along with the sons of the Evil One until the end of the age - the harvest time. Those of the Kingdom, who have been born into it, will enter into the Kingdom Age with Christ ruling, known as the Millennium; those who do not believe will be rejected. This age has not happened, his literal- physical kingdom has not appeared yet. When we speak of the expansion of God’s kingdom today, it means the spiritual aspect.

In Greek, the word Kingdom is Basileia, which denotes “sovereignty, royal power, and dominion. It further denotes the territory or people over whom a King rules” (From Vine’s Expository Dictionary, p. 344). Thus, “kingdom” is a designation both of power and the form of government as well as, especially in the later writers, the territory and the rule - the Kingship and the Kingdom. Hence, the basic meaning of kingdom involves three things - a ruler, a people who are ruled, and a territory over which they are ruled. (Moody Handbook of Theology p. 352)

We are now servants in His Kingdom, we enter in through Christ by the New Birth, but there is still a literal future Kingdom to come. There is a spiritual aspect to the Kingdom, which is God being the Lord over the believer. This aspect is the invisible spiritual kingdom. Jesus explains in other places that the kingdom will come to earth. Jesus said when He was present on earth, "My kingdom is not of this world," so it has to have a future meaning.

God tells us in His Scripture that there will be a literal, earthly, millennial kingdom where Christ will rule the world from Jerusalem and so there will be a literal, earthly, millennial kingdom where Christ will rule the world from Jerusalem.

14 posted on 06/19/2012 3:19:58 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

hogwash


15 posted on 06/19/2012 3:24:34 PM PDT by WestwardHo
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To: WestwardHo

So you have Scripture that contradicts the Scripture in the article and supports your assertion that 1 Thessalonians 4:12-18 is false?


16 posted on 06/19/2012 3:30:27 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: wmfights
I don't mean to spoil the party, but Murray N. Rothbard has shown that the root of American Progressivism and Big Government is none other than pietist Premillenialism.

World War I as Fulfillment: Power and the Intellectuals

Origins of the Welfare State in America

Interestingly, it was Northern Premillenialism that turned into Progressivism. Southern Premillenialism focused more on individual salvation.

17 posted on 06/19/2012 4:09:38 PM PDT by danielmryan
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To: Mrs.Z
>>We can explain it to them on the way up.<<

I’m afraid they are going to be on there own at that point. It’s going to be a shocker to them also. Can you imagine the feeling after realizing what has just happened? They do need to know that after that it’s death for Christ or hell.

18 posted on 06/19/2012 4:26:31 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: WestwardHo
"And you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth. Revelations 5:10.

"The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations" Revelations 2:26

"to eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. The Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 22:30

From this, am I right, that the Amillennialists do Not believe the Apostles will reign on the earth?

From the second, am I right, that Amillennialists do Not believe they will have authority over the nations on earth?

From the third, that Amilenialists believe that no one judges from Thrones upon the earth and judges purified saints in heaven (contradicting the Lord Jesus Christ)?

19 posted on 06/19/2012 4:28:18 PM PDT by sr4402
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To: danielmryan
Lest anyone thinks that Murray N. Rothbard has any credibility with regard to the Word of God:

"In the Ethics of Liberty, Rothbard explores in terms of self-ownership and contract several contentious issues regarding children's rights. These include women's right to abortion, proscriptions on parents aggressing against children once they are born, and the issue of the state forcing parents to care for children, including those with severe health problems. He also holds children have the right to "run away" from parents and seek new guardians as soon as they are able to choose to do so. He suggested parents have the right to put a child out for adoption or even sell the rights to the child in a voluntary contract, which he feels is more humane than artificial governmental restriction of the number of children available to willing and often superior parents."

"He also discusses how the current juvenile justice system punishes children for making "adult" choices, such as underage drinking or sex, removing children unnecessarily and against their will from parents, often putting them in uncaring and even brutal foster care or juvenile facilities, while at the same time denying to them those legal rights adults enjoy, such as trial by jury, a written transcript of their court proceedings, etc."[66][67]

You haven't spoiled any party. The Word of the living God stands for all eternity while the discredited-in-matters-of-Scripture Murray N. Rothbard is, well, dead, along with, it would seem, some of his ideas.

20 posted on 06/19/2012 4:31:37 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Mrs.Z
We can explain it to them on the way up.

What a great way to think about it!

I thought this article was really interesting because it refutes the mistake that Premillenialism is a recent "fad". Premillenialism was the dominant view in the first couple centuries of Christianity.

Thanks for your input. :-)

21 posted on 06/19/2012 4:36:11 PM PDT by wmfights
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Forgot to add the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard

22 posted on 06/19/2012 4:40:59 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
So Murray N. Rothbard has no credibility as a historian because he was a freethinker? Good God, man, he's not running for political office. As you yourself pointed out, he's dead. Why rev up the "vetting" machine?
23 posted on 06/19/2012 4:43:26 PM PDT by danielmryan
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To: danielmryan
You posited that he somehow discredited Scripture which is impossible for any man to do and I pointed out some leftist beliefs that he held which definitively nukes anything he had to say about the Word of God.

I have no interest in his historian credentials. But I do know that not only did he have no knowledge of Scripture, he had absolutely no credibility in his attempt to discredit it.

24 posted on 06/19/2012 4:52:24 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: danielmryan

I read much of the first link. Murry calls them postmills not premills.

The posters think man is good enough to force them to be even better and thus create a kingdom good enough to hand over to Jesus.


25 posted on 06/19/2012 4:54:14 PM PDT by anathemized (cursed by some, blessed in Jesus)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; 1malumprohibitum
We are watching a growing trend of rejecting the idea that Christ is coming back literally, physically (pre-millennial view) to rule over the nations and establish his governmental rule. They have replaced it with the concept of the church is to take over the world and establish the kingdom of God.

Eventually the churches that buy into this will discover they have made a bargain with the devil and their churches will be replaced with a world govt.

Love your input GN!

26 posted on 06/19/2012 4:54:42 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights
:)!!

And I love the articles that you post!!

27 posted on 06/19/2012 4:57:16 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: CynicalBear; Mrs.Z
Can you imagine the feeling after realizing what has just happened?

Hey, just as long as they are with us. If not they are in for a very tough time.

They do need to know that after that it’s death for Christ or hell.

I follow what happens to our Brothers and Sisters in Christ that are being persecuted now and doubt I have half their faith. I can't imagine how those that have to live through the Tribulation will hold up.

28 posted on 06/19/2012 5:03:50 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
One of the problems with the pre-trib rapture view is that those proponents begin with the proposition that there is a pre-trib rapture, and then bend the Scripture to fit their theory. That is a misuse of Scripture. Man's opinion is wrong. The Scripture is true.

One of the problems with the pre-trib rapture view is that is a modern, Western European/American invention, that only works in Western culture.

Scripture is for all men, in all times.

One of the problems with the pre-trib rapture view is that people focus on the rapture...the easy escape from suffering...Christians all over the world may be put through the meat grinder of suffering, but they expect to be raptured out of the same in America. Look those Christians in the face, and tell them their tribulations do not count.

If your focus is on the rapture over the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, your focus is on the wrong thing.

Scripture is it's own interpreter; it's own dictionary. Take 1 Thessalonians 4:12 to 18 and test it by Scripture. For a start, for every redeemed,regenerated Christian, the Lord Jesus has already come, and we live in His presence. Eph 2: But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him, in the Heavenly places, in Christ Jesus...

To consign these Scriptures to some future, one time, fabulous event robs believers of their blessing,comfort,and encouragement for the Right Now. Instead of focusing the rapture Christian should be sharing the Gospel of salvation with as many as possible.

For God so loved the world, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

29 posted on 06/19/2012 5:11:02 PM PDT by WestwardHo
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
I hope that some take the time to actually read the articles and think it through for themselves. Most of these articles quote Scripture and have footnoted the comments about the history of the times.

I think the first step for a lot of Christians who just haven't studied eschatology very much is to look at for themselves. The catch phrases about Premillenialism being a "recent fad" just aren't true. From what I've read Premillenialism and a literal interpretation of Scripture were "orthodoxy" until the rise of the hierarchical structure and then church-state model. It's not surprising that as the church-state model devolved the growth of Evangelical Premillenial Christians would happen.

The reality is amillenialism and allegorical interpretation are the "new kids on the block".

30 posted on 06/19/2012 5:22:50 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: WestwardHo
One of the problems with denying Scripture is that it effects how one views all of the Bible, including those Scriptures involving salvation.

For example, Jesus Christ tells us that when He makes His literal, physical return to earth at His Second Advent, He brings His bride, also known as the Church, with Him:

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Revelation 19:11-16)

We know that the armies which accompany Christ when He returns to earth and are clothed in white and clean linen refer to the Church from Revelation 19:7-9:

Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

So if the Church is in Heaven at the time that Christ returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom, how did the Church come to be in Heaven?

31 posted on 06/19/2012 5:38:43 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: wmfights
You are exactly right, and, like preterism and replacement theology, amillennialism requires denial of huge portions of Scripture which raises some questions about the spiritual condition of those who engage in the denial.

It is one thing to misunderstand Scripture, and, with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit, search the Bible and come to a clear understanding of what God has told us about various topics, and to be presented with the Scripture, which is inerrant and absolutely true, and deny it outright in favor of a doctrine which has no support in Scripture whatsoever.

Amillenialism and allegorical interpretation originated with men who acted on their own "wisdom", with no authority from God and no validation of their beliefs from Scripture, and those false doctrines have stubbornly hung around, even after fulfilled prophecies down through the centuries have proven beyond any shadow of doubt that ammillenalism and allegorical interpretation are in direct conflict and contradiction with the Word of God.

32 posted on 06/19/2012 5:46:55 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: wmfights

“They adopted a theology which they felt best fit the current events, rather than holding to the Scriptures as the only source of authority.”

Well, I think the pre-trib rapture crowd isn’t much better, since they adopt a theology that fits with their desires, rather than holding to Scriptures as the only source of authority. They get the premillenial/postmillenial question right, but then, out of a desire to not face the possibility of enduring the Tribulation, they search for any phrase they can take out of context to support a pre-trib view.

As far as I’ve been able to determine, the most literal reading of Scripture is a premillenial, post-tribulation one.


33 posted on 06/19/2012 6:01:27 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

So if the Church is in Heaven at the time that Christ returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom, how did the Church come to be in Heaven?

Can’t mean what it can’t mean, can it. Therefore, there’s a problem with understanding the Scripture.
Obviously, The Lord Jesus is not going to look like a sheep at the feast of the Lamb, and the Church will not fit in a white dress. Some things are symbolic and some things are not.
Therefore, search the Scripture and look for the answer there.


34 posted on 06/19/2012 6:24:32 PM PDT by WestwardHo
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To: WestwardHo

To be clear, this is not an essential issue in my mind.

One hopes each of us approaches the Scripture with an open mind/heart. Any bending of it from either view is not good.

The article makes the point that the premill view is not Western/modern only.

The hope and comfort aspect can be seen just the opposite of your opinion. The trials of current Christians are going to be rewarded by Jesus, these are the wrath of man. They may know He may come for them at any time, sparing them the Wrath of God on the earth, and take comfort from it.

I myself look to the imminent rapture, prior to the Wrath of God on the earth, as the soonest possible living meeting with Him. This is the anticipitory hope and comfort the Scriptures discuss.

I get up knowing this could be the day, not saying to myself, seven years from today could be the day.

As far as being now with Jesus as a believer on earth, I take joy from it and shine it as I can. I look for more joy to come.


35 posted on 06/19/2012 6:27:59 PM PDT by anathemized (cursed by some, blessed in Jesus)
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To: wmfights
I hope that some take the time to actually read the articles and think it through for themselves. Most of these articles quote Scripture and have footnoted the comments about the history of the times.

I think the first step for a lot of Christians who just haven't studied eschatology very much is to look at for themselves.

Looking into it for myself is how I moved from "yeah, whatever" to rejecting the dispensational model.

he catch phrases about Premillenialism being a "recent fad" just aren't true.

Dispensationalism is new. Dr. Vlach himself, whom you've quoted extensively in prior threads, admits that. Dispensationalism is not the only flavor of premil-ism.

From what I've read Premillenialism and a literal interpretation of Scripture were "orthodoxy" until the rise of the hierarchical structure and then church-state model.

read more

36 posted on 06/19/2012 7:00:59 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: wmfights
n this article, we first examined the tap root that contributed to the rejection of a literal thousand-year kingdom on earth, the dominant view for the first two centuries of the church, in favour of a spiritualized kingdom unlimited in duration (amillennialism). The single factor: the adoption of an allegoric etc. etc.

Have you ever actually read Augustine's City of God, Book 20?

37 posted on 06/19/2012 7:05:29 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: wmfights; HarleyD; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg
Oh, yeah, I just noticed. Someone's got John Gerstner's Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth, as an e-text, for $5. It might be worth your while to interact with his critique.

"Offer ends June 20, 2012." Get 'em while their hot.

CC to some other saints that might be interested.

38 posted on 06/19/2012 7:14:08 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: wmfights
They have replaced it with the concept of the church is to take over the world and establish the kingdom of God.

Eventually the churches that buy into this will discover they have made a bargain with the devil and their churches will be replaced with a world govt.

Reconstructionists. R. J. Rushdoony. Dominion Theology.

Already thoroughly proven not pragmatic.

39 posted on 06/19/2012 9:23:45 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Grab your socks ... its time to go.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Matthew 13 tells us about the mystery form of the Kingdom (Mark 4:11), the Gospel Age - in which the Kingdom of God has invaded Satan’s Kingdom (who is the ruler on earth), rescuing them and bringing them advanced blessings attributed to the millennial reign (Righteousness, peace, forgiveness, and joy, Rom. 14:17). It is the Kingdom without observation, but is discerned spiritually (John 3:3). It is mentioned only twice in John’s gospel by Jesus to Nicodemus John 3:3, 5. In John 3:3 Jesus told Nicodemus, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

While the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God share many features, there are important issues which differentiate them. They are not the same. Matthew 13 is about the Kingdom of Heaven which was announced by John Baptist to the Jewish nation as being imminent and available right then, through Jesus. Jesus also proclaimed this until John's death.

KOH only appears in Matthew, and it was of this world. Through Herod, the Jews' King, by rejecting John's message, the Jews rejected the rulership of God in the flesh, and the moment of national redemption passed.

Subsequent to John's martyrdom, Jesus focused solely on the KOG -- "My Kingdom is not of this world."

Take a look at Comparison of The Kingdom of Heaven and The Kingdom of The God

40 posted on 06/19/2012 9:46:45 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Grab your socks ... its time to go.)
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To: wmfights
I read the article through and found it informative, concise, and scholarly -- an excellent apologetic supporting a Biblical hermeneutic. The historical summary is a good point of departure for further study, because the fundamental error of Christendom has been of choosing the wrong methods for translation and interpretation, leading to confusion in matters which the Koine Greek made crystal clear to the thoughts of those who employed it as a matter of daily life, and only needed a discipler (didaskalos) trained to explain the articles common to The Faith of The Christ.

I ran across a fine lesson plan giving a brief summary of the shifts in hermeneutics, to which I refer you:

Bible 405: HERMENEUTICS-THE STUDY OF THE INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURES

(A downloadable PDF file from the Chafer Theological Seminary)

"HIGHLIGHTS IN THE HISTORY OF HERMENEUTICS" starts on page 23 -- complements the treatment in this article.

Thanks for your thoughtfulness in providing this poat!

41 posted on 06/19/2012 10:09:44 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Grab your socks ... its time to go.)
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To: wmfights
Ah, two matters -- the first: "Thanks for your thoughtfulness in providing this post!

I have just finally got it through my English-thinking thick head that the early patristics did not need to translate the texts composing the canon of the New Covenant -- they only had to interpret its meaning; which, taking the literal method, they could understand and communicate the thoughts of The God to the minds of men without finding a need to grasp for "deeper meaning."

Ah, so --- ! (the light bulb turns on!)

42 posted on 06/19/2012 10:30:38 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Grab your socks ... its time to go.)
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To: anathemized; wmfights
The hope and comfort aspect can be seen just the opposite of your opinion. The trials of current Christians are going to be rewarded by Jesus, these are the wrath of man. They may know He may come for them at any time, sparing them the Wrath of God on the earth, and take comfort from it.

I agree with you there! The Tribulation is called "The Time of Jacob's Trouble" in Scripture. It is NOT meant for the believers in Christ who are still alive, we are the Bride of Christ. What kind of groom beats the crap out of His bride prior to their wedding feast? No, we will clearly be taken up, "Come up hither!", we will be told and that will start the clock on the seven years of tribulation the world has NEVER seen before. It will REALLY hit the fan in the last half (after 3 1/2 years) and will culminate in the coming of Christ upon the Mount of Olives to destroy the armies arrayed to annihilate Israel. Before they know what hits them, it will be over and the rule and reign of the righteous King for a thousand years will begin.

Not to minimize the truly horrendous persecution going on in the church of Christ from the start even until today, but the Great Tribulation will be Almighty God's wrath upon all those who despise the truth and seek to destroy His chosen people, Israel. Nothing will compare to that! But we will NOT be partakers of this wrath. He has "not appointed us to wrath".

Though I wake up every day wondering if this is the day, I do not let it keep me from doing what I know God wants me to do that day. It is NOT laying around waiting for the Rapture like some of the Thessalonians were doing - quitting their jobs and expecting everyone to feed them while they waited for Christ's return. It is our "blessed hope" because we know that one day we WILL be with Him. I like the saying, "Live every day as if it were your last. One day, you will be right." God bless you!

43 posted on 06/19/2012 11:20:22 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: All
you forgot Obamillenialism -- or the misled Democrat idea that this millenium is the millenium of Obama

Let's puncture that balloon -- O to get 0 electoral votes. That should be our aim, not just to defeat him but to utterly, totally repudiate his socialist policies

44 posted on 06/20/2012 1:00:40 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Boogieman
They get the premillenial/postmillenial question right, but then, out of a desire to not face the possibility of enduring the Tribulation, they search for any phrase they can take out of context to support a pre-trib view.

I try to look at all of scripture with a very open mind...But I have yet to find scripture taken out of context to fit a pre-Millennial, pre-Tribulation view...

As far as I’ve been able to determine, the most literal reading of Scripture is a premillenial, post-tribulation one.

Their may very well be a post-tribulation Resurrection...There's scripture there that indicates such an event...

However, in Revelation while the earth and it's inhabitants are being decimated with the plagues, there's a Wedding taking place...In Heaven...And it's the wedding of the Groom and the Bride, the church...During the Tribulation...


45 posted on 06/20/2012 6:31:26 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: wmfights
The reality is amillenialism and allegorical interpretation are the "new kids on the block"

The story is that the esteemed Catholic Origen invented the allegorical practice of reducing the meaning and understanding of scripture to mere babble...

Nothing means what it says or even says what it says, except for those parts of scripture and parts of sentences that the Catholic religion claims it has the authority to decipher and translate...

Oddly, Origen was kicked out of their religion...

Prior to Origen and the left hand turn of some of the religious of the day to pagan Rome, the scriptures were taken literally as can be seen by the writings of the earliest church fathers and no doubt those who refused to follow the apostates to Rome...

46 posted on 06/20/2012 6:44:12 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: WestwardHo
One of the problems with the pre-trib rapture view is that those proponents begin with the proposition that there is a pre-trib rapture, and then bend the Scripture to fit their theory.

Naw, we just see what fits together and what doesn't...When the bible says that Jesus will come and only believing Christians will see him in one place, and then in another place we are told that when Jesus comes, the entire world will see him, we don't have to bend any scripture to know that those things aren't the same...

Perhaps you are the one bending scripture to make them the same...

Scripture is it's own interpreter; it's own dictionary. Take 1 Thessalonians 4:12 to 18 and test it by Scripture. For a start, for every redeemed,regenerated Christian, the Lord Jesus has already come, and we live in His presence. Eph 2: But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him, in the Heavenly places, in Christ Jesus...

So there's no heaven then, either...We are in heaven right now...

You certainly had to skip tons and tons of scripture to get where you are at...

47 posted on 06/20/2012 6:57:28 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: wmfights

Thanks for the ping!


48 posted on 06/20/2012 7:02:26 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Iscool

“I try to look at all of scripture with a very open mind...But I have yet to find scripture taken out of context to fit a pre-Millennial, pre-Tribulation view...”

It’s routinely taken out of context to attribute verses that talk about the post-tribulation “first resurrection event” as evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture event.

“However, in Revelation while the earth and it’s inhabitants are being decimated with the plagues, there’s a Wedding taking place...In Heaven...And it’s the wedding of the Groom and the Bride, the church...During the Tribulation...”

During the very end of the tribulation, just before the triumphal return of Christ. To think otherwise is to say that those resurrected, dead first and then the living, to join Him miss out on the festivities.


49 posted on 06/20/2012 7:41:15 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: wmfights

Well, then there’s Panmillennialism - it’ll all pan out in the end.


50 posted on 06/20/2012 7:45:14 AM PDT by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
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