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Polygamy opponents were swept aside in Nauvoo turmoil after Joseph Smith’s death
Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | June 5, 2012 | Doug Gibson

Posted on 06/22/2012 5:26:28 AM PDT by Colofornian

(To see Cal Grondahl’s cartoon that goes with this post click here) The months in Nauvoo following the murder of the LDS Church founder Joseph Smith were not surprisingly, filled with turmoil and political intrigue. The recent publication of “The Nauvoo City and High Council Minutes” by Signature Books provides detailed accounts of the Nauvoo Stake’s high council meetings. It’s very interesting reading. The High Council was a political tool, a body used to cast out prominent church members who did not support Brigham Young’s claim of leadership, or the church’s still-secret embrace of polygamy.

The purge of those who did not support Young in the months following Smith’s murder is an important part of LDS Church history. The Machiavellian tactics, while ruthless and arbitrary, ultimately underscored why the Mormons survived the Nauvoo disaster and thrived. They needed a “dictator,” — Young — not afraid to seize control and exercise it.

The Sept. 7, 1844 high council case of Leonard Soby, who publicly opposed polygamy in 1843 and helped publish The Nauvoo Expositor a year later, is a typical example of 1844 post-Martyrdom. Despite his past dissident status, which included an association with the anti-Smiths Nauvoo Expositor newspaper, Soby retained an uneasy status among the Nauvoo LDS religious hierarchy.

However, his support for Sidney Rigdon as church leader, and an altercation between Soby, Rigdon, Young and Orson Hyde on Sept. 3 over ordination authority for Rigdon, led to high council members “surprising” Soby with a motion that he be disfellowshipped. Soby protested vigorously, arguing that he was not a sinner, such as an adulterer or a moonshiner, but simply had honest differences with his high council colleagues.

It didn’t help. Soby may have been a bit naive, or disingenuous. By September 1844, among the Nauvoo High Council, any hesitancy to damn Rigdon as a false prophet trying to usurp authority was a one-way ticket out of the LDS Church. By the end of the night, Soby was effectively disfellowshipped. He followed Rigdon to his church in Pennsylvania, which eventually failed. Soby, 34 when drummed out of the LDS Church, died in 1891 in New Jersey. He remains a footnore in early LDS Church history.

For Young’s majority in the Mormon leadership, there was a far bigger fish to fry than Soby, or even Nauvoo Stake President William Marks, whose support for Rigdon and opposition to polygamy also ended his tenure later in 1844. On Sept. 8, 1844, in a public meeting, Rigdon would be kicked out of the church he had worked with Smith to build, with a litany of LDS Church apostles offering evidence against him.

As Brigham Young mentioned, Rigdon and Soby has been caught by Young and allies ordaining persons as “prophets” and “kings” etc. It was clear that Rigdon, who had already lost popular support in a contest with Young for church leadership, was attempting to take what members he could from Nauvoo with him to set up a rival church.

According to Young ally Orson Hyde, Rigdon, when asked that he surrender his license, threatened to publish “the history of this people since they came to Nauvoo of all their iniquity and midnight abominations.” Rigdon was referring to polygamy, and it was personal to him. His daughter, Nancy Rigdon, when 19, had resisted Joseph Smith’s efforts to make her a plural wife.

The stress of the Nauvoo polygamy battle caused Rigdon further deterioration of a long-taxed body and mind. By late 1844, he was a feeble adversary for Young and his allies. Young, who had long lost patience with Rigdon, chastised Rigdon with contempt. Other apostles provided anti-Rigdon rhetoric similar to what apostle John Taylor, future prophet, offered. He said “… he (Rigdon) is in possession of the same spirit which hurled the devil & those who we{r}e with him from heave(n) down to perdition(.)”

Only Marks offered support for Rigdon. To what must have been a very hostile audience, the Nauvoo Stake president bravely pointed out that over the course of years, allegations against Sidney Rigdon had always been unfounded. Marks also argued in favor of a first presidency-directed church, rather than one — as Young and others argued for — directed by the Quorum of the 12 Apostles.

Marks added, “… I do not know of any other man this day that has the same power to receive revelations as Sidney Rigdon(,) as he has been ordained to be a prophet unto this people, & if he is cut off from the body this day I wish to the man if there is any that has the same power as he (Elder Rigdon).”

Young caustically responded that “Sidney had done as much (as was needed to show his unworthiness) when he arrived from Missouri(;) he had done as much as would sever any man from the priesthood …” Various Young allies also began to charge that the late Joseph Smith had had very little regard for Rigdon, and that his reputation within the church had been overstated. This is not an uncommmon tactic to use, in war, business or religion, when a longtime member of a group is being deposed by a new generation.

As mentioned, the removal of Rigdon and allies such as Soby and Marks were needed if the Mormons were to survive as a religion. Rigdon was an ill man by 1844, both physically and emotionally. He had suffered great physical hardships due to persecution in the 1830s and severe depression and anguish brought on by the introduction of polygamy and attempts by Smith to marry his daughter. Had Rigdon somehow defeated Young as Smith’s successor the LDS Church would have withered away. Rigdon’s efforts to build his own church was a miserable failure, and he spent his later years as an obscure, almost iconic curio who few paid attention to. His eccentricities included long, rambling denunciations mailed to Brigham Young that were ignored or perhaps considered with bemusement by the Utah leader.

In fact, I suspect that support for Rigdon from Marks, Soby and others (several were excommunicated the same day that Rigdon was cast out) had more to do with disgust for polygamy and the knowledge that Young intended to continue the practice.

There’s no way to know if Joseph Smith — had he lived — would have abandoned his polygamy experiment.

Under Young’s leadership, however, it was here to stay, and opposition to “the principle” would not be tolerated.


TOPICS: History; Moral Issues; Other non-Christian; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: inman; josephsmith; lds; mormon; polygamy
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Note: Columnist Doug Gibson is a Mormon.

From the column: The recent publication of “The Nauvoo City and High Council Minutes” by Signature Books provides detailed accounts of the Nauvoo Stake’s high council meetings. It’s very interesting reading. The High Council was a political tool, a body used to cast out prominent church members who did not support Brigham Young’s claim of leadership, or the church’s still-secret embrace of polygamy. The purge of those who did not support Young in the months following Smith’s murder is an important part of LDS Church history. The Machiavellian tactics, while ruthless and arbitrary, ultimately underscored why the Mormons survived the Nauvoo disaster and thrived. They needed a “dictator,” — Young — not afraid to seize control and exercise it.

Mormons...you need to "bone up" on history and understand your spiritual forefathers named your most prominent universities after a man who took almost 60 wives and was a spiritual "dictator."

From the column: According to Young ally Orson Hyde, Rigdon, when asked that he surrender his license, threatened to publish “the history of this people since they came to Nauvoo of all their iniquity and midnight abominations.” Rigdon was referring to polygamy, and it was personal to him. His daughter, Nancy Rigdon, when 19, had resisted Joseph Smith’s efforts to make her a plural wife.

The source cited here was Lds "apostle" Orson Hyde...he wasn't a "bit" player...Hyde offered up his wife to Smith...while remaining married to her...one of 11 such "wives" Smith commandeered while they remained married to their husbands...Hyde was President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875)!!!

From the column: There’s no way to know if Joseph Smith — had he lived — would have abandoned his polygamy experiment. Under Young’s leadership, however, it was here to stay, and opposition to “the principle” would not be tolerated.

1 posted on 06/22/2012 5:26:40 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Gee, how could you omit mentioning the "Mountain Meadows massacre?"

After all, it happened ONLY 155 years ago, thus it must be "relevant" to today's eeeevil, dangerous, threatening Mormons and Mittens, right?

Got Kool Aid???

2 posted on 06/22/2012 6:03:11 AM PDT by Conservative Vermont Vet
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet

Its the only thing he posts about, never a positive christian thread or something in the news.


3 posted on 06/22/2012 6:08:56 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet
(Why don't you write the Mormon columnist who wrote this column a little over two weeks ago??? Perhaps you should tell him you prefer that he censor all history in his columns over a certain range of time...Oh, and don't stop there...perhaps you can contact your local school boards and tell them to refrain from covering any history over a certain length of time...that you, instead, prefer to tell truth by the calendar...anything of a certain newer age is "progressive" and true...anything of a certain older age is outdated and irrelevant...)

Tell us...which multi-cultural educators who hated history influenced you the most in your campus years?

4 posted on 06/22/2012 6:10:02 AM PDT by Colofornian (As fundamentalist Mormons now are, Lds once were; as fundamentalist Mormons now are, Lds may become)
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To: Colofornian
Here's one for you (and all other MORMON-HATERS) to chew on:

Photobucket

From the hadith of Bukhari, volume 5, #234

"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six.

We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me.

She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said,

"Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of NINE YEARS OF AGE."

5 posted on 06/22/2012 6:10:56 AM PDT by Conservative Vermont Vet
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To: Colofornian

John Taylor speaking of Sydney Rigdon

He said “… he (Rigdon) is in possession of the same spirit which hurled the devil & those who we{r}e with him from heave(n) down to perdition(.)”
________________________________________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Think for a mo just who did the hurling...

That means Taylor was admitting that he himself was of another spirit...

The spirit of the one who was hurled...

Joey Smith and later Brigham Young and his cohorts tended to intertain devils and speak highly of them in their pagan rituals..


6 posted on 06/22/2012 6:17:39 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: driftdiver; Conservative Vermont Vet
Its the only thing he posts about, never a positive christian thread or something in the news.

Of course, this thread post from last Wed. alone -- Boycotting Obama’s convention: Some Democrats are refusing to go to the party's convention... -- makes this comment an out-and-out lie.

But you know, there's just some posters 'round here that I don't expect to either apologize or repent of their sins of falsehood. (So don't surprise me now)

As for that thread link I just linked above, it only drew a dozen post responses...I guess that proves that FR posters are more willing to talk about Romney's Mormonism than Democratic office-holders boycotting Obama's convention, eh?

7 posted on 06/22/2012 6:18:40 AM PDT by Colofornian (As fundamentalist Mormons now are, Lds once were; as fundamentalist Mormons now are, Lds may become)
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To: driftdiver
Is this guy one of those militant atheists or something?

Seems like a strange thing to be posting about if he's not. Ok, it's a strange thing to post about regardless.

I mean if he wanted to attack religion he could easily find far more juicier stuff. The catholic church and all the break offs from it, which is everything that calls itself "christian" today has a history of murder, war, and mayhem.

The list to choose from is truly endless. In contrast the OP is rather silly.
8 posted on 06/22/2012 6:49:42 AM PDT by Ocean_Living
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet

If you want to talk about islam, start another thread. This thread is about mormonism in the religion forum.


9 posted on 06/22/2012 7:26:41 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Colofornian

“As for that thread link I just linked above, it only drew a dozen post responses...I guess that proves that FR posters are more willing to talk about Romney’s Mormonism than Democratic office-holders boycotting Obama’s convention, eh?”

MANY threads don’t get more than a dozen responses. I rarely even look at the threads you post because they are so full of hate and usually descend into nothing but bigoted vitriol towards mormons and anyone who dares to disagree with you.


10 posted on 06/22/2012 7:27:45 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

Here’s an idea. Why don’t you start your own thread in the religion forum about what you want.
This thread is about mormonism.


11 posted on 06/22/2012 7:28:49 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Ocean_Living

He claims to be a Christian who was previously a mormon. (as I recall)

I don’t see anything but hate.


12 posted on 06/22/2012 7:38:21 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver; Colofornian
I don’t see anything but hate.

What is hateful about the original post?

I don't find anything but an article written by a Mormon in good standing about an episode in Mormon history published in a newspaper owned by Mormons.

Surely, there is something else.

Please advise.

13 posted on 06/22/2012 7:59:19 AM PDT by Zakeet (We have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt - Joe Biden)
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To: driftdiver; Conservative Vermont Vet

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


14 posted on 06/22/2012 8:06:22 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: driftdiver; Conservative Vermont Vet
Its the only thing he posts about, never a positive christian thread or something in the news.

You guys REALLY get upset when the extended heresies of MORMONism get posted; don't you!

15 posted on 06/22/2012 8:17:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet
Here's one for you (and all other MORMON-HATERS) to chew on:

Here's one for you (and all other MORMONism LOVERS) to chew on:


(I just LOVE slow pitches!!)


“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




16 posted on 06/22/2012 8:19:25 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: driftdiver
MANY threads don’t get more than a dozen responses.

Oh?

Of Colofornian's???

Perhaps if you would NOT 'rarely read' them; you would see just how wrong your claim is.

17 posted on 06/22/2012 8:22:37 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: driftdiver
I rarely even look at the threads you post because they are so full of hate and usually descend into nothing but bigoted vitriol towards mormons and anyone who dares to disagree with you.

Yup!

The EVIDENCE of your statement is OVERWHELMING!!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

18 posted on 06/22/2012 8:24:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: driftdiver
I don’t see anything but hate.

And you admit it now in front of the world!

Cool!

19 posted on 06/22/2012 8:25:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
 



20 posted on 06/22/2012 8:26:35 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
http://i.imgur.com/BcaiZ.png

21 posted on 06/22/2012 8:27:18 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas exercitus gerit ;-{)
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To: Elsie

22 posted on 06/22/2012 8:33:09 AM PDT by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas exercitus gerit ;-{)
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To: driftdiver; Colofornian
MANY threads don’t get more than a dozen responses. I rarely even look at the threads you post because they are so full of hate and usually descend into nothing but bigoted vitriol towards mormons and anyone who dares to disagree with you.

Colofornian,

You've already won the discussion on this topic.

When they've run out or do not have any logical, reasonable, or even factual evidence to counter your argument, they always fall back on the false Hate card.

As history here on FreeRepublic shows, Mormons are particularly prone to this falsehood when facts from their founders, facts using their own historical documents, facts from the Mormon bible, logical comparison against the Christian Bible and logic are applied to their cult.

You're over the target Colofornian, fire for effect!
23 posted on 06/22/2012 9:01:48 AM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency.)
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To: SoConPubbie

I’m not mormon


24 posted on 06/22/2012 9:10:23 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Elsie

Not really


25 posted on 06/22/2012 9:16:09 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Ocean_Living; Colofornian
Is this guy one of those militant atheists or something?

I doubt that you actually believe that Colofornian is an atheist, do you truthfully think that?

Welcome to FR, as oddly familiar as you already seem as a poster and as anti-Catholic while defending Mormonism as your post is, you should know that it is custom to ping the freeper, one is attacking in their post.

26 posted on 06/22/2012 12:24:28 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP now goes for it's Presidential candidates.)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet; driftdiver

Here’s a reading assignment for you, straight from the RM...

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2898271/posts


27 posted on 06/22/2012 1:23:55 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: driftdiver; SoConPubbie
"I’m not mormon"

The only point you contested...duly noted.

28 posted on 06/22/2012 1:27:59 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: SZonian

dream on


29 posted on 06/22/2012 1:41:52 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: SZonian; Religion Moderator

I guess the not making it personal stuff only goes one way.


30 posted on 06/22/2012 1:42:43 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Conservative Vermont Vet

I guess you assume because you can’t multitask no one can?


31 posted on 06/22/2012 1:48:16 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: driftdiver
Forms of "making it personal" include mind reading, attributing motive, accusing another Freeper of telling a lie (because it attributes motive, the intent to deceive) - making the thread "about" individual Freeper(s), following a Freeper from thread to thread and badgering a Freeper over-and-again with the same question.

Which post do you believe is "making it personal?"

32 posted on 06/22/2012 1:49:39 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: jimt; Colofornian
Wow, you got in early with today's THREE MINUTES' HATE !

Haven't read the whole thread, just part of the beginning spew. I'm sure the usual bile-dripping pre-written supportive posts will show up.


Once again:

Colofornian,

You've already won the discussion on this topic.

When they've run out or do not have any logical, reasonable, or even factual evidence to counter your argument, they always fall back on the false Hate card.

As history here on FreeRepublic shows, Mormons are particularly prone to this falsehood when facts from their founders, facts using their own historical documents, facts from the Mormon bible, logical comparison against the Christian Bible and logic are applied to their cult.

You're over the target Colofornian, fire for effect!
34 posted on 06/22/2012 3:09:52 PM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency.)
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To: driftdiver; Religion Moderator

What?

Are you objecting to a link to the RM explaining proper decorum on the RF?


35 posted on 06/22/2012 3:47:33 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: driftdiver

I deal in the present, not fantasy.

If you’ve contested any of the facts with legitimate (”hate” doesn’t count) and factual rebuttals in the aforementioned post(s), I’d appreciate a link.


36 posted on 06/22/2012 3:52:56 PM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: driftdiver
He claims to be a Christian who was previously a mormon. (as I recall)

Once again. You can't get anything even simple straight. Is your motto, "Why bother with relaying anything accurate in my opinions of others?"

37 posted on 06/22/2012 6:44:33 PM PDT by Colofornian (As fundamentalist Mormons now are, Lds once were; as fundamentalist Mormons now are, Lds may become)
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To: SoConPubbie

Is theMormon bible different ?


38 posted on 06/22/2012 6:54:48 PM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; Tennessee Nana; aMorePerfectUnion; ...
Is theMormon bible different ?

Guys, can you provide some comparison for this poster?
39 posted on 06/22/2012 7:46:29 PM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency.)
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To: SoConPubbie; BlueMoose

***Is the Mormon bible different ?***

Depends on what the definition of a “Mormon Bible” is.

Book of Mormon? Pearl of Great Price? Book of Abraham? Book of Commandments?

JS Translation of the Holy scriptures?

Or the KJV that the SLC Mormons use but don’t read.


40 posted on 06/22/2012 8:22:13 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I LIKE ART! Click my name. See my web page.)
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To: SoConPubbie

mormonism says they use the KJV Bible, however the qualifier “as far as its translated correctly”, and Joseph Smith added/changed to it.
In addition if the BofM contradicts the Bible, the fall back is the BofM.

Joseph Smith’s translation of the KJV Bible

Matthew 6:25-27

25. And, again, I say unto you, go ye into the world, and care not for the world: for the world will hate you, and will persecute you, and will turn you out of their synagogues.

26. Nevertheless, ye shall go forth from house to house, teaching the people; and I will go before you.

27. And your heavenly Father will provide for you whatsoever things ye need for food, what ye shall eat; and for raiment, what ye shall wear or put on.”

King James Bible:

Matthew 6:25-27

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?


41 posted on 06/22/2012 8:38:44 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: SoConPubbie
Is the Mormon bible different?

Like almost everything else pertaining to Mormonism, this is a complicated question with a bottom line answer of, "It depends on what you mean by the terms Mormon and Bible."

The Utah Mormons (who commonly call themselves "LDS" and are by far the largest Mormon sect) believe in three bibles that supplement and in many cases supplant the Holy Bible. In descending order of their deemed importance they are: Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon. It would not be unreasonable to add their Temple Ceremony and numerous prophetic utterances to their list of sacred scripture.

The Utah Mormons also claim to use the King James Version of the Holy Bible. The Missouri Mormons (formerly RLDS, who now call themselves the Community of Christ) use the Joseph Smith translation (JST) of the bible. The JST contains hundreds of changes made to scripture by Joseph under the supposed influence of the Holy Spirit -- Smith had no additional scriptural text and was too poorly educated to challenge the interpretation of the original documents made by scholars of his day (not that it would have mattered ... the KJV is almost universally recognized as an excellent translation).

The Utah Mormons are not really able to explain why they reject such a fundamental text as the JST by their self-proclaimed prophet. The Missouri Mormons are not really able to explain why they reject portions of the Pearl of Great Price and Temple Ceremony. Neither sect can adequately explain why they have significantly different versions of Doctrine and Covenants and the Book of Mormon other than assert that the other sect is wrong.

Other Mormon sects have even more "Bibles." For example, the Wisconsin Mormons rely on the Law of the Lord, a document purportedly translated from golden plates by their prophet King James Strang using Urim and Thummum. A copy of this text is available online.

Hope this helps.

42 posted on 06/22/2012 9:00:27 PM PDT by Zakeet (We have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt - Joe Biden)
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To: BlueMoose
I should have pinged you on my previous response since you were the one who asked the original question.

I'm sorry for the oversight.

43 posted on 06/22/2012 9:05:33 PM PDT by Zakeet (We have to go spend money to keep from going bankrupt - Joe Biden)
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To: Zakeet

I really don’t care.


44 posted on 06/22/2012 9:25:30 PM PDT by BlueMoose
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To: driftdiver
I’m not mormon

Ya had ME fooled!

45 posted on 06/23/2012 6:04:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: driftdiver
Not really

Oh?

Then WHY are you so upset when facts about MORMONism are posted on FR?

46 posted on 06/23/2012 6:05:59 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: ansel12
I doubt that you actually believe that Colofornian is an atheist, do you truthfully think that?

All the OTHER slur words were NOT working; so...

47 posted on 06/23/2012 6:07:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: ansel12
Is this guy one of those militant atheists or something?

No, Ma'am!

We are NOT in the military; although we DO follow lots of rules (most of the time).


The Rules

  1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
  2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
  3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
  4. Don't debate or argue.
  5. Center your mind on your mission.
  6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
  7. Cut your hair regularly.
  8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
  9. Be neat and clean.
  10. Bathe frequently.
  11. Use deodorant.
  12. Polish your shoes.
  13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
  14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
  15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
  16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
  17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
  18. Exercise regularly.
  19. Write in your journal regularly.
  20. Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
  21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
  22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
  23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
  24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
  25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
  26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
  27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
  28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
  29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
  30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
  31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
  32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
  33. Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
  34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
  35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
  36. Do not go on road trips.
  37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission
  38. Do not watch television.
  39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
  40. Do not listen to the radio.
  41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
  42. Do not participate in musical groups.
  43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
  44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
  45. Do not engage in contact sports.
  46. Do not engage in water sports.
  47. Do not engage in winter sports.
  48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
  49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
  50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
  51. Do not embark on a private boat.
  52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
  53. Do not handle firearms.
  54. Do not handle explosives.
  55. Do not swim.
  56. Do not play full court basketball.
  57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
  58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
  59. You may play half-court basketball.
  60. Never be alone.
  61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
  62. Be loyal to your companion.
  63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
  64. Pray with your companion every day.
  65. Study with your companion every day.
  66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
  67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
  68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
  69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
  70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
  71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
  72. Do not arise before your companion.
  73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
  74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
  75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
  76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
  77. Do not flirt.
  78. Do not date.
  79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
  80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
  81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
  82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
  83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
  84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
  85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
  86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
  87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
  88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
  89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
  90. Do not telephone parents
  91. Do not telephone relatives.
  92. Do not telephone friends.
  93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
  94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
  95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
  96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
  97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
  98. Obey all mission rules.
  99. Obey the laws of the land.
  100. Do not get involved in politics.
  101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
  102. Do not give any information about the area.
  103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
  104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
  105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
  106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
  107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
  108. Be courteous.
  109. Provide community service.
  110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
  111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
  112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
  113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
  114. Keep your housing unit clean.
  115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
  116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
  117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
  118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
  119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
  120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
  121. Maintain your health.
  122. Eat a healthy diet.
  123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
  124. Follow the approved exercise program.
  125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
  126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
  127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
  128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
  129. Be immunized.
  130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
  131. Budget your money carefully.
  132. Keep a record of what you spend.
  133. Do not spend more than your companion.
  134. Do not loan money.
  135. Do not borrow money.
  136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
  137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
  138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
  139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
  140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
  141. Be a frugal photographer.
  142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
  143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
  144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
  145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
  146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
  147. Do not drive without a license.
  148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
  149. Do not drive members’ cars.
  150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
  151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
  152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
  153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
  154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
  155. Drive defensively.
  156. Wear your seat belt.
  157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
  158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
  159. Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
  160. Know bicycle safety rules.
  161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
  162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
  163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
  164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
  165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
  166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
  167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

48 posted on 06/23/2012 6:09:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: driftdiver
I guess the not making it personal stuff only goes one way.

When you poke a stick at the dog; don't complain when it BITES you.

49 posted on 06/23/2012 6:12:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: jimt; Invincibly Ignorant
Wow, you got in early with today's THREE MINUTES' HATE !

We are NOT hateful!!!

And we do this for a MUCH longer time than 3 minutes a day.

Try 10 HOURS a day; 6 days a week; for about a year.

And; we VOLUNTEERED for this job, too!


50 posted on 06/23/2012 6:15:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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