Following-Truth:5 Facts That Must Be Ignored BeforeAccusing CatholicsOf “Mary Worship”[Cath & Open]

Following the Truth.com ^ | Jun 19th, 2012 | Gary Zimak

[Salvation]

5 Facts That Must Be Ignored Before Accusing Catholics Of “Mary Worship”!

Jun 19th, 2012

by Gary Zimak.

I love the Blessed Mother! There…I said it and I’m glad I did! As a Catholic, I’m so blessed to be a member of the Church that truly honors and respects the Mother of my Lord and Savior. I must admit that, even though I’m a cradle Catholic, I didn’t always feel this way. In fact, for most of my life I didn’t understand Mary’s role or care about her too much. What a mistake! Now, after several recent accusations of “Mary worship” on my Facebook page, it’s time to stand up for my “Mom”. And, even though I love her and want to defend her honor, I have no intention of getting nasty. Rather, I’d prefer to present 5 facts about Mary. Before you accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, I ask you to take a long hard look at these facts. They have a way of poking holes in the theory that we place too much emphasis on Mary. If you still want to accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary, then I suggest you ignore these facts!

1. God Sent The Savior Through Mary – I list this one first because it’s really tough to downplay Mary’s importance while acknowledging that the long awaiting Messiah came to earth by being born of a woman…and that woman was Mary. Out of all the ways that Jesus could have come to earth, why was Mary chosen? If Mary was important to God, shouldn’t she mean something to us?

2. Jesus Performed His First Miracle At Mary’s Request - This is another good one. Oh I know, Jesus didn’t need Mary to turn the water into wine at Cana. She just happened to be there. OK, why then did St. John list Mary FIRST in his list of wedding guests?

On the third day there was a marriage at Cana in Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there; Jesus also was invited to the marriage with His disciples. (John 2:1-2)

If Mary is not important in this saga, why is she listed BEFORE the apostles and BEFORE Jesus? St. John the Evangelist was not known for inserting extraneous details. Mary is listed first because John wants to call the readers’ attention to her presence at the wedding.

But what about “the rebuke”? You know, the argument that Jesus was telling Mary to “butt out” when He stated:

“O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” (John 2:4)

Jesus was a devout Jew and an obedient follower of the Ten Commandments. Why would He publicly dishonor His mother in violation of the Fourth Commandment? Secondly, if this was such a “put down” by Jesus, why did He go ahead and perform the miracle of changing water into wine? Wouldn’t that have been the end of the request. Of course it would, unless He wasn’t putting Mary down. When His mother interceded on behalf of the couple, Our Lord decided that His time had now come. Don’t you think Jesus is trying to tell us something? Isn’t is probable that Jesus waited until Mary’s request, in order to show us her intercessory power? Doesn’t that explain why St. John listed her first among the guests?

3. Jesus Gave Mary To John From The Cross – As He suffered and died on the Cross, Jesus made a very profound statement:

When Jesus saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing near, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home. (John 19:26-27)

Why, while struggling to speak as He hung on the Cross, would Jesus have spoken these words if they didn’t mean anything? Could He have been making small talk? Obviously, there was a reason that Our Lord did what He did. The Church has always believed that John represented each member of the Church and that, from that moment on, Mary became our spiritual mother. Scripture tells us that, on that day John accepted Jesus’ gift and “took her to his own home” (John 19:27). Shouldn’t we do the same?

4. Jesus’ First Graces Were Given Through Mary – This is a fact that frequently gets overlooked by those who wish to downplay Mary’s importance…and it comes straight from the Bible! After accepting God’s offer to become the Mother of the Savior, Mary traveled “in haste” to visit her relative, Elizabeth.

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the child leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:41)

According to this Bible passage, before Jesus was even born, Mary’s voice was used to deliver the graces to Elizabeth. Why? Because she’s not important? Isn’t there some other way, these graces could have been dispensed?

Not convinced? Listen to what Elizabeth had to say (also directly from the Bible)…

“For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the child in my womb leaped for joy.” (Luke 1:44)

It’s pretty hard to deny the importance of Mary’s presence and voice in dispensing these graces to Elizabeth. Did the graces originate from Mary? No, they obviously came from Jesus. However, He chose to have Mary make the journey and use her voice to deliver them. Why? Because He wants us to realize that she is important!

5. Jesus Christ Is The Sole Mediator Between God And Man - Now, this doesn’t make sense. How does this help to support the Catholic position? This is why we Catholics “have it all wrong”, isn’t it? Sorry if I’m bursting anyone’s bubble, but Catholics absolutely believe that Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) clearly states this belief:

Intercession is a prayer of petition which leads us to pray as Jesus did. He is the one intercessor with the Father on behalf of all men, especially sinners. (CCC 2634)

This Catholic teaching is supported by the following Bible passage:

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all. (1 Timothy 2:5-6)

Although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, that doesn’t preclude others (including Mary) from being involved in a subordinate mediation, or intercession. Saint Paul, who made the above statement, is obviously aware of that fact since he several times urges his readers to pray for each other (Romans 1:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:25, 1 Timothy 2:1). The Catechism refers to this type of intercession as being a “participation in the intercession of Christ” (CCC 2635) and is put into practice each time we pray for one another. Asking Mary to intercede for us in no way takes away from Jesus’ role as mediator between God and men.

While I’m not naive enough to think that listing these 5 facts will render me immune from further accusations of “Mary worship”, I do think that they will have an effect if looked at with an open mind. Sacred Scripture does not contain a lot of words about Mary, but what’s there is powerful. Theologians have spent 2,000 years studying her Biblical appearances and will continue to do so. We can learn much by studying Mary’s role as documented in the pages of the Bible. If anyone wants to accuse me of being a “Mary worshiper”, I ask you to first look at these 5 facts. If you still want to point a finger, you’ll need to ignore these factual statements…

because accepting them will seriously undermine your credibility!

[verga]

We are made KINGS, overcomers of the world and greatly preferred by God, and PRIESTS, a Holy Order, washed in His blood (and not of ourselves), with direct access to God’s throne. There is, therefore, no need for any extra mediator between us and Christ. Christ is the sole mediator between us and God. We are the Saints, and we are equal to any Saint in heaven, with all the same rights and privileges.

Okay then explain to me why it was necessary for the 24 elders to deliver prayers to God?

[RaisingCain]

“Okay then explain to me why it was necessary for the 24 elders to deliver prayers to God?”

---

Tell me why it was necessary for John to eat a book, which would be honey in his mouth but bitter in his stomach, which he did eat, literally, within the same vision?

Because it is symbolism, types, part of the vision describing the heavenly court, where the prayers of the saints are continually given importance and power before the throne of God. Incense, in Psalms, is made to symbolize prayer that continually wafts before the Lord. Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Unless you think that my prayers get turned into incense that 24 elders, for whatever reason, must deliver to an omniscient and omnipotent God.

Your casual interpretation is some weak support centuries of Roman dogma, which just a few sentences later is declared invalid upon the cold, clean fact that all believers are made Kings and Priests in His sight, and that our prayers are precious and worthy to be heard by the great God.

Here is Christ’s explanation of prayer to our Father, who gives good gifts to those who ask Him. Quite simple, really:

Luk 11:2-13 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. (3) Give us day by day our daily bread. (4) And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. (5) And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves; (6) For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him? (7) And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. (8) I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth. (9) And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. (10) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (11) If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? (12) Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? (13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Joh 16:23-28 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. (24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. (25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. (26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: (27) For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. (28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Imagine that, Jesus will deliver our prayers to the Father! How novel an idea! I suppose Mary has been wasting her time, hearing and bothering with those millions of daily Catholic prayers to her! Little did she know that our advocate, all along, is Christ Himself!

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Out of all the miracles in my own life I have seen, not one was ever given to me my Mary or some random Saint.

[dartuser]

Name the 24 elders please.

[verga]

Yes or no did the elders act as Mediators delivering prayers to God on behalf of others?

[daniel1212]

You are making a hasty and wrong conclusion. I affirmed Jesus is God, but the issue remains the use careful use of titles. Thus Jesus is called Lord and God. Again, Lord primarily refers to what He is as ruler, and can be applied to mortals and the Messiah after the Jewish expectation, but God denotes His being, and Mary is never termed Mother of God, though again, that may be technically allowed in a sense (as would Mary’s mother being the grandmother of God by extension, and so on).

Likewise, Co-redemptrix can be technically allowed in a sense, but both are unnecessary, and easily infer more as part of the excess extrapolated exaltation of Mary, as overall seen here. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2841954/posts?page=187#187

[verga]

Name the 24 elders please.

What a great example of the logical fallacy of the "red herring." Yes or no did the elders act as Mediators delivering prayers to God on behalf of others?

[verga]

Two questions:1) Is Jesus God, Yes or no?

2)Did Mary give Birth to Him, Yes or no?

Notice I am not in any way asking if Mary is divine Clearly she is not, and there is not a sane rational person that in any way thinks she is. I am not asking if she contributed to His humanity, or his divinity. I am asking if she gave birth to the second person of the Trinity that we all know as Jesus.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Okay then explain to me why it was necessary for the 24 elders to deliver prayers to God?”

verga, I don’t think there is an answer to your question, other than God chose it to be that way in the end times. This doesn’t make them mediators. It may just give emphasis to God treasuring as a sweet aroma, the prayers of His saints - who are later identified as those martyred and already departed from the earth.

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...” I Timothy 2:5

You will have to overcome that clear statement to argue there are other mediators.

Blessings to you.

[Boogieman]

“Saul was using a witch to communicate with a spirit. This is quite different than asking someone to pray to God for you. The point remains that the dead can hear our prayers.”

Your 3rd sentence is directly contradicted by the first two. You admit that the example of Saul and the witch is not an example of prayer. Therefore, the proper conclusion is that it tells us nothing of whether the dead can hear our prayers.

[dartuser]

What a great example of the logical fallacy of the "red herring."

What a great example of avoiding the question.

Logical fallacy? You moan and complain in another post that we non-Catholics incorrectly interpret the scriptures ... and then when I ask a simple question that challenges your interpretation, you turn it around on me to avoid the question.

My simple question is to help you see that your interpretation of the 24 elders is wrong; exegetically, escatologically, Biblically ... the events in Revelation 4 are still future.

... so my question stands

... name the 24 elders. Who are they?

[FormerLib]

I’ve often wondered how you could pray to someone who has died, how could they hear you in Heaven?

That depends on whether or not you believe that these people are alive in Christ or not.

If you believe that Christians who have passed from this world are alive in Christ, then asking them for their prayers is no different from asking any loved one for their prayers.

If you believe that they are dead for all time, as the pagans did, then it makes no sense at all.

[verga]

verga, I don’t think there is an answer to your question, other than God chose it to be that way in the end times. This doesn’t make them mediators. It may just give emphasis to God treasuring as a sweet aroma, the prayers of His saints - who are later identified as those martyred and already departed from the earth.

This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...” I Timothy 2:5 You will have to overcome that clear statement to argue there are other mediators. Blessings to you.For some reason Protestants leave off the rest of the sentence. 1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

When you look at the entire sentce it is not saying that Jesus is the only mediator, it is actually saying that Jesus was the single mediator that died for our sins. There can be otehr mediators, but none of them was able to die for our sins.

If you are corrct then why did Paul ask so many others to pray for him:

1Th 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

2Th 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,

Heb 13:18 Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.

Col 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison--

2Co 1:11 You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many.

Every person that read those words and acted on them were mediators, jsut as when your pastor asks you to pray for the sick of your congregation, yu are a mediator.

[verga]

See my post #112, This is speaking of an ongoing practice, and the identity of the elders is of no consequence, hence me calling it a "red herring."

Now answer my questions: 1) Is Jesus God? 2) Did Mary give birth to him?

We all know that a Protestants refusal to answer these simple questions is because protestants know that this proves that Mary is the Mother of God, and none of you could bear to admit that the Catholic Church is correct about anything.

[dartuser]

the identity of the elders is of no consequence

Not only is the identity of the elders of great consequence, but the timeframe for this scene in heaven is of critical importance. You yourself claim that these are mediators for your prayers ... dont you think you better be sure they are up there listening? Dont you want to know who you are communicating with?

Let me give you a hint: ... The 24 elders whom you are praying to are not there yet, because Revelation 5 has not happened yet!

Now answer my questions: 1) Is Jesus God? 2) Did Mary give birth to him?

We all know Many Catholics think ... that a Protestants refusal to answer these simple questions is because protestants know that this proves that Mary is the Mother of God,

Not really, what we object to is the gross logic that goes like ...

1. Jesus is God
2. Mary gave birth to Him
3. Mary was the mother of God
4. And because she is the mother of God, that implies she was immaculately conceived, lived a sinless life, remained a virgin, assumed bodily into heaven, is now the Queen of Heaven, Co-redemptrix, performs miracles, gives visions, appears to little children, ... and on and on and on ...

Yes, Jesus is God ... and yes, Mary gave birth to him ... and that makes Mary Jesus' mother. Duh ... your mom gave birth to you ... therefore she is your mother.

This is not some kind of mystical revelation that is suppose to reorder my interpretation of the Scriptures. Mary is the mother of Jesus just like your mom is the mother of you. She gave birth to you. I acknowledge that you are not God so yes there is a difference; an angel didn't come to your mom and make a pronouncement to her that she was giving birth to you in 9 months.

Mary was God's obedient servant ... like Moses, like Daniel, like Jeremiah, like John the Baptist, like Peter, like Paul ... they all did what God instructed them to do ... and because of her obedience she still is called blessed.

But all these other things that have been made up about her ... they all go way beyond the text of the Scriptures.

Last chance on the elder question ... my patience is up.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.”

Oh? Nothing in the context indicates that in the least. If that were so, you could also look out your window and see Gods righteous Trumpet judgements falling on the earth.

Nor is there any indication this happens more than one time.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.”

Oh? Nothing in the context indicates that in the least. If that were so, you could also look out your window and see Gods righteous Trumpet judgements falling on the earth.

Nor is there any indication this happens more than one time.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.”

Oh? Nothing in the context indicates that in the least. If that were so, you could also look out your window and see Gods righteous Trumpet judgements falling on the earth.

Nor is there any indication this happens more than one time.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.”

Oh? Nothing in the context indicates that in the least. If that were so, you could also look out your window and see Gods righteous Trumpet judgements falling on the earth.

Nor is there any indication this happens more than one time.

[aruanan]

1. Jesus is God
2. Mary gave birth to Him
3. Mary was the mother of God

"But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
--Elizabeth, cousin of Mary, wife of a Jewish priest.

To whom would a wife of a Jewish priest be referring, especially in the context established by the gospel writer, when she said, "my Lord"?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

[Apologies for my multiple posts. Connection problems]

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today. “

Everything after Revelation 4:1 is prophecy about the future...

4:1 After these things I looked, and there was a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: “Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things.”