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The Holy Shroud: One Big Bang and the body was gone
Vatican Insider ^ | July 3, 2012

Posted on 07/04/2012 2:07:42 PM PDT by NYer


The Holy Shroud

The results of a recent study - completed by Italian scientist, Giuseppe Baldacchini - on the theory of annihilation, are said to prove the authenticity of the Shroud according to the current laws of physics

Marco Tosatti

Rome

Giuseppe Baldacchini is a physician who has worked for Italian research centre ENEA for a number of years. He is also a passionate scholar of that mysterious object which is the Holy Shroud of Turin and in recent days he has published a book about his findings, which readers can access by clicking on the following link. Of particular interest is a fascinating theory he has come up with to try to respond to a series of questions about how the image on the Shroud was formed and how the body which lay wrapped inside the winding sheet could have disappeared. Baldacchini presents two theories: one, that the Shroud is a medieval fake which is useful in worship rituals and/or religious propaganda in the Catholic Church, like many other relics. And two, that it is the genuine article and really did contain Jesus Christ’s body, making it a witness of his Resurrection.

 

“The Shroud is an old linen sheet, measuring 4,40x1, 10 sq m, which contains a number of marks including a front and back image of a body (IC) and organic and inorganic liquid stains. Over the past decades it was discovered that the IC is neither a drawing nor a picture created with known techniques. Indeed, some reddish stains were caused by human blood (Antonacci, 2000), (Wilson, 2010). Naturally we cannot yet exclude a fake so let us suppose that the Shroud is a medieval fake created by a brilliant forger who never existed on Earth and remains unknown today (Baldacchini, 2011). The supposed author/authors must have been familiar with some kind of technology or possessed certain information before these were even invented or published.” Baldacchini lists eleven crucial scientific elements which lead him to the conclusion that the Shroud is not a fake. These are too many to list here so we ask you to refer to the original text.

 

The scholar recalls that “The Shroud contains no traces of putrescent liquids or gases (these marks start to appear about 40 hours after the person’s death, so the body had disappeared from the shroud before then, but not too long before that judging by the blood stains which would have needed some time to form as a result of the liquefaction of the clotted blood, the process of haemolysis),” and that “The body was not removed from the Shroud manually (there are no signs of dragging that correspond with the blood stains).”

 

So how did the body disappear? Baldacchini’s response is this: “The only phenomenon in Physics that can lead to the complete disappearance of mass, producing an equivalent energy is the process known as matter-antimatter annihilation (AMA). Today, this can only be reproduced on a subatomic level in elementary particle laboratories but was a dominant occurrence straight after the Big Bang. That is, in the first instants of our universe’s existence.” The “annihilation theory” also satisfies the criteria of previous theories: “Indeed, only a small portion of the energy from the dead matter is released, while the body is completely annihilated and reappears almost exactly as it was before even outside the Shroud.” Previous theories are based on radiant energy (MEB) and the idea of the body being mechanically transparent (REB). These were completed by the “Consistent historical method” (CHM) theory. Said theories were all conceived in order to explain the body’s disappearance as it was not mechanically removed from the winding sheet. Therefore, Jesus Christ’s body becomes transparent for the Shroud, which satisfies the MTB theory, whilst releasing a limited amount of radiant energy, a requirement of the REB theory, without the problems presented by the HCM theory.”

 

Concluding his study, the physician states that: “The AMA theory tells us nothing, except that the body dematerialised inside the Shroud and instantly materialised again somewhere else, either dead or alive. This makes no difference to the laws of Physics as this way they do not contradict the evangelical texts which describe it as resurrected and therefore alive.” They also tally with the chemical and physical characteristics of the Holy Shroud. “I pushed the boundaries of current scientific knowledge but tried to remain within the laws of physics we are familiar with today, mainly the preservation of energy and the non preservation of some parameters that are essential in the elementary processes which form the basis of our universe’s existence,” the scholar concluded.


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Religion & Science
KEYWORDS: jesushead; shroud; shroudbigbang; shroudofturin; veil; veronica
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1 posted on 07/04/2012 2:07:53 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...
Some additional source information for your review:

The Shroud of Turin: Facts and Fiction

2 posted on 07/04/2012 2:09:27 PM PDT by NYer (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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To: NYer

I prefer to believe.

That is all.


3 posted on 07/04/2012 2:25:58 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: NYer

Does it surprise anyone He who created time and space should have complete mastery of physics?


4 posted on 07/04/2012 2:29:13 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: cripplecreek

In the case of the shroud, belief without basis is not necessary. The thing is basically a photographic negative created at a time prior to photography being invented on the planet...


5 posted on 07/04/2012 2:29:21 PM PDT by varmintman
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To: NYer
The scholar recalls that “The Shroud contains no traces of putrescent liquids or gases (these marks start to appear about 40 hours after the person’s death, so the body had disappeared from the shroud before then[.]

Two errors here. First, Ps.16:10 says that his body did not see decay, so forensic evidence of decay would not exist at any time interval. Second, the first errant assumption leads to a false timeline of forty hours or less. Christ died, descended into hell and rose again on the third day; seventy two hours. Other than that, interesting.
6 posted on 07/04/2012 2:35:37 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (I'm for Churchill in 1940!)
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To: shibumi
“The AMA theory tells us nothing, except that the body dematerialised inside the Shroud and instantly materialised again somewhere else, either dead or alive.”

“Schrodinger wept” ping

7 posted on 07/04/2012 2:44:58 PM PDT by Salamander (I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name.)
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To: Farmer Dean

Things that make you say “Well, duh!”.

;]


8 posted on 07/04/2012 2:46:57 PM PDT by Salamander (I wanna hurt you just to hear you screaming my name.)
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To: WorkingClassFilth

72 hours? If He died at 12 noon on Friday and showed back up at 12 noon on Sunday, he would have been gone 48 hours. Thus “on the third day” rather than “after 3 days”.


9 posted on 07/04/2012 2:48:53 PM PDT by Terry Mross ( To all my kin: Do not attempt to contact me as long as you love obama.)
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To: Farmer Dean; NYer
Does it surprise anyone He who created time and space should have complete mastery of physics?

As Christ Himself said, "With God, all things are possible."

10 posted on 07/04/2012 2:49:26 PM PDT by thecodont
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To: WorkingClassFilth

From a late Friday afternoon or early evening (before sundown and the beginning of the Sabbath - they needed to rush to shroud the body and lay it into the tomb) to early Sunday morning is under 40 hours. The “third day” phrase does not imply a full 72 hour time span.


11 posted on 07/04/2012 2:49:57 PM PDT by katana (Just my opinions)
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To: WorkingClassFilth

The body was in rigor mortis, but not putrefaction....the body of the man in the Shroud. He had, therefore, been dead for more than 24 hours but less than 72 hours. What an interesting...........coincidence. Ahem.


12 posted on 07/04/2012 2:52:09 PM PDT by RightOnline (I am Andrew Breitbart!)
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To: varmintman

Also, it is a 3-D image - something that could not be faked.

To this day no one has ever been able to reproduce a similar relic with all of modern science at their disposal.

To paraphrase a StarTrek line....

“It’s real, Jim”


13 posted on 07/04/2012 2:56:43 PM PDT by newfreep (Breitbart sent me...)
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To: Farmer Dean

I’ve always said the inventor of the laws of physics would know how to work within them.

Even the parting of the Red Sea is physically possible as sometimes a storm will cause a draw back and then crash back together.


14 posted on 07/04/2012 2:57:56 PM PDT by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to the tumbril wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: NYer

Years ago upon reading the Greek used to describe the empty tomb as told in the Bible, I concluded that Jesus simply left the wrappings, without unwrapping them, just as He left the seal tomb without rolling away the stone. My personal theory is that He did this by shifting the temporal location of His body, so that He was immeiately ‘out of phase’ with our planar present. As God He can walked anywhere along the time line, just as He appeared to Moses ont he Mountain, and visited the three boys int he furnace, and wrote on Belshazzar’s wall without bringing His entire body int the palace present. Our current state of sensing is limited by the processing of past events made sense of by the mind of ur soul. We process nothing int he present of the event because it takes time for data to reach us and be recorded for mental ‘assignment’. ... There is a realm of reality no further away than the length of a man’s arm, yet it is completely beyond our sensing as we exist now. But ‘when we see Him, we shall be like Him’


15 posted on 07/04/2012 2:59:03 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: NYer
The shroud is REAL. Definitive evidence of the miracle of His resurrection. NO DOUBT. The evidence is overwhelming. The FALSE statements about the shroud are also overwhelming, which is the intent of those nay sayers. There is a logical explanation for every piece of false evidence. The actual evidence can't be disproved.

Forensic evidence such as spores, molds, seeds, flowers, all from area and time of the crucifixion. Human blood. A negative image made before photography was invented. No paint, or pigments used to make the image, a 3 dimensional image. Carbon dating (as accurate as Obama’s released birth certificate) samples taken from the most contaminated areas of the shroud (corners, edges) and from non original cloth used to make repairs to the shroud.

The period correct type of burial cloth. Not an article of clothing. It is a LONG sheet, laid down lengthwise. The body is placed on the sheet, and then the rest of the sheet is drawn back over top of the body. NOT WRAPPED, like a mummy.

Blood on the shroud at the head, (crown of thorns), at His side (“They will look on the one they have pierced.”), at his wrists and ankles (But he was pierced for our transgressions, ...... and by his wounds we are healed).

And on and on the evidence goes. Off the top of my head, this is the best I could do. It is a fascinating study.

To you skeptics I would say:

Isaiah 53:4-6 New International Version (NIV)

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Accept Jesus as your Savior, today. Ask any Christian how to go about it. Where you will spend your eternal life depends on it.

16 posted on 07/04/2012 3:11:34 PM PDT by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: zot; SeraphimApprentice

Shroud of Turin ping - nothing really new


17 posted on 07/04/2012 3:13:00 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: NYer

The Holy Shroud is very moving and amazing when seen up close. And you can see a backlit, precise replica at the Catheral of the Holy Cross of Jerusalem in Rome. It is not well-known or crowded even though the relics on display are breathtaking. The main columns in the church date to AD 400.

St. Helen traveled to Jerusalem in AD 343 and brought back the relics on display.

A nail from the Holy Cross.

Two thorns from the Crown of Thorns

A piece of wood from the Holy Cross

A piece from the Cross of the Good Thief

Half of the inscribed board from the Holy Cross


18 posted on 07/04/2012 3:15:49 PM PDT by SaxxonWoods (....The days are long, but the years are short.....)
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To: WorkingClassFilth

What error? The scholar confirms Ps 16:10. No evidence of decay found.


19 posted on 07/04/2012 3:21:48 PM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA; Terry Mross; katana; RightOnline

You’re all right - my bad.


20 posted on 07/04/2012 3:29:50 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (I'm for Churchill in 1940!)
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To: DManA
so what about the Veil of Mannopello???

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:YYwVLsKaG2EJ:www.shroud.com/pdfs/jaworski.pdf+Manoppello+veil&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgpOy8FHS4BK2kZRqnW6hdyhFhCwOovEFQyZ_3kejCyTAlGkDLJFSoGNxNxDD6vwY_KBJIS8EzTKq3KyXAJI3g_CHEquep9_sTudo_qsNhlA9e0PLiS3-alQKC4Cno6orQjYgnj&sig=AHIEtbTSa-EYCGOTuxn4HFUc7Im4HzPA9Q



Two of them together

21 posted on 07/04/2012 3:31:11 PM PDT by RummyChick
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To: NYer
“The only phenomenon in Physics that can lead to the complete disappearance of mass, producing an equivalent energy is the process known as matter-antimatter annihilation (AMA).

An entire body annihilated by anti-mater would release enough energy to vaporize all of the middle east.

The “annihilation theory” also satisfies the criteria of previous theories: “Indeed, only a small portion of the energy from the dead matter is released, while the body is completely annihilated and reappears almost exactly as it was before even outside the Shroud.”

Beam me up Scottie. What is he talking about.

22 posted on 07/04/2012 3:33:20 PM PDT by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: NYer

We look for proof while God only desires faith.


23 posted on 07/04/2012 3:33:31 PM PDT by right way right (What's it gonna take?)
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To: NYer

Maybe it was just a miracle.


24 posted on 07/04/2012 3:37:58 PM PDT by Sirius Lee (Goode over evil. Voting for mitt or obie is like throwing your country away.)
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To: NYer

The glorified body of the risen Christ passed through the fabric of the shroud that first Easter Morning the exact same way it passed through the walls of the room where the disciples were hiding out when He entered the room without entering through the door.

Luke chapter 24 and John chapter 20 KJV.


25 posted on 07/04/2012 4:10:43 PM PDT by Tucker39 ( Psa 68:19Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits; even the God of our salvation.KJV)
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To: right way right

Just another idol for the RCC cult to worship.


26 posted on 07/04/2012 4:17:23 PM PDT by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: right way right

Amen.


27 posted on 07/04/2012 4:20:27 PM PDT by Rumplemeyer (The GOP should stand its ground - and fix Bayonets)
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To: SVTCobra03

We don’t worship relics we venerate them. Go do some serious reading on the RCC.


28 posted on 07/04/2012 4:59:44 PM PDT by Steelfish (ui)
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To: GreyFriar

Thanks for the ping. Dematerialized in the tomb, leaving the marks on the Shroud; rematerialized in the Upper Room and elsewhere.


29 posted on 07/04/2012 5:32:47 PM PDT by zot
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To: NYer; Alamo-Girl; albee; AnalogReigns; AnAmericanMother; Angelas; AniGrrl; annalex; annyokie; ...

Shroud of Turin PING!

If you want on or off the Shroud of Turin ping list, Freepmail me.


30 posted on 07/04/2012 7:16:28 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue...)
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To: RummyChick
so what about the Veil of Mannopello???

The Mannopello Veronica has been proven to be a painting. It's attributed to Raphael and was written about and described in contemporaneous letters by Raphael in letters to Dürer in which both artists talked about the technique of creating self portraits on Byssus or Cambric cloth. The Mannoppello Veronica is a dead ringer for Raphael at age 26-30, the time he was experimenting with this technique, 100 years before the veil was donated by "a soldier who claimed to have stolen 'Veronica's Veil' from the Vatican"... Except the Vatican still has Veronica's Veil on display and has no reports of any theft or attempted theft!.

31 posted on 07/04/2012 7:33:36 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue...)
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To: NYer

I do not need the shroud to believe but it is nice to have it available for non believers. OIF vet


32 posted on 07/04/2012 7:52:58 PM PDT by jesseam (eliev)
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To: NYer

I believe the Shroud was left here by Christ for those who would need it; just as Thomas needed to actually see the nail holes in His hands.

I don’t need the Shroud to believe, but I’m grateful He left it and I find it comforting to know it is there for us.


33 posted on 07/04/2012 8:24:00 PM PDT by Melian ("Where will wants not, a way opens.")
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To: Swordmaker

Thanks for the ping!


34 posted on 07/04/2012 9:02:29 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Pontiac
Beam me up Scottie. What is he talking about.

He's talking about theory; a wild guess...

He talks about the Annihilation Guess also satisfies the criteria of previous guesses:

35 posted on 07/05/2012 6:08:44 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: cripplecreek
As do I.

The image on the Shroud is almost photographic in nature. That indicates an instantaneous phenomenon. The body's image was captured on the Shroud the microsecond before it left this mortal coil. All subsequent appearances of Christ were not of this Earth. Or of this dimension, I speculate.

Man can only hope to comprehend what took place that morning. In no way can we hope to know by what process it was done.

36 posted on 07/05/2012 6:10:56 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (My dog, yes. My wife, maybe. My gun....NEVER!)
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To: Tucker39
The glorified body of the risen Christ passed through the fabric of the shroud that first Easter Morning the exact same way it passed through the walls of the room where the disciples were hiding out when He entered the room without entering through the door.

So ya figure then that he came out forward, went back in and then backed out in the other direction???

37 posted on 07/05/2012 6:12:14 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: SVTCobra03
Just another idol for the RCC cult to worship.

They got every thing don't they??? Next they'll be tellin' us the got the Throne that Jesus sits on in heaven...Poor Jesus has been standing there for a long time...Guess that's what their pope sits on...

38 posted on 07/05/2012 6:15:31 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Steelfish
We don’t worship relics we venerate them. Go do some serious reading on the RCC.

Same difference...A rose by any other name is still a rose...

39 posted on 07/05/2012 6:18:49 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: zot
Thanks for the ping. Dematerialized in the tomb, leaving the marks on the Shroud; rematerialized in the Upper Room and elsewhere.

And Satan is a Romulan...

40 posted on 07/05/2012 6:20:13 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Iscool
Jesus himself told you in John 6 that we have something much greater than a mere throne ... we have Jesus himself, body, blood, soul, and divinity, in every Catholic church in the world.

He waits for you there.

Would you rather spend your Sundays hearing a rock concert punctuated by a man ranting about a Bible he doesn't understand, or would you rather have an encounter with the True and Living God who tabernacles among men to this day?

Your choice ... rock concert, or Jesus? A mess of red pottage, or the inheritance of the sons and daughters.

Choose wisely.

41 posted on 07/05/2012 7:25:01 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Swordmaker
"It's attributed to Raphael and was written about and described in contemporaneous letters by Raphael in letters to Dürer in which both artists talked about the technique of creating self portraits on Byssus or Cambric cloth. "

Where are the references to those letters???????

Guilo Romano inherited Durer's painting. It was sent in the tradition of communicational portraits. In return , Raphael sent drawings out of his workshop...with one historian claiming the drawings were really those of Romano.

None of the transparent paintings done by Durer that exist today look like the cloth used in the Veil.

Vasari said Durer's portrait was on exceedingly fine linen.

Among the many problems with Roberto Falcinelli is that he thinks Marcantonio is Durer - it isn't and Guilo Romano is Raphael - it isn.t Vasari said the man to the right of Marcantonio Raimondi (who Durer sued) is not Raphael - it's Guilo Romano.



42 posted on 07/05/2012 7:45:59 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: RummyChick

RummyChick, I have seen the translations of the letters. But the point in reference to the Mannopello veil is moot as under a microscopic examination, pigments are easily seen. It is a painting. That proves it is NOT a miraculous image of Christ. There is a large amount of white pigment in the eyes and teeth areas... and other pigments, of types used in medieval paintings, in the image areas. Although you can superimpose IMAGES of the Shroud and the Mannopello veil over one another, they have to be resized to make them fit. One to one images DO NOT fit. The faces are not the same, although, a Catholic nun claims they are. Enough said.


43 posted on 07/05/2012 8:25:11 AM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue...)
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To: Campion
Jesus himself told you in John 6 that we have something much greater than a mere throne ... we have Jesus himself, body, blood, soul, and divinity, in every Catholic church in the world.

No you don't and most Catholic agree with that sentiment...You have a cracker...

Would you rather spend your Sundays hearing a rock concert punctuated by a man ranting about a Bible he doesn't understand, or would you rather have an encounter with the True and Living God who tabernacles among men to this day?

A Christian has the 'real presence inside of himself, while he also is in the risen Savior...24/7...

There's no need to 'go somewhere' to locate Jesus...

Eating that cracker will have no more, no less an effect on your body or soul than eating a New York bagel...And again, most in your religion know that...Why try to convince me when most Catholics don't believe you...

44 posted on 07/05/2012 8:40:16 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Swordmaker

“But the point in reference to the Mannopello veil is moot as under a microscopic examination, pigments are easily seen. It is a painting. That proves it is NOT a miraculous image of Christ. “

No it doesn’t. What it proves is that pigment has been applied sometime over the hundreds of years of existence as scholars have pointed out- it is quite possible that it has been retouched. The pigments are only in certain areas. the whole thing is not pigments.

It is quite possible that the Church commissioned the work. There is also another possibility.

As for the size - we are talking about a miracle. If it is a true miracle (of which I have no opinion ) I wouldn’t expect it to match up to size.

But it matches enough with the Shroud that you can’t possibly explain how Raphael would have been able to match it so closely. Either they both are faked by the same person or people who were in on it.. or someone copied the shroud. How could they do it in the 1500s????

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/jaworski.pdf

You say you have seen translated letters. Who has written about them? Surely in this day and age -with so many people writing about Raphael and Durer ..someone would have written about them.

7 months ago you told me you were CERTAIN that Raphael had sent a transparent painting to Durer. Yet, there is NOTHING that I can find to back this up. He sent some drawings- that some think were the work of Romano.

I really don’t have an opinion as to the Veil. Even if Raphael was experimenting on the method - the method doesn’t look like the Veil as seen by Durer’s work still in existence. It stands to reason that Raphael might experiment with the technique. And even if Raphael tried his hand on it - I HIGHLY doubt he sent it to Durer as you claimed.

This was very expensive cloth. The only thing anyone knows of him sending to Durer doesn’t include a transparent painting on very very expensive cloth

Maybe Guilo Romano did a self portrait. He had the original Durer. Romano , if that is him depicted in the Expulsion fresco as Varsari claims - looks like the man depicted in the Veil.

But what is really fascinating is reading the way you have twisted the information.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1693902/posts

Back then, you claimed the Vasari wrote that Raphael sent back a transparent painting. He wrote no such thing.

This conclusion:

“Raphael, using the same technique and same Byssus cloth, painted his OWN portrait and sent it to Dürer.”

IS YOURS...not the language of Vasari who is really the only person to go to for information on this.

I can find NOTHING where Varsari claims that Raphael sent a transparent painting to Durer.

I think you are using conjecture - which does not prove that the Veil is fake- nor does the fact that pigments were found in the eyes.

It may be a fake. But one that is not proven.

I am still waiting on someone to explain why the lock of hair is not the same on both sides.


45 posted on 07/05/2012 1:23:52 PM PDT by RummyChick
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To: RummyChick
7 months ago you told me you were CERTAIN that Raphael had sent a transparent painting to Durer. Yet, there is NOTHING that I can find to back this up. He sent some drawings- that some think were the work of Romano.

RummyChick, I think you do have an opinion on the Mannopello veil. I spent almost two weeks researching that "relic" several years ago and I am not going to revisit that research to find those letters which were published in a book in the 1930's and the letters were between Dürer and Raphael, no others, discussing painting on diaphanous cloths including Cambric and Byssus AND the fact they were exchanging self portraits done with that technique.

As for the size - we are talking about a miracle. If it is a true miracle (of which I have no opinion ) I wouldn’t expect it to match up to size.

But it matches enough with the Shroud that you can’t possibly explain how Raphael would have been able to match it so closely. Either they both are faked by the same person or people who were in on it.. or someone copied the shroud. How could they do it in the 1500s????

They DON'T match. That's the point. The image on the Shroud has a full mustache and a full forked beard, the Mannopello Veronica has a trace of a mustache and a wispy beard. If we accept the legend of the Veronica, the two images would have been created within three days of each other, ergo, no time to grow more facial hair. As to the differing sizes, I follow logic and science. Once you invoke miracles and claim that can explain away every variance and difference that disproves your thesis, we can not have a rational discussion. You could claim the pink fairies did it by osmosis with a miracle, and stand on that base, regardless of any fact I could produce, and nothing could disprove it!

I am interested in the Shroud of Turin and the well founded science and scholarship surrounding it, not the poor speculation that has been put forward about something that DOES have proof that it is a work of a known artist.. . and respected scientists have looked at photomicrographs taken of it and found obvious pigments in all areas of the image, regardless of your claims that it has been "retouched."

46 posted on 07/05/2012 4:53:03 PM PDT by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft insult free zone... but if the insults to Mac users continue...)
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To: Iscool

Not sure what you’re getting at, but it sure sounds disrespectful to Christ. So I’ll just let your sage remark stand as it flowed from your heart.


47 posted on 07/05/2012 5:08:16 PM PDT by Tucker39 ( Psa 68:19Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits; even the God of our salvation.KJV)
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To: Swordmaker

“RummyChick, I think you do have an opinion on the Mannopello veil. I spent almost two weeks researching that “relic” several years ago and I am not going to revisit that research to find those letters which were published in a book in the 1930’s and the letters were between Dürer and Raphael, no others, discussing painting on diaphanous cloths including Cambric and Byssus AND the fact they were exchanging self portraits done with that technique. “

You are wrong about me having an opinion. I am not a very religious person. I am just looking at FACTS to determine possibilities.

You know what comes back when you do a google search about these letters that you claim exist?

YOUR POSTS. There is NOTHING that I can find that backs up this claim. In your post in 2006 you claim

“Raphael, using the same technique and same Byssus cloth, painted his OWN portrait and sent it to Dürer.”

And you use this paragraph to bolster your statement:

“By these and other works the fame of Raphael spread to France and Flanders. Albert Dürer, a remarkable German painter and author of some fine copper engravings, paid him the tribute of his homage and sent him his own portrait, painted in water-colours, on byssus, so fine that it was transparent, without the use of white paint, the white material forming the lights of the picture This appeared marvellous to Raphael, who sent back many drawings of his own which were greatly valued by Albert...”
Giorgio Vasari

He sent drawings. They have notations on them by Durer. NO WHERE..I MEAN NO WHERE ..do I see any claim by Vasari that Raphael sent a transaparent painting to Durer.

I don’t believe it happened. Given what I have read, he would not have sent something like that to Durer. It would have been a very expensive painting to do. He sent Durer drawings from his stock.

I am dubious of your claims because you can’t back them up. When you flat out stated that Raphael sent the Mannopello piece to Durer you quoted from Vasari- WHO SAID NOTHING TO BACK YOU UP.

You cite Roberto Falcinelli work - but he doesn’t even realize that the person in the Expulsion fresco is not Durer- it’s his supposed “enemy” Marcantonio - according to Vasari. It is also NOT Raphael in that painting - according to Vasari.

Falcinelli’s working theory is that it is the veil is Durer’s painting. He then goes on to say that he wonders if Vasari got it wrong. But there is not ANY PROOF that Raphael sent a TRANSPARENT painting to Durer.

The only proof is something you claim you have seen..that no one else talks about.

Not sure what your agenda is..but this I know...Vasari did not say ANYTHING that would indicate that Raphael had made such a painting.

As I have repeatedly said, the Veil could very well be some kind of painting. It does NOT resemble any of Durer’s transparent paintings that are in existance today.

And I still see NO mention of these letters you claim you have seen. I find it VERY ODD that no historian brings them up and no historian other than someone in 1930 claims that Raphael sent a transparent painting to Durer.

I want to see a reference to those letters somewhere other than you.

And I can’t find it.

They may exist. It just seems odd that something of this historical consequence is buried because you are the only one that remembers the 1930’s book.

And NO ONE can explain why the hair lock on the forehead is different on the back from the front. This is impossible on a transparent painting of this nature.


48 posted on 07/05/2012 6:01:51 PM PDT by RummyChick
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To: RummyChick

One more thing..I see repeated references to Raphael being impressed with the work of Durer and wanting to try it for himself.

EXCEPT..the references are talking about Durer’s engraving and Raphael had his buddy Marcantonio set about honing the craft of ENGRAVING.


49 posted on 07/05/2012 6:20:11 PM PDT by RummyChick
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To: cripplecreek

Who was it who said, “I believe, so that I may know”?


50 posted on 07/05/2012 6:34:20 PM PDT by aruanan
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