Posted on 09/09/2012 3:08:47 PM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
A recent sermon by Pastor David Jeremiah has been weighing heavily upon my mind.
He recounted the true-life story of contemporaries William Franklin Graham and Charles Templeton, up and coming young evangelists who began their ministries during the 1940s.
Most thought Templeton, rather than Graham, would achieve greater things in the name of the Lord.
But, in fact, the former fell away from his Christian faith – actually declaring himself atheist – while the great Billy Graham remained a good and faithful servant of the Most High.
Pastor Jeremiah shared the story of Graham and Templeton to remind his congregation (as well as those of us watching on TV or listening on radio) that, as Christ followers, “we are expected to run with endurance the race that has been set before us.”
Yet, in his next breath, the pastor said that, while Templeton did not finish the race he started, he still has a place in God’s kingdom.
Because, said Pastor Jeremiah, it mattered not that Templeton renounced the Christian faith he espoused as a young evangelist, nor that he went to his grave an atheist, since he one time gave his life to the Lord, he’s secure for all eternity.
That is the doctrine preached in many, if not most Christian churches, with which I have the most difficulty:
Once saved, always saved.
No matter how it is preached, or by whom it is preached – including Pastor Jeremiah, whom I greatly admire – I am unable to accept it.
For why would the Apostle Paul encourage us to run with endurance the race set before us if simply answering an altar call one Sunday gives us a lifetime Get Out Of Hell Free card?
And speaking of the Apostle Paul, suppose his life story was reversed. Suppose he spent the first part of his adult life preaching Christ’s salvation, but the second part persecuting Christians.
Would he be today in Paradise?
I think not.
“For it is impossible,” the Scripture warns, “for those who were once enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
The takeaway from that Scripture is that it is not enough to give our lives to Christ for a season, then fall away from our faith. We do not have a free pass to sin as it pleases us. We are expected to abide in Christ, as He abides in us; to live our lives according to his Word.
So those of us who believe ourselves saved should not be deceived. The Scripture warns, “Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Those who abide in such sins will spend eternity separated from their Creator. Even if they were one-time Christ followers, like Charles Templeton.
Furthermore, in my most humble opinion the translation of "everlasting" would make more sense than "eternal."
This is where this argument gets so construed and misdirected because some people do not grasp the concept of GRACE. Sin has nothing to do with being "SAVED." Trying to be sin free is not the condition, believing in CHRIST is the qualifier to be saved. Being "Born Again" is the stated act one must go through to see the kingdom of heaven.
Those who think they can nilly willy continue in sin after they are saved without any consequences are only fooling themselves. There will be a reckoning, but it will be different than being separated from God.
Why do adults insist on twisting and complicating the plan of God through fear, when it's so simple children can understand it?
That is nowhere is scripture.
Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13
Once Saved Always Saved is not Scriptural.
D-fendr - "No man can pluck us; but we ourselves can choose to leave Him."to which sigzero replies : "That is nowhere is scripture."
Yes, it IS in Scripture and very clearly stated in Scripture.
Even when playing the usual "prooftext" games you have to ignore or distort a lot of Scripture to pretend that the Bible teaches the doctrine of OSAS.There's no way around the clear statement here :
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then: The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
Romans 11:20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off. But thou standest by faith: be not highminded, but fear.
Romans 11:21 For if God hath not spared the natural branches, fear lest perhaps he also spare not thee.
Romans 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee,
the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. You can't be cut off unless you were first a part of the whole. That clearly shows that you can first be joined to the vine by ernestly professing Christ and beginning to follow Him then later be cut off because you didn't "abide in goodness". Likewise, inTitus 1:16 They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him; being abominable, and incredulous, and to every good work reprobate.
we see that a profession of faith in Christ doesn't amount to a hill of beans if the works of the individual who makes that profession of faith deny Him. Works that deny Him, then, are obviously what determines whether or not you "abide in goodness" which in turn determines whether or not you're cut off after you were fist grafted in.
Don’t forget the parable in Luke 15. A choice was very clearly made there.
It's hard to believe people can ignore that parable and buy into the whole OSAS heresy in the first place.I've heard a good many fundamentalist sermons preached on Luke 15 that never took any note of the fact that the son was with the father to begin with. They all focused on son coming home followed by an alter call and promise that by coming forward and accepting Christ you'll be assured of your salvation no matter how often you leave the Father and wallow with the hogs.
Being able to return isn't the same thing as not being able to leave but a lot of folks refuse to admit that because then they'd have to change the way the live their lives. The Catholic teaching that you have to remain in a state of Grace makes all of this very clear and is very clearly all supported in Scripture.
Sola Scriptura ~ let the scriptures interpret the scriptures. If you spend your whole life pouring over them you will still not uncover all the breadth and depth of the Holy Words meanings and nuances. However, I must agree with crosshairs and pastor Jack... One can not lose the gift they did not earn in the first place.
Salvation, I too used to interpret scriptures very straight and narrow, but the more my puny mind wrestles with all of God’s Word the more I sense how limited and narrowly I’m describing/sharing God and His Word with others. Each day I open the doors a little wider and bask more and more in the light of His Love.
See Romans 8 - well the whole chapter is very very instructive but I esp. lean on The last 9 verses describing the utter strength of His Love and how we can not break it.
SO, YES, I DO THINK WE MUST RESPOND TO HIS FREE GIFT OF FAITH and therefore should never lose it...
But how weak we are and how often we waiver?...
Is God to accept us on what may be just one instance of doing the right thing [thief on the cross]?
Or only a lifetime of continuous stepping and striving towards perfection?
~ only God knows our true intentions of the heart, how easily we are misled... and only God gets to decide the redeeming value of our good deeds. Just remember the Bible clearly differentiates saving faith [not earned] and good deeds [life’s rewards ~ hopefully stored up and waiting for each of us in Heaven].
Romans 8 - see especially verses 31-39...
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be . 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore , brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live . 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry , Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together . 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth , why doth he yet hope for ? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought : but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called : and whom he called , them he also justified : and whom he justified , them he also glorified . 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth . 34 Who is he that condemneth ? It is Christ that died , yea rather , that is risen again , who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written , For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded , that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present , nor things to come , 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Taking His Name in Vain ~ first I understood this in the Catholic viewpoint only, then iirc John MacArthur challenged in a sermon that we should probably not ever take the name Christ - ala being called christian - in our own sinful vanity or boasting pride-filled carnality - so for too long I was a 'harbor christian' harboring a few of my own habitual sins for far too long - decades.
A< gulp >men.
"...so for too long I was a 'harbor christian' harboring a few of my own habitual sins for far too long - decades."
I read that line and just looked at the floor.
And he bowed himself, and said, What is thy servant, that thou shouldest look upon such a dead dog as I am?
Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee
(2 samuel 9:8)(Luke 5:8)(Hebrews 13:5)
Grace and peace to you FRiend...and me...and all of us.God bless
Abiding in WHO'S goodness? Your own, or God's? That passage clearly is talking about GOD'S goodness - or God's kindness, mercy, love, benevolence and grace. Romans 11 is talking about the people of Israel and how through their UNBELIEF they were cut off from the olive root and the Gentiles were grafted in. We are grafted into that root the same way the Jewish people were - by belief, faith. God cut off the rejecting Jews as useless branches because it is his right. By that same right, God grafts in "wild" branches (the Gentiles) and He also can graft BACK in the Jews through faith. Paul continues in Romans 11:23-24
And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Rather than Paul contradicting his own revealed Gospel of Grace by saying here that we must "abide in (our) goodness" or, in other words, do good works to get saved or stay saved, he is reminding the Gentile believers to not be lifted up in pride over the Jewish nation because they were wild branches grafted into the root and the natural branches can and WILL be grafted back in. This IS a problem with "prooftexting" that fails to take into account the whole of Scripture as well as the plain meaning of words.
You can't be cut off unless you were first a part of the whole. That clearly shows that you can first be joined to the vine by ernestly professing Christ and beginning to follow Him then later be cut off because you didn't "abide in goodness". Likewise, in Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him; being abominable, and incredulous, and to every good work reprobate. we see that a profession of faith in Christ doesn't amount to a hill of beans if the works of the individual who makes that profession of faith deny Him. Works that deny Him, then, are obviously what determines whether or not you "abide in goodness" which in turn determines whether or not you're cut off after you were fist grafted in.
The verse in Titus 1 is treated the same way. Looking at the passage as a whole, we see Paul is speaking of those who may profess to be Christians but their lifestyle does not demonstrate that there has been a new birth. The passage:
For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth. To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. (Titus 1:10-16)
This, in no way, contradicts that we are saved by faith without our works. A genuine child of God would have fruit in their life that goes along with that new spirit nature. That is what this thread is about. A man, who claimed to be a Christian and who was a "minister" for twenty years and who has left his faith behind. It does not change the fact that we ARE saved by God's grace through no merit of our own and we come to God by faith - without which it is impossible to please Him. Abiding in God's grace and goodness is what it means to be a Christian. The indwelling Holy Spirit is who strengthens us to live holy lives that glorify God. Those who reject the grace of God and who try to live in holiness of their own strength, will at some point fall away - the burden becomes too great and their hypocrisy eventually overwhelms them. Like I said, I do not know Templeton's heart - none of us does. Whether of not he EVER had a genuine conversion to Jesus Christ and was born again, only God knows. But this I DO know, if he EVER was born again, he will NOT fall forever. Just as the father of the prodigal searched the horizon for his lost son and welcomed him back with joy and forgiveness, our Heavenly Father is a thousand times MORE benevolent. He never stops drawing his children back to him. Some are more stubborn than others, but He will not LOSE even one. There is something about that amazing grace of God that overwhelms us and it is that grace that enables and creates the desire within us to please him and live for him. This is a far better motivation than fear and dread - we love Him because HE first loved us.
Templeton, as his own story makes plain (p. 3), never truly reached a point where he was intellectually convicted of the truthfulness of Christianity (what the reformers called assensus). Assensus represents the conviction we have in our minds. Assent of the mind is vital to our faith. Graham, according to this testimony, had enough assensus to make a decision. He was not going to be an eternal “tire-kicker” with regard to Christianity. Sure, he could have waited, like Templeton, until every possible objection to the faith was answered, but this would amount to a failure of modernistic irrationality. We can never have all our questions answered. At some point there must be a sufficiency in probability.
There is a time when we, like Billy Graham, must stop the type of questioning that comes prior to faith, and make a decision. This does not mean we stop using our minds, as Templeton unfortunately assumed. In Christianity, we call this fides quaenes intellectum, “faith seeking understanding.” We believe in order to understand. We have faith and seek understanding.
May God give us all the ability to be like Billy Graham and make a decision to trust God and the Bible. May he help us to believe what we believe with an invincible innocence. Though doubts may still exist, they do not mean that our faith is not real.
Amen.
As Scripture clearly teaches you have no goodness but can allow the goodness of God to work through you by accepting His Grace and not restraining it by your sinful actions.
Paul doesn't contradict himself and anyone who thinks he does doesn't understand a great deal of what Paul teaches.
It's nice that you know what Paul didn't which is that someone who is saved cannot ever fall and die while fallen.
Thanks for your post. I see much of it rehashing the same problem for adherents of OSAS:
The distinction is made between really saved and not really saved - the only difference being the latter did not persevere to the end. Otherwise they are identical. This means neither can know until the end. So, regardless of the talk of assurance, the current believer cannot be sure.
This provides adherents with *less* assurance in contrast the Church and the Scriptural view which does give assurance to the sincere repentant believer and follower of Christ that he is, in fact, currently saved. And, if he preservers to the end, he will be saved at death.
This is the teaching of the Church from Christ through His apostles, with solid foundation in Holy Scripture, until this day.
The doctrine of “once saved, always saved” was not invented until John Calvin some 1500 years after Christ established his Church. There are good reasons it was not invented until then and why it is still false today.
First, it requires all the rest of heretical Calvinism - double predestination, irresistible grace and so on - to hold it up, shaky as it is. One must create a web of false doctrine to support it.
Secondly, there’s just too much Sacred Scripture that refutes it including but not limited to:
1 Cor. 10:12
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matt. 24:
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Hebrews 12:
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
Every time this subject comes up the proponents of OSAS have to try and avoid an abundence of clear Scripture, usually by trying to pretend it relates to anything but what the author was clearly talking about. Then again, when I first started to study Catholic teaching and reading Protestant apologetics it was obvious that seven eighths of what passes for Protestant apologetics boils down to repeating “that's what Scripture says but that's not what it means”.
Regards
That's backwards justification.
Technically Christ's one-time sacrifice was so effective that, technically, all of us have been "saved" as in our debts are paid by Christ's blood. We have to accept this saving.
If we fall and repent and fall and repent, that is human nature. We should not, but we may. In that case we do not get saved again and again, we are all "saved" i.e. debts paid. What Christ asks us to do is to persevere to the end with this acceptance of our salvation
Templeton may have accepted God's grace at his death-bed we do not know
No one says that -- good works by themselves without the grace of God and Christ's one-time sacrifice amount to nothing. We cannot start to pay back the debt on our own.
remember what Jesus said
as I said above -- our debts are already paid with no "work" done on our side.
We accept this payment by God or we don't, it's our choice. We can freely reject it, and accept it later -- God is a loving God. We are to endure to the end, but many may not be able to persevere, however it is at the end that we still get that chance to accept.
well, he died before Christ’s sacrifice. More than that we can’t say. God is merciful — THAT we know, but more than that we don’t know.
Baptist bashing? No, there are Arminian Baptists and Calvinist Baptists. This is a debate between the Calvinist view and the non-Calvinist view. A debate — I haven’t seen rancor yet :)
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