Posted on 11/21/2012 2:34:48 PM PST by Lera
Not a word was heard from the Vatican all the years Sderot babies were in mortal danger. They began noticing the violence last week.
Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, President of the Vatican Council for Culture, commenting on the war between Israel and Hamas, delivered a severe attack on the Jewish people: “I think of the ‘massacre of the innocents’. Children are dying in Gaza, their mothers’ shouts is a perennial cry, a universal cry”.
The Catholic Church high official equated Israel’s operation in Gaza against terror groups with the New Testament story of Herod’s slaughter of Jewish babies in his effort to kill Jesus.
(Excerpt) Read more at israelnationalnews.com ...
“Whatever religion you profess I am glad that I am not a member of it because I am a Christian and my God is a loving God.”
What we were discussing is whether the Cardinal said what he apparently said that you do not wish to acknowledge.
Now that it is multiply sourced, you take the false “It’s for the children” high-road after having been caught misleading in debate.
When will your Clintonian deception end?
We aren’t talking about the worth of souls, we are talking about whether the Cardinal appears to value the souls of Gaza’s children over Israel’s. That appears to be the case based on his statements. THAT should disturb you, but that you choose to ignore the error of the Cardinal who is of your faith, and excuse his unequal treatment of God’s children shows that both you and the Cardinal do not really understand the faith to which you both belong.
You top it off by denigrating the faith of someone who seeks only honest debate.
Good job.
If you read the entire article you will notice that there is more than one person making comments
And neither can you have it both ways. Neither the Vatican nor the Cardinal said Israel were "Baby-Killers". The continued claim that the reference to the Killing of the Innocent, which by the way is completely Scriptural (Matthew 2:13-23), is analogous to accusing Israel of atrocities is as bogus as the claims that none of the responses to that false claim are anti-Catholic in nature.
No one has denied that the Cardinal made a reference to the Slaughter of the Innocents by Herod or that the loss felt by those mothers is not any different than that felt by mothers in the Gaza over the loss of their children. What is being discussed is the acceptance that those remarks accuse Israel of being "Baby-Killers". Thre slight of hand being attempted when the anti-Catholicism in play became embarrassingly obvious was the deflection to an argument over whether the Cardinal actually made the comment that was misrepresented. Any presumption that the Cardinal, the Church or any Catholic for that matter, holds Israel's children less dear than those in the Gaza is specious.
As for denigrating the faith of anyone I only look for evidence of Fruit of the Holy to determine if there is faith. Where it is absent so too is the Holy Spirit and faith. I see precious little in your posts and the posts of the anti-Catholics.
“No one has denied that the Cardinal made a reference to the Slaughter of the Innocents by Herod”
Incorrect. it was vigorously denied on this very thread.
” What is being discussed is the acceptance that those remarks accuse Israel of being “Baby-Killers”.”
Since the good Cardinal saw fit to only mention Children of Gaza, and mentioned the “slaughter of the innocents” which was baby-killing, your feigned indignation at the very slight extrapolation that Israel is slaughtering innocent Gaza children cannot be taken seriously.
If the good Cardinal had merely cast a wider net in his statements and seen fit to include Israeli children in the family of those with mortal souls, this debate would not even be occurring.
” I only look for evidence of Fruit of the Holy to determine if there is faith. Where it is absent so too is the Holy Spirit and faith. I see precious little in your posts”
I am looking for honest treatment of the subject at hand. I see precious little honesty in your posts, which serves only to amplify the error of the Cardinal.
I hope the Vatican does the right thing and corrects the good Cardinal’s errant thinking, lest the uninformed think that it represents actual Catholic doctrine, which it most decidedly is not. I also sincerely hope that when that happens that you find it in your heart to recognize the error of reflexively defending the good Cardinal when he used such poor judgement.
Almost a decade later, Saddam is gone, Iraq is an Islamic republic and hundreds of thousands of Christians have been either killed or forced to flee that miserable hell-hole and all at the cost of thousands of American lives. A once vibrant Christian community has been persecuted and decimated.
And who's responsible for this catastrophe? No, not the Vatican. We are. America!
The Pope was right and if we'd listened to him instead of howling at him like the clueless neo-cons that most of us are, there would still be Christians in Iraq and thousands of Americans would still be alive.
So you can take the garbage you've posted on this thread along with the worthless article at the top of it and flush it. You'll be hearing from me presently when I post Ravasi's discourse at the presentation of the Pope's book and the world can see what was really said.
Criticism must be based upon truth or it is not criticism. Comments based upon a lie or in support of lies are slander. Calling one to task for slanderous statements is not revenge, but the first act of justice.
Peace be upon you.
The death of innocent children means nothing to some people as long as it fits with their idea of an angry blood thirsty God
Is it not Thanksgiving where you live? In America it is a national holiday marked by family get togethers around large feasts. Some of us have been busy with such things so please do not interpret a lapse in response time to be a sign of desertion or surrender. I'm still interested in talking about this.
I wouldn't be so sure of that if I were you. The liberal media, in case you aren't aware, is on the side of the "Palestinians" against Israel. Read the articles posted lately on some of them over the latest "dust-up". You won't find much sympathy for Israel there.
Forgive them and pray for them.
It states:
Apparently, there was more to the Cardinal's interview than what was formally posted in his speech for the Pope's new book.
*yawn*
Wow.
So you're saying what . . . that the "old testament G-d" isn't the chrstian "gxd" after all? You're admitting this? You're basically parroting an old chrstian falsehood about HaShem in order to show that the "old testament" is full of mistaken conceptions about G-d because it was written by ignoramuses who were groping in the dark and who got lots of stuff wrong? Perhaps this is why you reject Genesis as well?
Are you perhaps an advocate of Marcionism?
You know something . . . while I am admittedly about as anti-Catholic is it's possible to be, sometimes one of you will say something that even I can't believe anyone would have the chutzpah to say. And your remark about the "bloodthirsty" Jewish G-d (the True G-d) really knocks me for a loop.
One day one of you is going to find himself twisting himself into a knot to justify something embarrassing some bureaucrat at the Vatican has said or done and he's really going to cross the line. I mean it.
Perhaps you need to calm down and do a little thinking. Otherwise (the way you are apparently heading) you're going to be headed into outright blasphemy.
There was no mention of a Jewish or Christian God, only a reference to a completely blood thirsty un-Christian god that does not value the innocent.
That is in contrast to the Christian God, who because He is love, commands to love one another, not just those who look, sound, and act like us. If you do not love the children of the Gaza as dearly as you love yourself you stand in opposition to his commandments.
Peace be with you
I am not the one trying to "have it both ways". If you look back to the start of this thread, it was made pretty clear from the beginning that the Cardinal didn't say the exact words, "Israel is a Baby-Killer". In fact, the thread quotes the Cardinal as saying, "Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, President of the Vatican Council for Culture, commenting on the war between Israel and Hamas, delivered a severe attack on the Jewish people: “I think of the ‘massacre of the innocents’. Children are dying in Gaza, their mothers’ shouts is a perennial cry, a universal cry”.". No one has said he used the words "baby-killers" and your lawyer-like attempts at cornering won't work. Now that additional sources have been found and translated, it appears that the Cardinal's words may have been outside of his "officially translated" comments on the Pope's new book. The OP doesn't say that his words came from the speech, but that he said them while there to introduce the book and he was "commenting on the war between Israel and Hamas".
Why is it that whenever anything is posted that is critical of the Catholic Church, it is automatically called "anti-Catholic"? If you read this thread, you will find many Catholics also give their views and do not like how Israel has been treated recently or historically by the Roman Catholic Church. Are they "anti-Catholics", too?
If you check my entire posting history you will see that I only assert anti-Catholicism in response to lies and falsehoods.
You have been getting a lot of grief over the title of the thread, even though it was the author's interpretation of the words he says the Cardinal as well as other Christian leaders have said about the situation in Gaza. I wonder if someone else had posted a thread like this - say our FRiend Cronos - and it was concerning a Church of England or Presbyterian bishop (as he is wont to do) saying something equally outrageous and unfair as this. Would there be the same outcry for "proof"? Would there be complaints about someone putting words in the leader's mouth? How about protests to the RM to take the thread down because it was a vicious smear tactic? I kinda doubt it. In fact, I think many of those complaining now, would be joining in the disagreement with any other Christian leader voicing such hateful rhetoric against Israel. There wouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction to condemn first and research later - it would be accepted at face value as long as it wasn't "their" church.
I know I would be just as angry and disapproving of the statements no matter who said them as I think you would, as well. But what seems to be happening here is the total intolerance to anything that remotely causes criticism of Rome. Some of our friends would rather pillory the one who posts threads that are negative about Catholicism, than address the subject the thread brings up. I don't think that is being honest. I hope you had a joyful Thanksgiving.
The difference is that I actually check before posting. Unlike certain others who don’t....
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