The Vatican on Gaza: Israel is a Baby-Killer”

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162368#.UK1RQ4arqSo ^ | 11/21/2012 | Giulio Meotti

[Lera]

In his remarks the Cardinal mentioned a cycle of violence in the middle east dating back thousands of years and cited Herrod's killing of the innocent among several examples. and no response from Lera

No response from Lera eh ? Try looking at post number 7 in this thread .I posted a response as soon as I posted thread , right before I went into the kitchen to start baking for Thanksgiving . Oh a Happy Thanksgiving to you too


Herod's killing of the innocents
King Herod the puppet king of Judea put into power by Rome. King Herod the Edomite king of Judea .
King Herod the Arab that ordered the execution of all Jewish babies under the age of 2 in Bethlehem .
Yeah I'd say the Jewish people have a long history of demon possessed Arabs trying to kill them alright .
And yet these Arabs shoot off rocket after rocket into Israeli cities and people sit silent until Israel has had enough and starts targeting the people who are shooting those rockets and what do they say - they call it a vicious circle .... There is no vicious circle , there is only an Arab everlasting hatred . Crazy Muslim Arabs trying to murder Israelis every single day . The violence will end the day they stop trying to kill Israelis because they think their god is bigger than God.

There is no excuse to make any excuse for these savages .

[RFEngineer]

what about this source?

http://www.asca.it/news-Papa__card_Ravasi__grido__strage_innocenti__risuona_in_vittime_Gaza-1220501-POL.html

Is this a complete fabrication too?

“Please distance yourself from that.”

I’m trying to figure out who to believe on this thread.

It shouldn’t be so hard.

[BlueDragon]

I’m trying to figure out who to believe on this thread.

It shouldn’t be so hard.

The article was a hit piece. Don't believe it. Distortions for the most part (when not outright fabrication from the thinnest of element) carefully blended to inflict maximum damage on everyone except Hamas, for it sold the idea that the pali's are the new Jesus (nothing further from the truth in that alone, eh?) and that Christian are accusing Jews of killing this "new" baby Jesus.

As far as sick and twisted memes go, that one is real doozy...

[marshmallow]

What's for Thanksgiving dinner? I've been cooking crow and your portion has been getting cold. What kept you?

Still standing by this piece of garbage? Still want to portray it as a factual account of Cardinal Ravasi's words?

Yes?

Good.....in a few days, when the official English transcript of this article becomes available, you'll receive a personal invitation to cut and paste the exact words from Ravasi's speech which support the headline ..."Vatican on Gaza: Israel is a Baby-Killer". I look forward to it. We all do.

Until then.

[Natural Law]

"what about this source?"

Assuming you are literate in Italian, point out where in that link the Vatican or the Cardinal called Israel "Baby-Killers".

"I’m trying to figure out who to believe on this thread."

Seek and believe the truth. Protestantism leads some to imprint everything they read, news or Scripture, with what they want it to mean. Try reading what was actually said in the context it was said and what has actually been done.

Peace be with you.

[RFEngineer]

“Seek and believe the truth. Protestantism leads some to imprint everything they read, news or Scripture, with what they want it to mean. Try reading what was actually said in the context it was said and what has actually been done.”

I see. We aren’t concerned with what the Cardinal actually said, and whether it deserves harsh judgement, we only focus on, it’s really Protestantism to blame.

You are capable of running the article through translation and you will find that it states that the Cardinal did indeed say something worthy of condemnation.

Did he say: “I think of the ‘massacre of the innocents’. Children are dying in Gaza, their mothers’ shouts is a perennial cry, a universal cry”

If it’s true - and from multiple independent sources it appears as if it is - then the Cardinal, whether he meant to or not, used a “baby killing” historical reference to refer to deaths of Gaza children. You say it’s beyond the pale to do that, and that it’s Protestants fault.

Nice and honest.

[RFEngineer]

“The article was a hit piece. Don’t believe it. Distortions for the most part (when not outright fabrication from the thinnest of element) carefully blended to inflict maximum damage on everyone except Hamas”

But was this one:
http://www.asca.it/news-Papa__card_Ravasi__grido__strage_innocenti__risuona_in_vittime_Gaza-1220501-POL.html

This one simply provides the information, isn’t “hitting” anyone.

The Cardinal used a ‘baby killing” Biblical reference directly in defense of Gaza children.

The article may have been a hit piece but it wasn’t as far out of line as you say.

In fact, nobody wants to even admit the Cardinal said a thing about anything.

The Cardinal’s words should be condemned. You’re not going to do it. That much is obvious.

[Lera]

Here why don’t you watch what the people you are trying to protect are keeping silent about when they speak nothing when Israel gets bombed and yet when Israel tries to take these rocket launching savages out they all of a sudden start speaking up

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/23509/Default.aspx

Watch the video and see how Hamas kills their own people
It’s narrated by a CHRISTIAN ARAB

Watch it and think about how YOUR CHURCH SAYS NOTHING UNTIL ISRAEL STARTS TO TAKE THESE MUSLIM MURDERERS OUT

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR PROTECTING THIS

[boatbums]

won't be holding my breath waiting for you to personally caution everyone on this thread attacking the Cardinal and the Church to not engage in knee jerk reactions. Behind every double standard lies an unconfessed single standard.

Perhaps you missed the first paragraph of my post. I said:

"I would certainly HOPE that a Roman Catholic cardinal would not publicly make such an outrageous statement - especially not someone in charge of "culture". I also did some searching online and found the article at both Jihad Watch and the one linked in the OP, but nothing on the guy's complete speech. Perhaps it is the author's own interpretation of words the Cardinal spoke or perhaps the Cardinal has said those words in the past or words to that effect. I doubt he said them at the introduction to the last book of the series written by the Pope on the boyhood of Jesus. Such an incendiary phrase would be totally out of place for the venue. The article did, however, bring in additional statements and actions of other religious leaders (the 100 named in the OP) that would lead readers to think Israel is being unfairly slammed especially in this latest round of playing chicken with Hamas."

Maybe the reason why you did not notice that this was a "caution" against jumping to conclusions is because of your own double standards?

[boatbums]

The Pope and the Church have been condemning violence in the middle east on almost a daily basis for many years now, but one would actually have to be listening to hear it.

Maybe the issue is that the Vatican seems to not be able to judge which side is truly at fault in this on-going conflict and they try too hard to be diplomatic. Such an attitude seems rather naive seeing as both sides are NOT equal. Israel tries to broker peace, the Islamists only want to annihilate Israel. At least Obama, for the time being, defends Israel.

[boatbums]

I am not "anti-Catholic".

I'm reminded of an article you recommended to me on another thread. I still remember the first line: "In order to be a good Protestant, you must be a good anti-Catholic."

I repeat that I am not anti-Catholic. Take it or leave it. I am disappointed that this is the only thing you remember from that link. Here is that sentence in context:

In order to be a good Protestant, you must be a good anti-Catholic. I am not Catholic. I am Protestant. There are many doctrines of the Roman Catholic church that I am against, but there are many things that I appreciate about them. Both Protestants and Roman Catholics have our lineage in the catholic church. Yes, I just said that. I am catholic, but not Roman Catholic. I’ve got some info for you: If you are a Christian, you are catholic too. This differentiation between catholic and Roman Catholic is part of a solid Protestant polemic against Roman Catholicism. It normally drives Roman Catholic apologists crazy, since it undermines their belief that they are the one true church. But it is true; Protestants are catholic Christians, but not Roman Catholic Christians. The word “catholic” was used very early to describe the church. It simply meant “universal,” describing the church’s universality. The church is not exclusive to Gentiles, Jews, Greeks, Romans, those in the East, or those in the West. The church that Christ built is universal, or “catholic.” (http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2011/06/the-rise-of-rome-in-a-nutshell/#comment-53232)

Maybe a start of that, "let's everybody get along" meme should be we should be honest and accept constructive criticism when it is given and to know the difference. I hope you had a blessed Thanksgiving. I feel as stuffed as a turkey right now. :o)

[boatbums]

Thanks for taking the time to hunt this down. I agree that the text of the speech does not say anywhere near what the author of the article says it does:

Cardinal Gianfranco Ravasi, President of the Vatican Council for Culture, commenting on the war between Israel and Hamas, delivered a severe attack on the Jewish people: “I think of the ‘massacre of the innocents’. Children are dying in Gaza, their mothers’ shouts is a perennial cry, a universal cry”.

The Catholic Church high official equated Israel’s operation in Gaza against terror groups with the New Testament story of Herod’s slaughter of Jewish babies in his effort to kill Jesus.

Perhaps he is talking of another time when words like this were said, but, I agree, it wasn't from the speech in the intro to the Pope's new book. The Cardinal was not the only subject of the OP, though, so we don't know if the author had these in mind when he made his accusations. Thanks again.

[stfassisi]

Lera's posts are kind of like that

It shows the spirit that leads some people is not in the Spirit of anything of Christ

[boatbums]

yup, “I think of the ‘massacre of the innocents’. Children are dying in Gaza, their mothers’ shouts is a perennial cry, a universal cry”. -- think of it, who started this fighting now? who hides behind babies? who tells people to stay even when Israel drop leaflets telling people to move out of buildlings? whose missiles fall short and drop on Palestinians? hamas -- Hamas is perptrating the massacre of the innocents -- both Jewish and Palestinian children.

LOL! You can't have it both ways, Cronos. You can't berate Lera for posting this thread by saying: "Lera's posts all show the slant of the lamestream media the Cardinal didn't say what his article title purports it to be saying.", and then play off the quote you say was not made! Make up your mind!

[stfassisi]

This thread has been proved completely bogus, and yet FR allows it to continue.

FR has lost all credibility and is guilty of the Sin of Scandal. Shame on FR!

[Natural Law]

"The Cardinal used a ‘baby killing” Biblical reference directly in defense of Gaza children."

If the Church cannot speak on behalf of the victims of violence irrespective of the sins of their fathers then they will have no credibility when they condemn abortion. If you do not recognize the children of Gaza as innocent children of God then I feel deeply sorry for you. Whatever religion you profess I am glad that I am not a member of it because I am a Christian and my God is a loving God.

Peace be with you.

[Celtic Cross]

http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/rise.pdf

Some interesting history of the period. Worth a read, IMHO.

[boatbums]

Thank you! This is the way the article's subject should be discussed. Not the pillorying of someone who dared put it on the forum board. Some people, sadly, will take every chance they get to exact revenge on those who they believe bring criticism of their church. It doesn't seem to matter whether or not it is true.

[Celtic Cross]

These liars?

Don't you mean, 'this liar?' I mean, this is just one cardinal.

[boatbums]

I’ve answered the poster concerning that link. Stop making the thread ABOUT me or others here.