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Why are some denominations/churches changing their bylaws on gay marriage (Or drinking, smoking...
12/10/2012 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 12/10/2012 9:27:44 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist

...gambling, rock music, etc, etc?

Now, this thread isn't about debating what is sin and what isn't or what constitutes sin or doesn't. Please don't hijack this thread over the issues that I listed. Thank you.

This thread is about our changing culture - and let's face it, more and more denominations/churches are ever so slowly moving towards tolerance and/or acceptance of homosexual marriage. The rest in the list (following gay marriage) that I included in the thread were put there to show that if you look back far enough at various denomination's church bylaws some churches were once against this or that - but no longer are. Just like they once were adamantly against homosexuality/homosexual marriage, but are slowly drifting away from that.

Which makes me wonder and posit the following question:

Those (the various ministers who were the crafters of church bylaws and voted on them) believed that they were following God's will in the crafting of their church/denomination bylaws. And they believed that they had it right (or scripturally correct) be it in the early 1800's, early 1850's, late 1800's, early 1900's mid 1900's, etc.

So, if a church/denomination "took a stand" against drinking and smoking or gambling, etc, etc in the 1800's in its bylaws but now has since changed the bylaws on these, did those back in the 1800's really hear from God when they crafted those bylaws? If not, then how can those today who change the church bylaws on these things be certain that they aren't making a mistake by changing the church/denomination's bylaws as they are just as fallible as those who lived back then?

Which leads to churches and the slow change in many denominations taking place over gay marriage....

Where are we as a society headed? What bylaw(s) is/are absolutely correct and never need to be changed?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; General Discusssion; History; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: homosexualagenda; moralabsolutes; prolife; religiousleft; sin; trends; vanity
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1 posted on 12/10/2012 9:27:49 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Churches that change with the times aren't Churches at all.

For example, seeing as Jesus drank wine, I doubt Churches that banned alchohol when prohibition was a popular thing were hearing from God.

2 posted on 12/10/2012 9:32:52 AM PST by Wyrd bi ful ard (Gone Galt, 11/07/12)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

No wonder Christianity is in decline in the West.


3 posted on 12/10/2012 9:34:20 AM PST by expat2
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To: All

What say you?


4 posted on 12/10/2012 9:36:36 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Drinking, gambling, rock music, etc. are not defined in the Bible as sins per se. Anything that comes between you and God is wrong and should be condemded but not necessarily as a sin. Anything in excess, ie that controls you, is bad.

Homosexuality is specifically denouced as a sin in the Bible. No amount of rewriting by-laws will change that. Churches that doing this are more interested in the present life of their church and placating the political winds.


5 posted on 12/10/2012 9:39:35 AM PST by dirtymac (Now is the for all good men to come to the aid of their country.)
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd

Okay, so if the Roman Catholic Church says that Protestant denominations that have a correct form of baptism, etc are now merely “separated brethren” and no longer “heretics” under Vatican II - so were they correct pre Vatican II or post Vatican II?

Did the RCC hear from God during the Inquisition(s)? If not, are they hearing from God now?

Don’t get me wrong, I am not Catholic bashing - this goes for all churches/denominations.


6 posted on 12/10/2012 9:40:23 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Bylaws - about what’s sin or not..... how about just use the Bible


7 posted on 12/10/2012 9:41:20 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: dirtymac

If a rock music song glorifies homosexuality, is that song itself wrong to listen to?

If someone can become hooked to gambling the first time they gamble, should they have never gambled in the first place? But how will they know that they are that part of the percentage of society that gets hooked on something the first time they try it ahead of time as it would be impossible for them to know ahead of time?

Why do any denominations/churches change their stance on issues? That is what I am getting at.


8 posted on 12/10/2012 9:45:20 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Having investigated this by talking to individuals who were leaders in churches at this time, and the current “senior” leaders of such churches (including PC, USA; whom I just left after decades of service; I have served as an elder, deacon, and even informally as a substitute pastor); the truth is painful, but hard to ignore. They simply don’t believe in God. They have a spiritual belief, but not one that is consistent with scripture. They do not believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God, they believe it needs to be updated for “modern culture”. They do not believe in an unchanging God, an unchanging and absolute moral code, or in most cases in a literal hell. They believe in everything, and nothing. They will continue to cave on bylaws, until they are indistignuishable from the pagans.


9 posted on 12/10/2012 9:46:01 AM PST by LambSlave
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
IMO, other seemingly benign changes are directly indicative of the move toward overt perversion being embraced.

The most pernicious of these is the music that has been tolerated in churches. We now have the lion's share of evangelical church congregations segregated by "traditional" worship and "contemporary" worship. Abominable. And much of the "contemporary" music featured in these services would make most Christians blush if performed in the sanctuary only 20 years ago.

I've also noticed that the contemporary worship services are incrementally preempting the traditional worship, with congregations feeling the need to have at least one "with it" piece in the service to placate the "emergent" crowd. Contemporary services are also vying for prime scheduling times as well. The conservative Baptist Church my mom attends has relegated the traditional worship service to 8:30 with the contemporary service winning the prominent 11:00 spot. The evangelical church I have been attending still have the traditional service at 11:00 (with a "rock" service held concurrently in another auditorium but with the sermon videoed in), but the early and evening services are both modern.

Go ahead and accuse me being "prudish," but this is exactly how the incremental move toward the heresy we are witnessing starts.

10 posted on 12/10/2012 9:46:44 AM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I suppose the reasons church people change their “by-laws” are as varied as people are themselves. The only binding “by-laws” for the “called out ones” are the precepts God as recorded in scripture and those haven’t changed ever. And never will.


11 posted on 12/10/2012 9:47:17 AM PST by circlecity
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Your basic questions are good ones...

Helpful FYI only... plz

Governing documents of churches - the "bylaws" ---
Don't (usually) include behavior checklists of the cultural "Do's and Dont's" -- what they are "FOR" and "AGAINST".... etc

They DO contain a commitment to Biblical Christian doctrine--
--OR--
(by omission-usually),,,,
A modified doctrinal statement that is NOT committed to the lifestyle encouraged through God's Word...

Enjoy your day--God bless.

12 posted on 12/10/2012 9:50:12 AM PST by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: svcw

Whose interpretation is correct?

In a rathare large mega church some years ago, I heard a preacher preach against rock music, but he dared not preach against country music because that was ground he didn’t wish to trod. This was to the delight of the older crowd but to the consternation of the younger crowd there.

The parents were telling their kids to not listen to rock music, and the kids replied “but you listen to country music and songs that talk about adultery, fornicating, drunkenness, etc.”


13 posted on 12/10/2012 9:50:12 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd
For example, seeing as Jesus drank wine, I doubt Churches that banned alchohol when prohibition was a popular thing were hearing from God.

People who use the “water into wine” excuse are simply being deceived by one verse of Scripture taken completely out of Biblical context.

There are two kinds of ‘wine’ in the Bible. Fermented and unfermented. Unfermented “wine” or grape juice is “Holy” or “clean” while fermented wine is “unholy” and “unclean.” All alcoholic beverages are unholy and unclean!

When the juice of the grape is still “in the cluster” God calls it “wine.” Grape juice still in the cluster is not ‘fermented’ wine, it is unfermented wine. It is grape juice.

Jesus neither drank nor created fermented wine.

14 posted on 12/10/2012 9:50:43 AM PST by Wasichu
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To: svcw

Opps, meant to say “rather”


15 posted on 12/10/2012 9:51:16 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Seems that if you want people to attend, then you have to appeal to those people. What’s the use of having a church that is empty?


16 posted on 12/10/2012 9:51:57 AM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I submit that there is a difference between the acceptance of homosexuality in the (mainline mostly) church and the acceptance of other, previously unaccepted beliefs and behavior, such as no-fault divorce, unmarried cohabitation, separate entrances for men and women, praise bands with drums, pews with cushions, alcohol, smoking, universalism, the Social Gospel, etc.

It strikes me that in the case of homosexuality, more so than the others, that the Devil is openly and loudly and proactively banging on the door of the church, demanding to be let in. For most or all of the other issues, the acceptance was made (rather more) quietly, one person at a time, one church at a time, one instance at a time.

I don’t recall great debates over no-fault divorce, unwed cohabitation, and other sexuality-related issues. The acceptance came gradually and (more or less) quietly.

Having achieved success with no-fault marriage, the devil has now become more audacious and visible. He demands that the church publicly announce either its denial that homosexuality is sinful, or that take no action against this sin.

In the mainline denominations of the United Church of Christ, Presbyterian USA, Episcopal U.S., United Methodist, and Evangelical Lutheran, Satan has more or less won.


17 posted on 12/10/2012 9:54:57 AM PST by mbarker12474 (If thine enemy offend thee, give his childe a drum.)
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To: stuartcr

Is quantity more important than quality?

Is changing with the times to appeal to the madding crowd more important that pusuing absolute truth - even if you never reach absolute truth in all things?


18 posted on 12/10/2012 9:55:03 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
if the Roman Catholic Church says that Protestant denominations that have a correct form of baptism, etc are now merely “separated brethren” and no longer “heretics” under Vatican II - so were they correct pre Vatican II or post Vatican II?

For that matter, it used to be a MORTAL SIN to receive Communion if you had eaten before. Then it went down to "an hour" before . . . then it went to you could have a McD Burrito on your breath while receiving Communion.

Then, it was a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sundays . . . then you could go to Mass on Saturday afternoons (especially good if you had an early Sunday t-time) . . . then . . .

Most Christian religions have become so secularized that they are NOT Christian anymore. The extremely lax attitude towards abortion (Thou Shall Not Kill) throughout Christianity has allowed people with "good" conscience to vote for someone like Obambastard who believes 100% in all abortions and the murder of "live" birth depending on the circumstances.

Seems like the only place of refuge for anyone who truly believe in Jesus Christ is a Bible-based, hell preaching, homosexuality condemning, Church . . . where ya' gonna' find that?

Catholic Church has caved in . . . Methodism can't quite find a firm opinion on the murder of 3,300 American babies DAILY (but they do fell strongly about gambling) . . . etc.

The only church I found that preaches what Jesus stands for is a little church in West Virginia called Left Fork Baptist Church where the preacher very loudly, and with a Bible in his hands, condemns everything that is kinda' OK in the pathetic suburban Christian churches. May God help us all!

19 posted on 12/10/2012 9:56:21 AM PST by laweeks
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To: stuartcr
Seems that if you want people to attend, then you have to appeal to those people. What’s the use of having a church that is empty?

Sir, that is a recipe for heretical disaster.

20 posted on 12/10/2012 9:57:13 AM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

A lot of “Christians” have looked EVIL in the face, and embraced it.


21 posted on 12/10/2012 9:58:12 AM PST by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadows of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
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To: Wasichu
All alcoholic beverages are unholy and unclean!

Not to take away from the original post...but THAT is a stretch. I neither drink, nor condone it, but I DO cook with it. Unholy and unclean? No.

Churches getting comfortable with and condoning sin, such as murder and homosexuality, which are EXPLICITLY condemned in the Bible, are falling in line with what Jesus (indirectly as there was no church yet)Peter, and Paul said would happen.

22 posted on 12/10/2012 9:59:06 AM PST by madison10
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To: stuartcr

we are not to appeal to those people to get them to enter the building. The Holy Spirit will draw the true believers to Him.


23 posted on 12/10/2012 9:59:17 AM PST by jimfr
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To: fwdude

Amen! Going to be weird when “coming out from among them” means leaving a congregation because they embrace evil. Real Christians will again have to go “underground.”


24 posted on 12/10/2012 10:01:34 AM PST by madison10
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To: Wasichu; Wyrd bið ful aræd
There are two kinds of ‘wine’ in the Bible. Fermented and unfermented. Unfermented “wine” or grape juice is “Holy” or “clean” while fermented wine is “unholy” and “unclean.” All alcoholic beverages are unholy and unclean!

I agree, Wasichu. The alcohol apologist Christians I debate are always telling me that drinking to excess - to the point of intoxication - is the sin.

It's funny, though. I can never find any pro-alcohol Christians who DON'T drink the point of intoxication.

25 posted on 12/10/2012 10:01:52 AM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
2 Timothy 4 (NKJV)

1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

26 posted on 12/10/2012 10:04:43 AM PST by OB1kNOb (On November 6th liberty was given the death penalty in America.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
So, if a church/denomination "took a stand" against drinking and smoking or gambling, etc, etc in the 1800's in its bylaws but now has since changed the bylaws on these, did those back in the 1800's really hear from God when they crafted those bylaws?

The prohibitions in place in the 1800s were driven by the same intent that we saw with the Pharisees in Scripture. If you can put a wall around God's law, it will prevent people from breaking the actual law. For example if you don't drink, you won't get drunk and that will cut down on fighting, adultery, etc.

Throw in the temperance movement, driven by many churches, whose desire was to clean up America, and you have the drive to demonize alcohol.

That being said, the move to do away with Biblical prohibitions against homosexuality in the church stem from a low view of scripture.

As an example, we were asked to look over a PCUSA church's website for a friend and see if there were any issues. Here is what we read:

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament are God’s uniquely revealed and written Word, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and are authoritative in all areas of faith and life. We seek to understand and follow God’s Word—both Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, and the Scriptures, the written Word of God—by always interpreting any one part of Scripture in terms of the Scriptural witness as a whole, and with an appreciation of the social and cultural realities of the times during which God’s word was written and compiled. (emphasis mine)

Note the bold segment. Everything that in that well written paragraph was undermined by the bold portion. They see Scripture as being written during a less enlightened era. They don't see man's sin as never changing. In that one segment they can undermine God's law in any way they desire.

27 posted on 12/10/2012 10:05:12 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Not being a church goer, I don’t know which is more important. I guess if the church wants to pay it’s bills, then it has to generate revenue. Like the govt, I don’t know how they would do that with out people giving them money.


28 posted on 12/10/2012 10:05:12 AM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

...follow the $$$$!


29 posted on 12/10/2012 10:06:07 AM PST by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: fwdude

What exactly is heretical disaster and how would anyone even know it happened?


30 posted on 12/10/2012 10:07:04 AM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Music is not bad, I mean David even stripped down to a loin cloth and danced in the streets.
Most of the people I know who don’t like dancing, don’t like because they think it will lead to fornication.
In the very olden days when the waltz came about it was scandalous that people touched hands.
My foster dad always said, that if you like to dance dance, but it is why you dance that maybe the problem, but if someone around you becomes judgmental and angry because you dance - stop because you are instrumental in their sin, as in stumbling.
I guess that could the same for everything.
Sin in its simplest terms is anything that separates you from God Almighty.
I have been at church where people dance to the Lord, they are worshiping with fervor but have coronaries if people go to a dance.
There are somethings which are clearly spelled out as sin in the Bible, the others we must use wisdom.
(Oh, I do have a funny joke about dancing and a particular denomination but if you are of that denomination you might not laugh and I know there are those on FR who are also of that denomination.....yet I really would like to tell it)- yes I’ll slap myself.


31 posted on 12/10/2012 10:07:15 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Wasichu

eye roll
The Bible is clear - drinking is allowed drunkenness is not
People who use your argument have other issues with fermented ‘wine’, if you don’t like it don’t drink.


32 posted on 12/10/2012 10:09:12 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

End times apostacy.


33 posted on 12/10/2012 10:09:33 AM PST by crosshairs (The left's hatred for Christianity far exceeds the fear they should have for Islam.)
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To: stuartcr
What exactly is heretical disaster and how would anyone even know it happened?

Uh, the subject of this essay is a pretty good example. Or do you agree with homosexuality not a sin?

34 posted on 12/10/2012 10:11:56 AM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: madison10

this is the kind of thinking folks get (i.e. two kinds of ‘wine’) when you rely on the ‘holy spirit’ and me and my bible, to get you through....


35 posted on 12/10/2012 10:12:35 AM PST by raygunfan
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
I think the question is, which of those things that you listed are clearly identified by the Bible as sin? Aside from homosexuality, which is identified as sin in both the Old and New Testaments, none of the others is identified as a sin. Drunkenness is listed as something to be avoided, but smoking, gambling, music? I think there are many things which churches have decided contributed to temptation (dancing, for example) or caused other problems for the individual or society (smoking, drugs, etc.), but that was a determination by man, not something from the Bible.

But the churches that are moving toward accepting homosexuality as normal, and approving gay marriage, are definitely in conflict with the Bible. THAT is the difference.

36 posted on 12/10/2012 10:12:38 AM PST by CA Conservative (Texan by birth, Californian by circumstance)
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To: laweeks

I am not Catholic so I do not have any idea why this was a rule.
Why did (and apparently changing) the communion on an empty stomach as sinful?


37 posted on 12/10/2012 10:13:18 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

BINGO!


38 posted on 12/10/2012 10:14:28 AM PST by Fido969
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To: fwdude

Disaster seems like an incredible stretch if this is an example.

I do not believe that sin exists.


39 posted on 12/10/2012 10:15:50 AM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: svcw
The Bible is clear - drinking is allowed drunkenness is not

There is really only ONE reason these days for drinking alcohol - for the effect it gives. Otherwise, any other non-alcoholic beverage would do (there are near-perfect non-alcoholic stand ins for the wine or beer lovers.)

As I posted earlier, I have yet to know an alcohol defending Christian who doesn't get intoxicated. Their defense is an excuse to do so. (Of course, the alcohol Christian gets to define "intoxicated" while in the intoxicated state they're trying to monitor.)

40 posted on 12/10/2012 10:16:30 AM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: stuartcr
I do not believe that sin exists.

Wow! Then you don't believe in 'eternal life' on FR either, do you?

Reported.

41 posted on 12/10/2012 10:18:07 AM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Wasichu

Ignores the basic science of fermentation. Until sulfates were added to grape juice in the 1800’s it would naturally ferment inside of hours.


42 posted on 12/10/2012 10:18:38 AM PST by vortec94
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; laweeks
I'm not a theologian, so take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt. We Catholics have eternal non changing Doctrinal Laws and then we've got Canon Laws. Just because a nun, priest, or bishop said something does not mean it was official Church Doctrine. Canon laws change ALL the time and believe it or not from country to country. The Communion fast is an example of canon law.

We use separated brethren because it sounds nicer. We still believe Protestants are material heretics, although perhaps not formal ones, since they don't know any better. Incidentally, we Catholics believe they're all heretics - the Mormons, the Hindus, the Buddhists, etc. We believe we're the one True Church on Earth and if you don't believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, you're a material (although perhaps not formal) heretic. And if you're attending a church that you believe didn't get it right, then what the h-e-double toothpicks are you doing there?

As far as the Inquistion goes, human beings are not perfect and so we make and admit mistakes. But are Jews, Muslims, and Protestants heretics to us Catholics? Well, yeah, we just don't kill or torture them anymore.

43 posted on 12/10/2012 10:19:28 AM PST by old and tired
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Why are they changing? Pretty simple answer—the marketing of deviance by homowood and the old media monopoly is forcing them to change. Furthermore, homosexual power and rights is nothing new. You act as if Sodom and Gomorrah never existed. Homosexuals had all the rights that perverts today address and then some. Same in ancient Rome where, male homosexuals were allowed to buy, sell, use and trade young boys. Same-sex trafficking was in vogue. Some of us simply don’t want to return to what then was defined as civilization.


44 posted on 12/10/2012 10:21:10 AM PST by Neoliberalnot (Marxism works well only with the uneducated and the unarmed.)
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To: mbarker12474; Laissez-faire capitalist
In the mainline denominations of the United Church of Christ, Presbyterian USA, Episcopal U.S., United Methodist, and Evangelical Lutheran, Satan has more or less won.

Perhaps... but 'won' what? These churches are hemorrhaging members. They will surely die on the vine as their congregants leave for greener pastures. And it is no coincidence that the fastest growing churches are the non-denominational spirit-filled variety that have no 'confession', but are only and very insistently Bible concentric.

The smaller churches with a congregational structure tend to be more adept at removing heresies by utter collapse. It is the hierarchical churches, which by their hierarchy, are able to absorb heretical doctrine and survive it for a longer period of time... And the more hierarchical, the more likely one is to find institutionalized forms of those very things, because the hierarchy becomes inured to admitting their error.

And the cost of bureaucracy ALWAYS leads to concession. Gotta get them butts in the pews and get them wallets to open up... And so, a compromise in doctrine becomes inevitable.

45 posted on 12/10/2012 10:21:36 AM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: fwdude

I don’t see how the 2 are related, but I honestly have no idea what happens after death.


46 posted on 12/10/2012 10:22:35 AM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

In this case, the “church”, i.e., “the bride of Christ”, (She) who marries the spirit of the age will become a widow in the next.

Many in the church claim to be following God or say they are simply following the leading of the Holy Spirit in liberalizing church teaching or doctrine. Others in the church say they are adhering to the intent of the Holy Scriptures and are also following and accepting the leading, urging and prodding of the Holy Spirit. Put another way, has God’s Truth been revealed once and for all or is it a progressive revelation, ever moving, ever changing?

One thing is perfectly clear in my mind, God the Holy Ghost is NOT confused. One side is right and the other is wrong. May God have mercy upon them all.


47 posted on 12/10/2012 10:26:15 AM PST by miele man
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

“What bylaw(s) is/are absolutely correct and never need to be changed?”

Well, there are at least ten I could think of...


48 posted on 12/10/2012 10:27:40 AM PST by Boogieman
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To: fwdude

I don’t.


49 posted on 12/10/2012 10:29:42 AM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: fwdude

I don’t.


50 posted on 12/10/2012 10:30:27 AM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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