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Christ in the Eucharist (Ecumenical)
Catholic.com ^

Posted on 12/29/2012 2:41:32 PM PST by narses

Protestant attacks on the Catholic Church often focus on the Eucharist. This demonstrates that opponents of the Church—mainly Evangelicals and Fundamentalists—recognize one of Catholicism’s core doctrines. What’s more, the attacks show that Fundamentalists are not always literalists. This is seen in their interpretation of the key biblical passage, chapter six of John’s Gospel, in which Christ speaks about the sacrament that will be instituted at the Last Supper. This tract examines the last half of that chapter.

John 6:30 begins a colloquy that took place in the synagogue at Capernaum. The Jews asked Jesus what sign he could perform so that they might believe in him. As a challenge, they noted that "our ancestors ate manna in the desert." Could Jesus top that? He told them the real bread from heaven comes from the Father. "Give us this bread always," they said. Jesus replied, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst." At this point the Jews understood him to be speaking metaphorically.

Again and Again

Jesus first repeated what he said, then summarized: "‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’" (John 6:51–52).

His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56).

No Corrections

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct "misunderstandings," for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?

On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.

In John 6:60 we read: "Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’" These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).

But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) "After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him" (John 6:66).

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.

But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have "to eat my flesh and drink my blood." John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper—and it was a promise that could not be more explicit. Or so it would seem to a Catholic. But what do Fundamentalists say?

Merely Figurative?

They say that in John 6 Jesus was not talking about physical food and drink, but about spiritual food and drink. They quote John 6:35: "Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.’" They claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.

But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, "The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense" (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.

Fundamentalist writers who comment on John 6 also assert that one can show Christ was speaking only metaphorically by comparing verses like John 10:9 ("I am the door") and John 15:1 ("I am the true vine"). The problem is that there is not a connection to John 6:35, "I am the bread of life." "I am the door" and "I am the vine" make sense as metaphors because Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him—and he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him. But Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).

He continues: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me" (John 6:57). The Greek word used for "eats" (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of "chewing" or "gnawing." This is not the language of metaphor.

Their Main Argument

For Fundamentalist writers, the scriptural argument is capped by an appeal to John 6:63: "It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." They say this means that eating real flesh is a waste. But does this make sense?

Are we to understand that Christ had just commanded his disciples to eat his flesh, then said their doing so would be pointless? Is that what "the flesh is of no avail" means? "Eat my flesh, but you’ll find it’s a waste of time"—is that what he was saying? Hardly.

The fact is that Christ’s flesh avails much! If it were of no avail, then the Son of God incarnated for no reason, he died for no reason, and he rose from the dead for no reason. Christ’s flesh profits us more than anyone else’s in the world. If it profits us nothing, so that the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ are of no avail, then "your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished" (1 Cor. 15:17b–18).

In John 6:63 "flesh profits nothing" refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them. Thus in John 8:15–16 Jesus tells his opponents: "You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me." So natural human judgment, unaided by God’s grace, is unreliable; but God’s judgment is always true.

And were the disciples to understand the line "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life" as nothing but a circumlocution (and a very clumsy one at that) for "symbolic"? No one can come up with such interpretations unless he first holds to the Fundamentalist position and thinks it necessary to find a rationale, no matter how forced, for evading the Catholic interpretation. In John 6:63 "flesh" does not refer to Christ’s own flesh—the context makes this clear—but to mankind’s inclination to think on a natural, human level. "The words I have spoken to you are spirit" does not mean "What I have just said is symbolic." The word "spirit" is never used that way in the Bible. The line means that what Christ has said will be understood only through faith; only by the power of the Spirit and the drawing of the Father (cf. John 6:37, 44–45, 65).

Paul Confirms This

Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" (1 Cor. 10:16). So when we receive Communion, we actually participate in the body and blood of Christ, not just eat symbols of them. Paul also said, "Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself" (1 Cor. 11:27, 29). "To answer for the body and blood" of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine "unworthily" be so serious? Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.

What Did the First Christians Say?

Anti-Catholics also claim the early Church took this chapter symbolically. Is that so? Let’s see what some early Christians thought, keeping in mind that we can learn much about how Scripture should be interpreted by examining the writings of early Christians.

Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to "those who hold heterodox opinions," that "they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again" (6:2, 7:1).

Forty years later, Justin Martyr, wrote, "Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66:1–20).

Origen, in a homily written about A.D. 244, attested to belief in the Real Presence. "I wish to admonish you with examples from your religion. You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish. You account yourselves guilty, and rightly do you so believe, if any of it be lost through negligence" (Homilies on Exodus 13:3).

Cyril of Jerusalem, in a catechetical lecture presented in the mid-300s, said, "Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ" (Catechetical Discourses: Mystagogic 4:22:9).

In a fifth-century homily, Theodore of Mopsuestia seemed to be speaking to today’s Evangelicals and Fundamentalists: "When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood,’ for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements], after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit, not according to their nature, but to receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord" (Catechetical Homilies 5:1).

Unanimous Testimony

Whatever else might be said, the early Church took John 6 literally. In fact, there is no record from the early centuries that implies Christians doubted the constant Catholic interpretation. There exists no document in which the literal interpretation is opposed and only the metaphorical accepted.

Why do Fundamentalists and Evangelicals reject the plain, literal interpretation of John 6? For them, Catholic sacraments are out because they imply a spiritual reality—grace—being conveyed by means of matter. This seems to them to be a violation of the divine plan. For many Protestants, matter is not to be used, but overcome or avoided.

One suspects, had they been asked by the Creator their opinion of how to bring about mankind’s salvation, Fundamentalists would have advised him to adopt a different approach. How much cleaner things would be if spirit never dirtied itself with matter! But God approves of matter—he approves of it because he created it—and he approves of it so much that he comes to us under the appearances of bread and wine, just as he does in the physical form of the Incarnate Christ.

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004 IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827 permission to publish this work is hereby granted. +Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Orthodox Christian; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: breadandwine; catholic; communion; eucharist
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1 posted on 12/29/2012 2:41:35 PM PST by narses
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To: narses; mgist; raptor22; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; ...
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2 posted on 12/29/2012 2:42:29 PM PST by narses
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To: narses

Just so. If Jesus didn’t really mean what he said, then why did he let so many of his disciples leave? And why would they leave, unless they took his words literally but refused to accept them?

This question is at the very heart of the difference between Catholics and Protestants.


3 posted on 12/29/2012 3:49:04 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: narses

Although I believe in transubstantiation I am pretty sure if I had been in the crowd listening to Jesus say that we should eat his flesh and drink his blood I would have thought “that’s it I’m outta here, what a whackjob.”

Reading a book on Eucharistic Miracles helped to firm up my belief in the Real Presence, though it left me wondering if at the next communion the accidents of bread and wine would turn into the real thing like it did in some cases. I told my friend, who gave me the book, that if that ever happens to me I am going to FREAK OUT, and he said that if that happened to me he would freak out too.


4 posted on 12/29/2012 4:01:46 PM PST by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: Cicero
This question is at the very heart of the difference between Catholics and Protestants.
Precisely!
6 posted on 12/29/2012 4:18:08 PM PST by narses
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Comment #7 Removed by Moderator

To: daniel1212; narses
I didn't see an author listed at the site. Did you?

Imho, all that narses did was to acknowledge that he posted the article. Is that a problem?

8 posted on 12/29/2012 4:29:38 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: daniel1212; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; ...
I read that post and saw so many errors of thought and logic I didn’t know where to start. It truly comes down to:

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In that case we can only keep posting truth for those who lurk but don’t post.

9 posted on 12/29/2012 4:35:34 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: narses

Here are some important verses in John 6:

1-6 After this Jesus crossed the Lake of Galilee (or Lake Tiberias), and a great crowd followed him because they had seen signs which he gave in his dealings with the sick. But Jesus went up the hillside and sat down there with his disciples. The Passover, the Jewish festival, was near. So Jesus, raising his eyes and seeing a great crowd on the way towards him, said to Philip, “Where can we buy food for these people to eat?” (He said this to test Philip, for he himself knew what he was going to do.)

7 “Ten pounds’ worth of bread would not be enough for them,” Philip replied, “even if they had only a little each.”

8-9 Then Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, another disciple, put in, “There is a boy here who has five small barley loaves and a couple of fish, but what’s the good of that for such a crowd?”

10a Then Jesus said, “Get the people to sit down.”

10b-12 There was plenty of grass there, and the men, some five thousand of them, sat down. Then Jesus took the loaves, gave thanks for them and distributed them to the people sitting on the grass, and he distributed the fish in the same way, giving them as much as they wanted. When they had eaten enough, Jesus said to his disciples, “Collect the pieces that are left over so that nothing is wasted.”

13-14 So they did as he suggested and filled twelve baskets with the broken pieces of the five barley loaves, which were left over after the people had eaten! When the men saw this sign of Jesus’ power, they kept saying, “This certainly is the Prophet who was to come into the world!”

15 Then Jesus, realising that they were going to carry him off and make him their king, retired once more to the hill-side quite alone...

... Some other small boats from Tiberias had landed quite near the place where they had eaten the food and the Lord had given thanks. When the crowd realised that neither Jesus nor the disciples were there any longer, they themselves got into the boats and went off to Capernaum to look for Jesus. When they had found him on the other side of the lake, they said to him, “Master, when did you come here?”

26-27 “Believe me,” replied Jesus, “you are looking for me now not because you saw my signs but because you ate that food and had all you wanted. You should not work for the food which does not last but for the food which lasts on into eternal life. This is the food the Son of Man will give you, and he is the one who bears the stamp of God the Father.”

Context is a wonderful thing. When Jesus talked about bread, he was referring BACK to the miracle of the previous day, and the one that had brought so many followers to him. None of what he said would make sense to ANY listener as referring to the Last Supper, which was a few years away...


10 posted on 12/29/2012 4:39:02 PM PST by Mr Rogers (America is becoming California, and California is becoming Detroit. Detroit is already hell.)
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To: narses

I will add that it should be obvious that taking the Bible literally means that it is taken so when written, but not such as when metaphor is used, so that we neither believe that water has turned into blood even though David regarded it as such, (2Sam. 23:15-17, ) or that the Promised Land was “a land that eateth up the inhabitants,” or that “the people of the land...are bread for us” (Num. 13:32; 14:9), or thart Jeremiah did not literally eat God’s words when he said, “thy words were found. and I ate them,” (Jer. 15:16), nor Ezekiel (Ezek. 3:1) or John. (Rev. 10:8-9)

Those who insist on this kind of literalism have eaten the fruit of lies. (Prv. 10:13)

But what the basic literal hermeneutic of SS does require is that of taking historical accounts as literal events, but which officially sanctioned Roman Catholic scholarship denies, right in her own Bible: http://www.peacebyjesus.net/Ancients_on_Scripture.html#Remarks


11 posted on 12/29/2012 4:51:41 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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you can lead a anti catholic ‘elitest’ to water, but you cant make him drink...

history, the bible and the early church and fathers speak out clearly and loudly against the protestant view, those who go against that history...will be the big losers in the end.


12 posted on 12/29/2012 4:57:05 PM PST by raygunfan
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absolutely hilarious that 2000 years removed from THOSE WHO LIVED IT, WALKED AND TALKED with the apostles and church fathers, laid the foundations of the church, and learned through Sacred traditions of the teaching church, about the REAL PRESENCE, that folks can sit here on this board and others with their edited kjv and pretend to know more than those who were there...

seriously, what unmitigated gall.


13 posted on 12/29/2012 5:06:22 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: daniel1212; trisham; Religion Moderator

No author was listed. What are you claiming is wrong with me posting this?


14 posted on 12/29/2012 5:11:10 PM PST by narses
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To: CynicalBear

It appears all you have is — ‘tain’t so. But the clear words of Our Lord disagree with you.


15 posted on 12/29/2012 5:12:51 PM PST by narses
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: daniel1212

Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16).

Paul also said, “Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29).

“To answer for the body and blood” of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine “unworthily” be so serious? Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.


17 posted on 12/29/2012 5:14:40 PM PST by narses
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To: daniel1212; narses

I’m not sure what your problem is. The link to the source is right at the top.


18 posted on 12/29/2012 5:21:46 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: daniel1212

I followed the link in your post #5 and skimmed over the arguments made against the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist.

It sure takes a lot of wrangling of verses and words to explain away the plain words of Jesus and the early Christians writers.


19 posted on 12/29/2012 5:32:35 PM PST by Jvette
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To: raygunfan

It is Rome that is elitists, autocratically declaring she is infallible, while other sola ecclessia churches (Mormons and the like) make the same threats.

The real “losers” are those who follow those who presume of themselves more than what is written, including that even being the stewards of Holy Writ and inheritor of the promises makes them assuredly infallible, such as whenever they speak according to their infallibly defined formula.


20 posted on 12/29/2012 5:33:24 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Mr Rogers

Yes, context is a wonderful thing. What was left out of your context was Jesus explicitly speaking of the manna which the ancestors of these men ate in the desert. The manna was miraculous, a gift from God for their physical sustenance.

That discourse is much more salient to the discussion of the reality of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist than the miracle of feeding the five thousand which, like the manna, was a mere precursor to the real miracle.

There is so much in that passage that supports the Eucharist and nothing that contradicts the Catholic belief or disproves it either.


21 posted on 12/29/2012 5:42:36 PM PST by Jvette
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you avoided the plain truth of what i said, the early church fathers, adhering to the teaching church, BEFORE THERE WAS AN BIBLE, and certainly before your man-made edited kjv version , believed and taught the clear truth of the real presence, AS CHRIST HIMSELF TAUGHT, your labored hermeneutical gymnastics to deny the clear truth of that is pathetic.

I will take the three-legged stool that consists of Christ’s divinely appointed teaching church, the word, and Sacred tradition THAT IS CLEARLY SHOWN IN EARLY CHURCH HISTORY, INCLUDING THE CHURCH FATHERS, THAT YOU DENY/IGNORE/DISMISS, as opposed to someone 2000 years removed, with an edited kjv and HIS OWN interpretation of it, OVER AND ABOVE CHRIST’S PLAIN TEACHING.


22 posted on 12/29/2012 5:48:06 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: narses; trisham; Cicero

Thank you Cicero and my sincere (blushed) apology! I did not notice the red Catholic.com link).

Catholic answers does however restrict copying to brief quotations.http://www.catholic.com/about/permissions

Not that this is not violated by others at times in copying from on certain sites, and a “print” options usually accompany such notices, and often copyright notices go beyond what is legally allowed i think fair use may allow one copy be made for personal use.


23 posted on 12/29/2012 5:50:39 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212; Religion Moderator

Thanks for the apology. Religion Moderator - can you erase the argumentative and unnecessary posts here so that the “meat” of the matter remains, as it were?


24 posted on 12/29/2012 5:52:57 PM PST by narses
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To: Jvette
followed the link in your post #5 and skimmed over the arguments..

Skimming is what is requiring to remain convinced that eating Jesus body is necessary to have life in you, and that eating must be literal. This is not how souls received life in them, but it a different gospel. Instead, believers life as Jesus did, as He stated in Jn. 6:57 (cf. Jn. 4:34; Mt. 4:4)

25 posted on 12/29/2012 5:55:27 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: narses

He beat you to it. I think those are the only two posts by me that were removed in 7 years as i try to be careful. Sorry again!


26 posted on 12/29/2012 6:00:17 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Jvette
followed the link in your post #5 and skimmed over the arguments..

Skimming is what is requiring to remain convinced that eating Jesus body is necessary to have life in you. This is not how souls received life in them, but is a different gospel. Instead, believers live as Jesus did, as He stated in Jn. 6:57 (cf. Jn. 4:34; Mt. 4:4)

27 posted on 12/29/2012 6:00:50 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

Well there you go! I have had a few removed and I understand, we become certain we are right and that blinds us. There is a lesson there perhaps.

You are certain the Church is wrong about the Body and Blood of Our Lord, right?


28 posted on 12/29/2012 6:04:26 PM PST by narses
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To: narses

Go read http://www.voiceofjesus.org/eatmyfleshc.html and then let’s have a discussion.


29 posted on 12/29/2012 6:05:41 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: narses; Religion Moderator
Protestant attacks on the Catholic Church often focus on the Eucharist.

This thread is tagged as "ecumenical", and starts out like this?

Why should I even play the game?

30 posted on 12/29/2012 6:09:25 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means." --I. Montoya)
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To: daniel1212; Jvette
Skimming is what is requiring to remain convinced that eating Jesus body is necessary to have life in you
Perhaps study would do you more good than skimming.
St. Ignatius of Antioch
Letter to the Smyrnaeans 7
From Eucharist and prayer they hold aloof, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His loving-kindness raised from the dead. And so, those who question the gift of God perish in their contentiousness. It would be better for them to have love, so as to share in the resurrection. It is proper, therefore, to avoid associating with such people and not to speak about them either in private or in public, but to study the Prophets attentively and, especially, the Gospel, in which the Passion is revealed to us and the Resurrection shown in its fulfillment. Shun division as the beginning of evil.

31 posted on 12/29/2012 6:11:04 PM PST by narses
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: daniel1212
Thank you for those verses that confirm Catholic belief. <<<>>> Really? 53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ Jesus is the Word which came from the mouth of God. Bread alone is not enough, just as it wasn't enough for the Jews wondering in the desert. Jesus is the Word and it is Jesus in the Eucharist that gives life. I don't need to delve deeply into what you linked as I have the plain word of Scripture to tell me all I need to know about the Eucharist.
33 posted on 12/29/2012 6:19:26 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Jvette; daniel1212

sorry for the formatting in that post. don’t know what went wrong.


34 posted on 12/29/2012 6:25:37 PM PST by Jvette
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To: narses
You are certain the Church is wrong about the Body and Blood of Our Lord, right?

Of that i am quite certain, as this is not the result of a too hasty view and missing two words, but is a result of careful examination over a long term, and its demonstrated Scriptural conflation, and which is different than my view i held as Catholic as a result of believing what i was told.

35 posted on 12/29/2012 6:25:47 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

1 Corinthians 10

14
Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols.
15
I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.
16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
17
Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
18
Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?
19
What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?
20
No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons.
21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.


36 posted on 12/29/2012 6:30:03 PM PST by narses
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To: narses

But church fathers are not Scripture and are not determinative in doctrine, and even Rome judges them more than they judge her.

And the view of Ignatius has no more weight or warrant than the view of some so-called church fathers that marital relations are always unclean, as they “cannot be effected without the ardour of lust.” And that second marriage, having been freed from the first by death, “will have to be termed no other than a species of fornication,’’ partly based on the reasoning that such involves desiring to marry a women out of sexual ardor. And that since a priest must always pray, he cannot be married. Or that odd numbers denote cleanness, and “two is not a good number because it destroys unity, and prefigures the marriage compact.”

Nor were they settled in all their beliefs, or in unity with each other, nor does all of Rome’s doctrine have their unanimous consent.

Meanwhile, it is abundantly evidenced that Scriptural substantiation was the standard for obedience and establishing truth claims.


37 posted on 12/29/2012 6:43:40 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Jvette
I don't need to delve deeply into what you linked as I have the plain word of Scripture to tell me all I need to know about the Eucharist.

Indeed, you must not delve deeply but maintain a very superficial view of Biblical language on eating if you texts maintain such must be literal. Which again, to be consistent in your literalism, means David poured out water made blood, and Jesus lived by eating the Father's flesh, and souls were dead until they consumed the corporeal body of Christ,

38 posted on 12/29/2012 6:52:34 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

Thank you, daniel. Very much.


39 posted on 12/29/2012 6:57:25 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: narses

Sacrificing and eating denoted fellowship, a oneness with those who were taking part in the sacrificing in identification with the object of sacrifice, and thus believers cannot be part of pagan communions.

And as the next chapter (1Cor. 11) teaches, to take part in the Lord’s supper is to commemorate it by care for each others, which the love feast, the “feast of charity,” expressed.

And thus to not do so, but to take hypocritically part in it selfishly, as they were in 1Cor. 11, is “not to eat the Lord’s supper,” as they were not recognizing the neglected members as part of the body of Christ, this being the context, and which follows into the next chapter.

What 1 Cor. 11 teaches on this is more fully shown here: http://www.peacebyjesus.net/Bible/1Cor._11.html#11


40 posted on 12/29/2012 7:07:30 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: trisham

Thank you. And the Lord, “For in many things we offend all.” (Ja. 3:2)


41 posted on 12/29/2012 7:09:31 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

1 Corinthians 10

14
Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols.
15
I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.
16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
17
Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
18
Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?
19
What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?
20
No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons.
21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.


42 posted on 12/29/2012 7:37:54 PM PST by narses
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To: daniel1212

Not superficial at all.

The OT is not the NT and what happened in the OT is but a foretaste of what was to come in Jesus.

The Word did indeed exist from all eternity, but the flesh of Jesus did not exist until His conception.

Also, Jesus never says He eats of the Father’s flesh. That would be impossible as the Father has no flesh. What He said was that He had meat you know not of. Or in the KJV version, food to eat that you know not of.

Further, there is nothing in Catholic teaching that says that souls are dead until they consume the body of Christ. The soul is immortal, the life of which Christ speaks is life in the Kingdom of God.

Literalism is not an all or nothing concept concerning Scripture. Both extremes, rejecting all literalism or taking every passage literally has been used to divide Christ’s church.


43 posted on 12/29/2012 7:50:21 PM PST by Jvette
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To: Lee N. Field

More leeway is given to the article on “ecumenical” Religion Forum thread than to the reply posts.


44 posted on 12/29/2012 8:19:45 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Jvette
Jesus never says He eats of the Father’s flesh. That would be impossible as the Father has no flesh. What He said was that He had meat you know not of. .

That it was impossible is my point, but Jesus said,

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. " (John 6:57)

So we "live" as Jesus did, and which was by believing and doing the word of God, as that was His "bread and butter."

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " (Matthew 4:4)

"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. " (John 4:34)

Further, there is nothing in Catholic teaching that says that souls are dead until they consume the body of Christ. The soul is immortal, the life of which Christ speaks is life in the Kingdom of God.

Rome teaches that it is the seed of eternal life and often RCs argue for their wafer on the basis of Jn. 6:53, that it is necessary to have life in you, making no qualifications as you cannot, for it means it is necessity to "eat" the bread Jesus gives in order to have life and to live for Him.

However, we do not see souls being born again or constantly exhorted to live by consuming the Lord physically, but they were born again when they heard and believed the gospel message, (Eph. 1:13) and the word of God effectually worked in those who believed, (1Ths. 2:13) effecting obedience. Thus the priority of the apostles in preaching, so that it was "not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables." (Acts 6:2)

If the Eucharist was what Rome says it is, and critical to have life in you and to receive grace, it would often be mentioned at least in the letters to the churches. However, despite the paramount priority Rome places on The Lord's supper, it not a manifest subject in any of the epistles to the church, except the description of it as "feasts of charity' in Jude 1:12, and in 1Cor. 11, and which definitely does not teach that the elements are the Lord's body .

This conspicuous absence is set in contrast to the many exhortations to live by believing the gospel and live by the word as in acting it out in service to others. And which corresponds to how Jesus lived and died, and which believers commemorated in their "feasts of charity," which was not that of focus on a wafer, but a communal meal of sharing. Literalism is not an all or nothing concept concerning Scripture. Both extremes, rejecting all literalism or taking every passage literally has been used to divide Christ’s church

Indeed, literalism is not an all or nothing concept concerning Scripture, but that it must be taken literally here is the RC argument, but which is overall contrary to what Scripture says, and John's method of teaching.

45 posted on 12/29/2012 8:33:55 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: narses


Christ in the Eucharist (Ecumenical)
Canon Law and Consecrating the Eucharist (Catholic Caucus)
COMMUNION THROUGH A FEEDING TUBE (And More on Confirmations)
The Eucharist -- John 6
Catholicism and Fundamentalism — The Eucharist
On the Giving and Receiving of Holy Communion: Some norms to recall [Catholic Caucus]
Catholic Word of the Day: HOLY COMMUNION, 05-19-12
Following the Truth: Recognizing Jesus In The Eucharist [Catholic Caucus]
The Fourth Cup
The Last Supper and the Forgiveness of Sins
Bread from Heaven: The Eucharist Sustains Us and Lifts Us Up [Catholic Caucus]
Essays for Lent: The Eucharist
Essays for Lent: The Mass
Excerpt from: The Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Divorced Catholics and the Eucharist
Following The Truth: So, You Just Received Jesus…Now What? (Catholic or Open)
The Coptic Orthodox doctrine of the Eucharistic sacrifice

Auxiliary Bishop Says Communion In the Hand is a Calvinist Novelty [Ecumenical]
How Something We Consider Solidly Traditional was Once Thought Progressive (Catholic)
Transubstantiation: Change We Can Believe In
Diocese limits Communion under both kinds, laments excessive extraordinary ministers
Phoenix Diocese to adopt new norms for Holy Communion [Catholic Caucus]
What Does GIRM 160 for the USA Really Say?
Lift the City - a Catholic Eucharistic flash mob (Catholic Caucus)
Justin Martyr: 1st apology: Sacraments, Eucharist {Catholic/Orthodox caucus}
The Institution of the Eucharist in Scripture [Catholic Caucus]
How the Mass is a sacrifice, and why so many deny this doctrine (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
[Ecumenical] Lent through Eastertide - Divine Mercy Diary Exerpts: Holy Communion and the Eucharist
Vatican consultant responds to Cardinal Mahoney ‘Christ gave Judas communion’ argument
New book connects the Eucharist with its Jewish roots
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST (sections 3 only) {Ecumenical Thread}
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST (sections 1&2 only) {Ecumenical Thread}
The Perfect Sacrifice: When Heaven Comes to Earth [Catholic Caucus]
The Real Presence [Church Fathers on the Holy Eucharist, cont'd ]
Is the Mass a Sacrifice? (Once and for all, Heb 9-10) {Catholic/Orthodox Caucus}
Radio Replies Second Volume - Holy Communion
The Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist {Catholic/Orthodox Caucus}

Radio Replies Second Volume - The Sacrifice of the Mass
Radio Replies Second Volume - Holy Eucharist
How Do We Prepare Well for the Coming of the Lord
Thanksgiving, the Prophets and the Eucharist
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Pope of a Eucharistic Springtime
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live
[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] 5th Luminous Mystery: Institution of the Eucharist (Patristic Rosary)
Wounded in the house of them that loved Me
[CATHOLIC / ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Eucharist is Jesus' greatest gift to us, teaches Pope Benedict XVI
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] What makes Jesus present in the Eucharist: broadening one's view.
The Catholic Mass in 155 A.D.
Pope's Q--A at End of Priestly Year Pt 4 "We Celebrate,..Meditate..on Eucharist" [Catholic Caucus]
Sacrifice, Transubstantiation, and Real Presence (Pope Benedict XVI) [Catholic Caucus]
Catholic Caucus: Eucharist is the Heart of God
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS]'Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity': The Miracle and Gift of the Most Holy Eucharist
A Secular Eucharist
Paul and the Eucharist
Centered in the Eucharist
Centered in the Eucharist
Who Can Receive Communion? (Catholic Caucus)

Respect For Christ In The Eucharist – One Priest’s Perspective
From The Gospel To Life: The Disciples and the Eucharist
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: The Eucharist: The Lord's Supper
THE PRIEST IN THE COMMUNION RITES - Liturgy Prepares for Reception of the Eucharist
Novena with Saint Peter Julian Eymard for Prayer in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament [Prayer]
Boston Cardinal: Church Needs 'Clear' Injunction Denying Pro-Abortion Pols Communion
Benedict XVI calls priests to protect communion between God and man
Eucharist: Holy Sacrifice
Fr. Men: The Eucharist [Cath-Orth caucus]
Catholics in Costa Rica outraged by disrespect toward Eucharist [Catholic Caucus]
The Institution of the Eucharist in Scripture
St Anthony and the Real Presence
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace: The Eucharist
EWTN - October 29 - 8PM - Fr. Antoine and the Eucharist
All Should Offer Their Bodies and Blood at Mass (Father Cantalamessa) [Catholic Caucus]
The Role of the Bishop of Rome in the Communion of the Church in the First Millennium
Radio Replies First Volume - Holy Eucharist
The Institution of the Eucharist in Scripture
Catholic Caucus: The Spiritual Combat Ch 54. MANNER IN WHICH WE OUGHT TO RECEIVE...BLESSED SACRAMENT
Catholic Caucus: The Spiritual Combat: Ch 53. CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST

A Few Texts From Saint Cyril of Jerusalem on the Eucharist
Catholic Devotional: On Visiting Jesus Christ In the Blessed Sacrament
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Focus on the Real Presence
A Chinese Girl-True Story That Inspired Bishop Fulton Sheen- Eucharist Adoration (Catholic Caucus)
Doubting Thomases(Eucharist); the Pitfalls of Folly(Catholic Caucus)
Rainbow sash-wearers prohibited from receiving [the Eucharist at Cathedral of St. Paul]
The significance of Holy Thursday (institution of the Eucharist and priesthood)
Our Lady of the Most Blessed Sacrament [Catholic Caucus]
The Catechism of St. Thomas Aquinas THE HOLY EUCHARIST
Holy Communion and Non-Catholics (with a Quiz!)
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Christmas and the Eucharist(Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
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Imitating Christ in the Eucharist(Catholic Caucus)
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Christmas and the Eucharist
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THE HOLY EUCHARIST: NOURISHMENT TO FINISH OUR COURSE
The Eucharist in Scripture - Part 1 - Old Testament
LITANY OF REPARATION TO OUR LORD IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT
Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament
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The Year of the Eucharist by Bishop Donald Wuerl
"While We're At It": What can we do to show that the Eucharist is a communal activity?
CATHOLICS AND BAPTISTS WITNESSED UNUSUAL IMAGES IN BLESSED SACRAMENT
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The Fourth Cup: The Sacrament of the Eucharist [Holy Thursday] [Passover]
Holy Father stresses Need of Devotion to Holy Eucharist outside of Mass: Pope Paul VI

46 posted on 12/29/2012 8:53:24 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: daniel1212
Are you saying that at the Last Supper when Christ blessed the bread, broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this is my Body which will be given up for you."

And --

In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took the chalice, and giving you thanks, he said the blessings, and gave the chalice yto his disciples, saying: "Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my Blood, the blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of me."

So are you saying that Christ was not telling the truth?

47 posted on 12/29/2012 9:04:10 PM PST by Salvation (("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26))
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To: narses

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004


48 posted on 12/29/2012 9:11:29 PM PST by Salvation (("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26))
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To: Salvation

Obviously, you are either have a superficial understanding of Biblical and even everyday language, or you are purposely presenting a specious argument as you must defend Rome as being correct.

>”Are you saying that at the Last Supper when Christ blessed the bread, broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this is my Body which will be given up for you.”<

Your argument assumes that the truth here must be a literal consumption of the Lord’s body (to kosher Jews who simply assented to eating blood, and Jesus eat his own body), based on the premise that eating and drinking must be literal, but which what needs to be proved.

If you had begun at the beginning of this thread i would not have to do this, but let me illustrate your logical fallacy,

Are you saying that when David said,

“Be it far from me, O LORD, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it,” (see 2Sam. 23:15-17) that he was not telling the truth, that the water was in fact blood? He calls it blood, and nothing here denies it, and being a lawful Jew he poured out the blood, which is what priests and the Israelites did with blood.

Or that that a literal meaning is not allowed when it says the Promised Land was “a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof.”

And that the people of the land “are bread for us.” (Num. 13:32; 14:9

And (consistent with words being eaten) when Jeremiah proclaims, “Your words were found and I did eat them.” (Jer. 15:16) then a literal consumption must be meant?

Likewise when Ezekiel is told, “eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel.” (Ezek. 3:1)

And when John is commanded, “Take the scroll ... Take it and eat it.” (Rev. 10:8-9)

And rather than John introducing gaining life by eating, instead believing the gospel is how souls were made alive.

And thus use of metaphor is entirely consistent with John.

In John 1:29, He is “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

In John 3, Jesus is the likened to the serpent in the wilderness (Num. 21) who must “be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal” (vs. 14, 15).

In John 4, Jesus is the living water, that “whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life” (v. 14).

In John 5, Jesus is the Divine Son of God “making himself equal with God”, and the prophesied Messiah (vs. 18, 39).

In John 6, Jesus is the bread of God “which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” “..that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (vs. 35,40). This bread is called His flesh, “which I will give for the life of the world” (v. 51). And as He is the “living bread,” and “the life of the flesh is in the blood,” so the soon to be crucified Christ is metaphorical bread and blood.

In John 10, Jesus is “the door of the sheep,”, and the good shepherd [who] giveth his life for the sheep”, “that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” vs. 7, 10, 11).

In John 12, He is the LORD who Isaiah saw high and lifted up in glory, when Isaiah uttered the prophecy which as given in it’s fulfilled sense in Jn. 6 (Is. 6:1-10; Jn. 12:34b-50). To God be the glory.

In John 15, Jesus is the true vine. Thus the use of metaphors in Jn. 6 to denote believing and living by the Word of God, and most essentially Christ, is consistent theologically, culturally and and grammatically, whereas eating something to gain eternal life is pagan. And Jesus analogy in Jn. 6 was not to the passover, but the miraculous bread from Heaven, which gave physical life, which corresponds to spiritual life under the New Covenant.

In addition, see post http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2973260/posts?page=45#45 above, and here http://www.peacebyjesus.net/the_lord%27s_supper.html#Exegesis


49 posted on 12/29/2012 10:02:13 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Salvation

And many of us wonder, in your own words what do kind and degree of assurance do these stamps provide to you?

I will take my answer in the AM. Thanks


50 posted on 12/29/2012 10:03:56 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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