Christ in the Eucharist (Ecumenical)

Catholic.com ^

[daniel1212]

Thank you. And the Lord, “For in many things we offend all.” (Ja. 3:2)

[narses]

1 Corinthians 10

14
Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols.
15
I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say.
16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
17
Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.
18
Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?
19
What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?
20
No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons.
21
You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

[Jvette]

Not superficial at all.

The OT is not the NT and what happened in the OT is but a foretaste of what was to come in Jesus.

The Word did indeed exist from all eternity, but the flesh of Jesus did not exist until His conception.

Also, Jesus never says He eats of the Father’s flesh. That would be impossible as the Father has no flesh. What He said was that He had meat you know not of. Or in the KJV version, food to eat that you know not of.

Further, there is nothing in Catholic teaching that says that souls are dead until they consume the body of Christ. The soul is immortal, the life of which Christ speaks is life in the Kingdom of God.

Literalism is not an all or nothing concept concerning Scripture. Both extremes, rejecting all literalism or taking every passage literally has been used to divide Christ’s church.

[Religion Moderator]

More leeway is given to the article on “ecumenical” Religion Forum thread than to the reply posts.

[daniel1212]

Jesus never says He eats of the Father’s flesh. That would be impossible as the Father has no flesh. What He said was that He had meat you know not of. .

That it was impossible is my point, but Jesus said,

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. " (John 6:57)

So we "live" as Jesus did, and which was by believing and doing the word of God, as that was His "bread and butter."

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. " (Matthew 4:4)

"Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. " (John 4:34)

Further, there is nothing in Catholic teaching that says that souls are dead until they consume the body of Christ. The soul is immortal, the life of which Christ speaks is life in the Kingdom of God.

Rome teaches that it is the seed of eternal life and often RCs argue for their wafer on the basis of Jn. 6:53, that it is necessary to have life in you, making no qualifications as you cannot, for it means it is necessity to "eat" the bread Jesus gives in order to have life and to live for Him.

However, we do not see souls being born again or constantly exhorted to live by consuming the Lord physically, but they were born again when they heard and believed the gospel message, (Eph. 1:13) and the word of God effectually worked in those who believed, (1Ths. 2:13) effecting obedience. Thus the priority of the apostles in preaching, so that it was "not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables." (Acts 6:2)

If the Eucharist was what Rome says it is, and critical to have life in you and to receive grace, it would often be mentioned at least in the letters to the churches. However, despite the paramount priority Rome places on The Lord's supper, it not a manifest subject in any of the epistles to the church, except the description of it as "feasts of charity' in Jude 1:12, and in 1Cor. 11, and which definitely does not teach that the elements are the Lord's body .

This conspicuous absence is set in contrast to the many exhortations to live by believing the gospel and live by the word as in acting it out in service to others. And which corresponds to how Jesus lived and died, and which believers commemorated in their "feasts of charity," which was not that of focus on a wafer, but a communal meal of sharing. Literalism is not an all or nothing concept concerning Scripture. Both extremes, rejecting all literalism or taking every passage literally has been used to divide Christ’s church

Indeed, literalism is not an all or nothing concept concerning Scripture, but that it must be taken literally here is the RC argument, but which is overall contrary to what Scripture says, and John's method of teaching.

[Salvation]

Christ in the Eucharist (Ecumenical)
Canon Law and Consecrating the Eucharist (Catholic Caucus)
COMMUNION THROUGH A FEEDING TUBE (And More on Confirmations)
The Eucharist -- John 6
Catholicism and Fundamentalism — The Eucharist
On the Giving and Receiving of Holy Communion: Some norms to recall [Catholic Caucus]
Catholic Word of the Day: HOLY COMMUNION, 05-19-12
Following the Truth: Recognizing Jesus In The Eucharist [Catholic Caucus]
The Fourth Cup
The Last Supper and the Forgiveness of Sins
Bread from Heaven: The Eucharist Sustains Us and Lifts Us Up [Catholic Caucus]
Essays for Lent: The Eucharist
Essays for Lent: The Mass
Excerpt from: The Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Divorced Catholics and the Eucharist
Following The Truth: So, You Just Received Jesus…Now What? (Catholic or Open)
The Coptic Orthodox doctrine of the Eucharistic sacrifice

Auxiliary Bishop Says Communion In the Hand is a Calvinist Novelty [Ecumenical]
How Something We Consider Solidly Traditional was Once Thought Progressive (Catholic)
Transubstantiation: Change We Can Believe In
Diocese limits Communion under both kinds, laments excessive extraordinary ministers
Phoenix Diocese to adopt new norms for Holy Communion [Catholic Caucus]
What Does GIRM 160 for the USA Really Say?
Lift the City - a Catholic Eucharistic flash mob (Catholic Caucus)
Justin Martyr: 1st apology: Sacraments, Eucharist {Catholic/Orthodox caucus}
The Institution of the Eucharist in Scripture [Catholic Caucus]
How the Mass is a sacrifice, and why so many deny this doctrine (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
[Ecumenical] Lent through Eastertide - Divine Mercy Diary Exerpts: Holy Communion and the Eucharist
Vatican consultant responds to Cardinal Mahoney ‘Christ gave Judas communion’ argument
New book connects the Eucharist with its Jewish roots
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST (sections 3 only) {Ecumenical Thread}
THE SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST (sections 1&2 only) {Ecumenical Thread}
The Perfect Sacrifice: When Heaven Comes to Earth [Catholic Caucus]
The Real Presence [Church Fathers on the Holy Eucharist, cont'd ]
Is the Mass a Sacrifice? (Once and for all, Heb 9-10) {Catholic/Orthodox Caucus}
Radio Replies Second Volume - Holy Communion
The Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist {Catholic/Orthodox Caucus}

Radio Replies Second Volume - The Sacrifice of the Mass
Radio Replies Second Volume - Holy Eucharist
How Do We Prepare Well for the Coming of the Lord
Thanksgiving, the Prophets and the Eucharist
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] The Pope of a Eucharistic Springtime
Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi, Lex Vivendi. As we Worship, So we Believe, So we Live
[CATHOLIC/ORTHODOX CAUCUS] 5th Luminous Mystery: Institution of the Eucharist (Patristic Rosary)
Wounded in the house of them that loved Me
[CATHOLIC / ORTHODOX CAUCUS] Eucharist is Jesus' greatest gift to us, teaches Pope Benedict XVI
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] What makes Jesus present in the Eucharist: broadening one's view.
The Catholic Mass in 155 A.D.
Pope's Q--A at End of Priestly Year Pt 4 "We Celebrate,..Meditate..on Eucharist" [Catholic Caucus]
Sacrifice, Transubstantiation, and Real Presence (Pope Benedict XVI) [Catholic Caucus]
Catholic Caucus: Eucharist is the Heart of God
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS]'Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity': The Miracle and Gift of the Most Holy Eucharist
A Secular Eucharist
Paul and the Eucharist
Centered in the Eucharist
Centered in the Eucharist
Who Can Receive Communion? (Catholic Caucus)

Respect For Christ In The Eucharist – One Priest’s Perspective
From The Gospel To Life: The Disciples and the Eucharist
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: Opportunities of Grace: The Eucharist: The Lord's Supper
THE PRIEST IN THE COMMUNION RITES - Liturgy Prepares for Reception of the Eucharist
Novena with Saint Peter Julian Eymard for Prayer in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament [Prayer]
Boston Cardinal: Church Needs 'Clear' Injunction Denying Pro-Abortion Pols Communion
Benedict XVI calls priests to protect communion between God and man
Eucharist: Holy Sacrifice
Fr. Men: The Eucharist [Cath-Orth caucus]
Catholics in Costa Rica outraged by disrespect toward Eucharist [Catholic Caucus]
The Institution of the Eucharist in Scripture
St Anthony and the Real Presence
The Essentials of the Catholic Faith, Part Two: Channels of Grace: The Eucharist
EWTN - October 29 - 8PM - Fr. Antoine and the Eucharist
All Should Offer Their Bodies and Blood at Mass (Father Cantalamessa) [Catholic Caucus]
The Role of the Bishop of Rome in the Communion of the Church in the First Millennium
Radio Replies First Volume - Holy Eucharist
The Institution of the Eucharist in Scripture
Catholic Caucus: The Spiritual Combat Ch 54. MANNER IN WHICH WE OUGHT TO RECEIVE...BLESSED SACRAMENT
Catholic Caucus: The Spiritual Combat: Ch 53. CONCERNING THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST

A Few Texts From Saint Cyril of Jerusalem on the Eucharist
Catholic Devotional: On Visiting Jesus Christ In the Blessed Sacrament
The Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
Focus on the Real Presence
A Chinese Girl-True Story That Inspired Bishop Fulton Sheen- Eucharist Adoration (Catholic Caucus)
Doubting Thomases(Eucharist); the Pitfalls of Folly(Catholic Caucus)
Rainbow sash-wearers prohibited from receiving [the Eucharist at Cathedral of St. Paul]
The significance of Holy Thursday (institution of the Eucharist and priesthood)
Our Lady of the Most Blessed Sacrament [Catholic Caucus]
The Catechism of St. Thomas Aquinas THE HOLY EUCHARIST
Holy Communion and Non-Catholics (with a Quiz!)
Beginning Catholic: The Eucharist: In the Presence of the Lord Himself [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Receiving the Lord in Holy Communion [Ecumenical]
Faithful Invited to Follow Pope, Adore Eucharist [Catholic Caucus]
Christmas and the Eucharist(Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Eucharist kneeling request sparks controversy [Catholic Caucus]
Eucharist vs. the Word (which is more important in the Catholic Church)
Christ the Miracle Worker in the Eucharist(Catholic Caucus)
Imitating Christ in the Eucharist(Catholic Caucus)
The Eucharist - the Lord's Sacrifice, Banquet and Presence (OPEN)

Pope Calls Eucharist History's Greatest Revolution [OPEN]
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 22: The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist (Holy Communion)
A series of reflections from St. Peter Julian Eymard Blessed Sacrament(Catholic Caucus)
Eucharist, Holy Meal
Imitating Christ in the Eucharist
Christmas and the Eucharist
Prayer Before the Blessed Sacrament
This is My Body, This is My Blood
THE HOLY EUCHARIST IS THE WHOLE CHRIST
Gift Of Life, Gift Eternal: The Most Holy Eucharist and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
Area worshipers march to celebrate Holy Eucharist
Grace of the Eucharist is secret to holy priests, says Pope
The Disposition of Priests [Valid Mass, Valid Holy Eucharist?]
The Body of Christ?
Holy Sacrifice, Living Sacrament
Knights of the Eucharist
The Banquet of Corpus Christi - "Why did Jesus give us His Body and Blood?"
The Eucharist: Eternity and Time Together
Restored Order of the Sacraments of Initiation? Confirmation and First Eucharist together? (Vanity)
Reflections of Cardinal Ratzinger on the Eucharist

THE HOLY EUCHARIST: NOURISHMENT TO FINISH OUR COURSE
The Eucharist in Scripture - Part 1 - Old Testament
LITANY OF REPARATION TO OUR LORD IN THE BLESSED SACRAMENT
Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament
POPE GRANTS PLENARY INDULGENCE FOR YEAR OF THE EUCHARIST
New Plenary Indulgence to Mark Year of the Eucharist
Kneeling and Faith in the Eucharist
The Immaculate Conception and the Eucharist, a course in Christian culture in Tashkent
The Year of the Eucharist by Bishop Donald Wuerl
"While We're At It": What can we do to show that the Eucharist is a communal activity?
CATHOLICS AND BAPTISTS WITNESSED UNUSUAL IMAGES IN BLESSED SACRAMENT
The Discipline of the Eucharist Holy See Releases Redemptionis Sacramentum...
Vatican: Matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist (April 23, 2004)
Devotion to the Holy Eucharist Advances Devotion to Jesus' Person
New rules on the Holy Eucharist on Holy Thursday
The Reverence due to the Holy Eucharist
The Holy Face of Jesus Christ as appeared on the Holy Eucharist
The Fourth Cup: The Sacrament of the Eucharist [Holy Thursday] [Passover]
Holy Father stresses Need of Devotion to Holy Eucharist outside of Mass: Pope Paul VI

[Salvation]

Are you saying that at the Last Supper when Christ blessed the bread, broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this is my Body which will be given up for you."

And --

In a similar way, when supper was ended, he took the chalice, and giving you thanks, he said the blessings, and gave the chalice yto his disciples, saying: "Take this, all of you, and drink from it, for this is the chalice of my Blood, the blood of the new and eternal covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many for the forgiveness of sins. Do this in memory of me."

So are you saying that Christ was not telling the truth?

[Salvation]

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

[daniel1212]

Obviously, you are either have a superficial understanding of Biblical and even everyday language, or you are purposely presenting a specious argument as you must defend Rome as being correct.

>”Are you saying that at the Last Supper when Christ blessed the bread, broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take this, all of you, and eat of it, for this is my Body which will be given up for you.”<

Your argument assumes that the truth here must be a literal consumption of the Lord’s body (to kosher Jews who simply assented to eating blood, and Jesus eat his own body), based on the premise that eating and drinking must be literal, but which what needs to be proved.

If you had begun at the beginning of this thread i would not have to do this, but let me illustrate your logical fallacy,

Are you saying that when David said,

“Be it far from me, O LORD, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it,” (see 2Sam. 23:15-17) that he was not telling the truth, that the water was in fact blood? He calls it blood, and nothing here denies it, and being a lawful Jew he poured out the blood, which is what priests and the Israelites did with blood.

Or that that a literal meaning is not allowed when it says the Promised Land was “a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof.”

And that the people of the land “are bread for us.” (Num. 13:32; 14:9

And (consistent with words being eaten) when Jeremiah proclaims, “Your words were found and I did eat them.” (Jer. 15:16) then a literal consumption must be meant?

Likewise when Ezekiel is told, “eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel.” (Ezek. 3:1)

And when John is commanded, “Take the scroll ... Take it and eat it.” (Rev. 10:8-9)

And rather than John introducing gaining life by eating, instead believing the gospel is how souls were made alive.

And thus use of metaphor is entirely consistent with John.

In John 1:29, He is “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

In John 3, Jesus is the likened to the serpent in the wilderness (Num. 21) who must “be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal” (vs. 14, 15).

In John 4, Jesus is the living water, that “whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life” (v. 14).

In John 5, Jesus is the Divine Son of God “making himself equal with God”, and the prophesied Messiah (vs. 18, 39).

In John 6, Jesus is the bread of God “which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” “..that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (vs. 35,40). This bread is called His flesh, “which I will give for the life of the world” (v. 51). And as He is the “living bread,” and “the life of the flesh is in the blood,” so the soon to be crucified Christ is metaphorical bread and blood.

In John 10, Jesus is “the door of the sheep,”, and the good shepherd [who] giveth his life for the sheep”, “that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” vs. 7, 10, 11).

In John 12, He is the LORD who Isaiah saw high and lifted up in glory, when Isaiah uttered the prophecy which as given in it’s fulfilled sense in Jn. 6 (Is. 6:1-10; Jn. 12:34b-50). To God be the glory.

In John 15, Jesus is the true vine. Thus the use of metaphors in Jn. 6 to denote believing and living by the Word of God, and most essentially Christ, is consistent theologically, culturally and and grammatically, whereas eating something to gain eternal life is pagan. And Jesus analogy in Jn. 6 was not to the passover, but the miraculous bread from Heaven, which gave physical life, which corresponds to spiritual life under the New Covenant.

In addition, see post http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2973260/posts?page=45#45 above, and here http://www.peacebyjesus.net/the_lord%27s_supper.html#Exegesis

[daniel1212]

And many of us wonder, in your own words what do kind and degree of assurance do these stamps provide to you?

I will take my answer in the AM. Thanks

[Salvation]

I don’t understand why non-Catholics who take the Bible so literally in other senses, do not take the passage about the Last Supper and the Institution literally.

Perhaps you can explan that??

If non-Catholics are sola scriptura believers, then wouldn’t they believe this Scripture?

[blackpacific]

Unfortunately trying to wrestle the true meaning of the Eucharist from the Sacred Scriptures can be no different for a Catholic than it is for a protestant. Personal interpretation cannot be the starting point, as it is fallible. Through the eyes of Faith the signification and consignification found in the Sacred Scriptures becomes most evident, and the theological works of the Early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church form an organic whole. I would hope that some might take the time to read the resources you post, but any conversion of heart would have to be a work of Grace, a gift of God. I’m not sure that arguing with a fellow Christian with one scriptural interpretation after another will effect any positive change.

“How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Gospel of peace.”

In the Byzantine liturgy, the post Communion hymn reminds us that: “We have seen the True Light, we have received the Heavenly Spirit, we have found the True Faith, and we worship the undivided Trinity, for the Trinity hath saved us.”

[johngrace]

http://www.fisheaters.com/fathersoneucharist.html

[johngrace]

http://www.fisheaters.com/mass.html

[johngrace]

http://www.fisheaters.com/orderofmelchisedech.html

[HarleyD]

This question is at the very heart of the difference between Catholics and Protestants.

Indeed. I would suggest other parts of John 6 are more of the heart of the difference between Catholics and Protestants:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

....

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[daniel1212]

I don’t understand why non-Catholics who take the Bible so literally in other senses, do not take the passage about the Last Supper and the Institution literally. Perhaps you can explan that??

Go read my posts in this thread including to you, and my link to more, and interact with that rather than avoiding the answer by parroting a defeated polemic which has been exposed, with your false concept of taking the Bible "so literally."

And that it is Rome that engages in reducing literal events to allegory. But just as Catholics evidence they are unwilling to engage in objectively analysis of Scripture, and only seeks to use it to support traditions of men, you fail to interact with the weight of the evidence against your use of the literal hermeneutic you demand here.

And you also failed to answer my question to you in post #50.

[narses]

Thanks for the Pearls!

[NKP_Vet]

“If non-Catholics are sola scriptura believers, then wouldn’t they believe this Scripture?”

Because the Jimmy Swaggart crowd say Catholics are not Christians and had nothing at all to with the early Church, and the church fathers were more protestant than Catholic. They give the Catholic Church credit for nothing. They put Catholics in the same league as Mormans and Johovva Witnesses, all preaching a false doctrine. We are all going to hell except Jimmy Swaggart and his ilk.

[Iscool]

absolutely hilarious that 2000 years removed from THOSE WHO LIVED IT, WALKED AND TALKED with the apostles and church fathers, laid the foundations of the church, and learned through Sacred traditions of the teaching church, about the REAL PRESENCE, that folks can sit here on this board and others with their edited kjv and pretend to know more than those who were there...

The only historical figure with any record who walked and talked with the apostles was Polycarp...And he is as Protestant as they come...

No one as of yet has provided the traditions outside of the scriptures that was provided by the Apostles...Still waitin', after 2000 years...