The Rapture Will Not Occur Until the Saints Have Gone Through the Tribulation (vanity)

I cannot believe I never caught this before as I've been reading the Bible most of my life and have been listening to evangelists, preachers, etc for almost as long. (50+ years)

I started reading in the Song of Solomon last night, but ended up in the Book of Revelation. Here's the quote from Revelation, Chapter 14:

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

See verse 12? This statement is made more than once in Revelation. So I was rather unnerved and went to the Scripture that spoke of the Last Trumpet--I Corinthians 15 (NASB) Also in Revelation 13:10. If the saints are already "raptured" then why is their patient endurance required? Answer: They are not "raptured," they are still on the earth dealing with the antichrist.

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Then I flip back to Revelation and count to the Last Trumpet--The Seventh Trumpet (or when the Seventh Angel Blows the Trumpet)--Revelation 11.

15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

What is weird is that I never tied the scriptures together before. Am I missing something? I see no where that is says we are to be rescued prior to the antichrist taking over.

Maybe someone else sees it, but IMHO there is no Rapture prior to the Tribulation, the Rapture IS the Coming of the Lord.

Paul said:

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2:1-5)

"While I was still with you" was 1 Thessalonians. Can you post the Scripture where Paul, anywhere in 1 Thessalonians, tells the Thessalonians that the "apostasy" refers to "a rebellion against God led by the Antichrist during the tribulation"?

If the Holy Spirit agrees with you, you should have no problem finding the Biblical proof. So, post the Scripture from 1 Thessalonians where Paul said anything about the "apostasy" being a rebellion against God led by the Antichrist.

It is you who established the criteria that since the word "rapture" isn't in your particular translation of Scripture (even though the Latin version of that very word is in the Latin Vulgate), then the Holy Spirit- inspired Biblical doctrine of an event where Jesus Christ will leave Heaven and catch those who know Him as Savior up, as He puts it, "in the clouds", where those people will be with Him forever is false, then the fact that the word "Bible" is nowhere in any Bible must mean that the Bible doesn't exist. This is why it is important to think things out before you post them.

Is the following true or false?

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

Did the Holy Spirit lie to us in that passage or was He telling the truth?

Thanks Iscool- I woudl readily agree with what you sai- howver, there’s still a bit of uncertainty because of how the verses are written- It woudl be a lot clearer if there was just a verse that only mentioend God’s wrath coming to anyoen who only receives the mark of the beast- but the mention of the mark seems to always be coupled with ‘worship of’ the beast too and it appears that the two acts must go hand in hand, if hte verse only mentioend the wrath of God falling on anyone who receives mark, it woudl be beyond dispute, or question especially if it specifically stated ‘received the mark for any reason’- then there coudl be no question at all abotu hwat the verses mean-

[[as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.]]

Which woudl be incentive for folks to fake the worship I woudl think (if it’s possible to simply fake the worship- perhaps it own’t be and the antiChrist or beast will be able to ‘see into the soul’ as it were and know when someone was faking- who knows-

I’ll have ot read through the rest tonight- but you bring up some good points

[[There won’t be any Christians there...]]

[[2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, ]]

Seems to indicate that soem might infact beleive thwe truth- Personally I think some may be saved durign hte trib- I can’t say for certain- but if they can be, it’s goign to be really tough for them as they know they will be persecuted and probably executed- If it’s popssibel soem might be saved during trib, perhaps it’ll be people who were unsaved but didn’t take mark- who knows-

It is you who established the criteria that since the word “rapture” isn’t in your particular translation of Scripture

That has nothing to do with the word bible not being in the Bible

even though the Latin version of that very word is in the Latin Vulgate),

Are you admitting that the word is not there but only a meaning of it?

Is the following true or false?

It is true and explained in 1 cor 15

As i said read cor 15 and it is explained that you can not be changed with out dieing and you can not be raised up with out being changed because flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God.

Is the following true or is ir a lie?

1 Corinthians 15
22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

15:36
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

Cor 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So the Holy Spirit tells us in 1 Thessalonians that there will be a group of people who will be taken, alive, into Heaven and you say

"As i said read cor 15 and it is explained that you can not be changed with out dieing and you can not be raised up with out being changed because flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God."

Thanks for admitting that you think that there are parts of Scripture where God simply does not tell the truth.

What other Scriptures do you believe are lies?

I see you left out 2 Thess. 2:4, take note, it isn’t in 1 Thessalonians either. Yet, according to you, Paul should have included it among these things: “when I was yet with you, I told you these things,” he said.

Which simply means Paul did in fact teach the Thessalonians what we see in 2 Thess. 2:3, but it wasn’t just your verse three, it included what wee see in VERSE FOUR ALSO. For whatever reason he did not want to deal with these things in his first letter to the Thessalonians.

Trying to divert the issue in another direction won’t work. Lets stay with the issue. My point was, your claim that apostasy means a pretrib rapture, yet the context, per my post to you, says something quite different. You did not address that at all.

Apostasy really means apostasy, defection/departure, whether religious or political. Paul quotes extensively from the LXX, the Greek OT, he would have been thoroughly familiar with apostasia as it, and its cognate forms, are used over forty times in the LXX - EVERY TIME WITH THE MEANING OF RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL DEFECTION.

Pretribs jump through hoops trying to evade the truth, the attempt to make apostasia mean the pretrib rapture is the most disingenuous of all.

But you really did.

God said that there would be a time when a group of people would be taken to heaven alive, without dying, and you said that event would never happen.

I'll post again what you said:

""As i said read cor 15 and it is explained that you can not be changed with out dieing and you can not be raised up with out being changed because flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God."

So God said one thing and you denied that by saying that what God said will happen will not. My inquiry as to what other Scriptures you consider to be less than true was completely legitimate.

Yes, let's stay with the issue and not try to divert attention away from what Paul said, that Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

So as we can see, the problem you have here is that Paul tells the Thessalonians to refer back to when he was talking to them about the "apostasy" when he was with them before. He was with them before, before they got a letter telling them that the "day of the Lord" had already come, and he reminds them of what he had told them when he was still with them.

So like it or not, we're going to have to refer back to when Paul was with the Thessalonians before, when he told them about the "day of the Lord" before, which takes us back to 1 Thessalonians, which is the time when Paul told them about "these things", aka "the day of the Lord". We won't let ourselves get diverted by a simple description of the Antichrist and the fact that he will commit the abomination of desolation and nothing more that Paul throws in in verse 5. We need to see what he said when he was with them before.

Where are the verses in 1 Thessalonians, when Paul was with the Thessalonians before he had to deal with the same issue in 2 Thessalonians, when Paul said that the "apostasy" was in reference to a rebellion against God led by the Antichrist?

This time leave out diversionary verses like descriptions of the Antichrist and the abomination of desolation. I need the Scripture in 1 Thessalonians where Paul told the Thessalonians that the "apostasy" was a rebellion against God led by the Antichrist.

But you really did.

God said that there would be a time when a group of people would be taken to heaven alive, without dying, and you said that event would never happen.

First, here is my answer to your question.

Question0 Is the following true or false?

Answer)It is true and explained in 1 cor 15

There you can see that i did not say that i thought God lied

So, you assume that God said that, i just deny that God said that, (and if i am wrong then that will be my problem) you do not have any scripture that state it in those words.

I gave you the exact words that tells us that we can not enter the kingdom of God in our flesh and blood bodies and this scriptue comes from the same Apostle that you believe is saying that you will be taken up to God with out dieing.

The scripture you gave does make it appear that some people can go to Gods kingdom with out dieing, but it does not say that in those words.

Would it make sense to consider 1 cor 15 a little more?

At any rate i was sorry that i called you a liar the instant i clicked the button.

It is a bad wittness in my case as well as yours, we need to just limit our disagreements to scripture.

Myself who believes i have been forgiven for all of the stupid things i have done and look forwart to being resurected the moment i die.

And you who hopes to be taken up alive.

The ironry here could be that the people here now have already missed it and are just waiting for the wrath of God and not even aware of it, hope not.

OK just so I understand you clearly - the Holy Spirit inspired doctrine of the Rapture, where we are told that Jesus Christ will come and take those "in Christ" to meet Him "in the clouds" and afterward, as we are told, those in Christ who have been harpazo(ed), or "raptured" will be taken with Christ to be with Him forever is an inerrant, true and factual event that has never in the history of the world come to pass but will at some point because God said it will.

Am I understanding your position correctly?

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If this was the only scripture that mentioned the lords gathering of the believers i would wonder if God was really going to take us alive to his kingdom.

I would wonder how it could happen but i would have no explanation of how it was going to take place.

Since i believe it to be the inspired word of God i believe it to be true so there is nothing i could say.

But there is a whole chapter concerning this very thing that tells exactly how it will take place, it is not denying
1 Thessalonians 4:17 but only explaining it.

This is my only position, i am not denying any thing, i just believe cor 15 explains the lords gathering of the believers, if it does not fit in with what many people believe one verse of scripture is saying then the argument should be with Paul and not me as i am only putting down exactly what paul wrote.

Based on what you wrote:

"As i said read cor 15 and it is explained that you can not be changed with out dieing and you can not be raised up with out being changed because flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God. As i said read cor 15 and it is explained that you can not be changed with out dieing and you can not be raised up with out being changed because flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God".

Which was in response to RaceBannon's post 44 where he correctly stated that any theology that denies the rapture is denying the Bible. You then asked where the word "rapture" is in the Bible then responded to my post 61 with this:

"If rapture means resurection i have no problem with that, but being raised in the phyical body with out dieing is against every thing paul said in 1 cor 15."

And as we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 God says that there will indeed be a particular group of people who are "raised" to meet Jesus Christ in the air, however, based on your reply above, you feel that that Scripture contradicts 1 Corinthians 15.

How, exactly does 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 contradict 1 Corinthians 15?

I need the Scripture in 1 Thessalonians where Paul told the Thessalonians that the "apostasy" was a rebellion against God led by the Antichrist.

The scripture you need is right there with the scripture where Paul told the Thessalonians about the man of sin sitting in the temple shewing himself as god. What? It isn't there? Since it isn't there, it defeats your little diversion attempt.

Justin Martyr, who knew Greek better than these pretrib scholars you quote, called the antichrist THE MAN OF APOSTASY. Arising out of the apostasia, he is its chief representative, the epitome of it.

Face the truth, apostasy really means apostasy. Try removing your pretrib blinders for minute, and look around you, the apostasy, or falling away, is all around us. It must happen first, before the man of apostasy can come on the scene.

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