The Rapture Will Not Occur Until the Saints Have Gone Through the Tribulation (vanity)

I cannot believe I never caught this before as I've been reading the Bible most of my life and have been listening to evangelists, preachers, etc for almost as long. (50+ years)

I started reading in the Song of Solomon last night, but ended up in the Book of Revelation. Here's the quote from Revelation, Chapter 14:

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

See verse 12? This statement is made more than once in Revelation. So I was rather unnerved and went to the Scripture that spoke of the Last Trumpet--I Corinthians 15 (NASB) Also in Revelation 13:10. If the saints are already "raptured" then why is their patient endurance required? Answer: They are not "raptured," they are still on the earth dealing with the antichrist.

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Then I flip back to Revelation and count to the Last Trumpet--The Seventh Trumpet (or when the Seventh Angel Blows the Trumpet)--Revelation 11.

15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

What is weird is that I never tied the scriptures together before. Am I missing something? I see no where that is says we are to be rescued prior to the antichrist taking over.

Maybe someone else sees it, but IMHO there is no Rapture prior to the Tribulation, the Rapture IS the Coming of the Lord.

spacejunkie, post one verse of Scripture either you or sasportas has provided to prove that the rapture will happen after the Tribulation. Just one verse. I don't want to see "inferences", which translates into opinion, I want to see Scriptural passages which unequivocally and inarguably state that the rapture will occur after the Tribulation. Just one verse, spacejunkie. As long as neither of you can validate your doctrine with Scripture, it is false and it is demonic.

We can go on with this forever if you like. As long as you keep making the claim that the Scripture I have given that, without a doubt, shows that the Holy Spirit has written all throughout the Word that Jesus Christ will get His bride before He judges this world is false without providing anything that contradicts that, you both will continue to get called on your false doctrine and the light will continue to shine on the fact that there is not one verse of Scripture in the entire Bible that supports your false doctrine and mythology of a post-Trib rapture.

Like I said, this can go on forever. Do you really want to continue having the spotlight shown on the fact that you have a belief that contradicts God?

Here’s the exact scripture where Jesus said it, a favorite of yours:

Upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. (Matthew 16:18)

He said this a few chapters after he gave the parable of the wheat and the tares...in which he depicted his believers on earth until the end of the world (which would include the tribulation). Therefore, his statement in Matt. 16:18, since up to that point he had said nothing about an additional coming before the end of the world, meant the church would be here until the rapture at the end of the tribulation, the gates of hell not overpowering it.

This thread has gotten quite old, we are beating a dead horse, this is my last post on this thread. See you later, alligator.

Can't have it both ways, sasportas. And you can't try to twist the Scripture into what you wish it meant instead of what it actually means.

When Jesus said:

Upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

that means that the following Scripture doesn't apply to the church since the Antichrist is indwelt by Satan and therefore, according to Jesus Christ, cannot overpower the church:

It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. (Revelation 13:7)

The Antichrist can't overpower the church, therefore the saints that he is given power to overcome during the Tribulation are not the church. Simple as that. You either believe God or you do not.

Therefore, his statement in Matt. 16:18, since up to that point he had said nothing about an additional coming before the end of the world, meant the church would be here until the rapture at the end of the tribulation, the gates of hell not overpowering it.

Okay, so using your "logic", because the Holy Spirit did not mention Jesus' first coming up until Genesis 3:15, He never came the first time. See how ridiculous you look when you absolutely refuse to accept the Scripture as God wrote it and will mangle and twist and deny and discard whatever part of God's word you have to to make your false doctrine work?

This thread has gotten quite old, we are beating a dead horse, this is my last post on this thread.

No, you're beating a dead horse. I've validated the Biblical teaching of the pre-Tribulation rapture beyond anyone's definition of reasonable. Your "dead horse" is your dead, false, demonic doctrine.

>>>‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 3:10)<<<

The Greek word for "testing" in this context means "temptation", or "trial," which is used 20 times in the New Testament, all with the same usage. An example would be Jesus being tempted by Satan. This is the context in the Revelation:

"Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie--I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth" (Rev 3:9-10)

It appears the Jews in the synagogue were tempting those in the Church in some manner: maybe to rejoin the synagogue. I really don't know how that word became so mistranslated.

Turn to similar passages in verses 2:9-10 and you have the word tribulation. The Greek word in this context means "persecution, trouble, anguish, suffering or affliction." It is used 42 times in the New Testament with those definitions:

"I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." (Rev 2:9-10)

That is a much different situation than in chapter 3. These were at risk of being killed. We have a slightly similar situation in that these are also being troubled by a local synagogue. But in this case, the Jews are trying to imprison or kill them, as they did to so many of the early Christians. In the Revelation you can find this context in 1:9, 2:9-10, 2:22, and 7:14.

Philip

>>>Didn’t Paul say, “we which are alive and remain?” (shall be caught up with those who had been martyred, the dead in Christ, in the rapture, 1 Thess. 4)<<<

Note Paul's words indicate he is expecting to maybe be alive at the resurrection. All the disciples and apostles, including Paul, expected to be resurrected in their lifetimes. The reason was because Jesus said he was coming in their generation; and he said it in many ways, on many occasions.

Daniel wrote of what appeared to be a partial resurrection, of only his people (Israel):

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."(Daniel 12:1-2)

Note not all, but many are resurrected. If every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess before Christ, what about the others? When will they be resurrected?

Philip

My goodness, this thread has lain dormant for a full year, and now you hit us with this preterist-amillennialist off-the-rails stuff. You won’t accept it, of course, but a natural reading of Rev. 20, without reading into it your theory, answers your points.

1. The martyrs of the tribulation, who did not take the mark of the beast, nor worship his image, are shown to be in the first resurrection. Convolute if you will, but there is no way you can force fit all the events of Revelation chapters 6-19, with all its details, its mark and image of the beast, etc., into the 70 AD generation.

2. Rev. 20 separates the apparent general resurrection you see in Dan. 12 into before and after the millennial events. I’ll take the apostle John’s revelation of two resurrections over your humanist revelation any day, thank you.

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