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Catholicity and Calvinism--Or Why Calvinism isn't a Dirty Word
Virtue Online ^ | Jan, 5, 2013 | The V. Rev. Robert Munday

Posted on 01/17/2013 3:11:16 PM PST by Alex Murphy

Those who know me well know my penchant for Great Tradition theology, by which I mean that we need to recover true catholicity, the faith of the early, undivided Church. I believe that the methodology that best gets us there is an embrace of the Vincentian Canon, the product of St. Vincent of Lerins (died c. AD 445). It is tempting to want to reproduce all four paragraphs of this Canon, which come from Chapter 4 of the Vincent's Commonitorium, and I encourage you to click on the link and read the four fairly short paragraphs, because a great many errors in the Church could be avoided if we utilized this theological method.

However, in the interest of not straying too far from my intended topic I will only quote paragraph three, which focuses specifically on theological method:
(3) Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly 'Catholic,' as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality [i.e. oecumenicity], antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike.
Universality, antiquity, and consent, these are our criteria for discerning the Catholic faith, the essential faith of the undivided church, the Great Tradition in Theology as I prefer to call it.

So many folks I speak with who consider themselves to be Catholic really don't have a grasp of theology that is Catholic (in the Vincentian sense) at all. They have paddled their canoes up a narrow inlet and, fascinated with all the flora and fauna they find there, think they are in the only body of water on earth that matters. Meanwhile a whole ocean of theology lies unseen and unexplored. By this I don't mean exploring theological innovations and heresies (far from it!). I am speaking of the vast number of tributaries that flow into the whole body of theological orthodoxy--the Great Tradition, vast and rich--left unexplored by those who think their little bayou is all there is to the Catholic faith.

What brought this topic to mind is the remembrance of comments I made in response to a piece by David Ould on the Stand Firm website last year, entitled, Reformation Day. Every Year. Every Day. I will modify my comments somewhat to make them more relevant to my topic here. But, in response to Ould's commendation of Reformation Day (October 30) I was moved to say:

I can’t count how many people I have had conversations with in recent months who are dismissive of the Reformers and the Reformation—and I am talking about Anglican leaders, even in the Anglican Church in North America. While some of these same folks make fun of the resolution that was proposed (in 2011) at the Convention of the Episcopal diocese of Atlanta to reinstate Pelagius as “a viable theological voice within our tradition,” many of these Anglican leaders do not realize that their own disdain for Calvin really amounts to a rejection of St. Augustine, and their disregard for important Reformation truths really amounts to an unthinking embrace of the very Arminianism, Semi-Pelagianism, and Pelagianism that they are ridiculing Episcopal liberals for resurrecting.

R.C. Sproul gets at the heart of the matter when he says:
“Humanism, in all its subtle forms, recapitulates the unvarnished Pelagianism against which Augustine struggled. Though Pelagius was condemned as a heretic by Rome, and its modified form, Semi-Pelagianism was likewise condemned by the Council of Orange in 529, the basic assumptions of this view persisted throughout church history to reappear in Medieval Catholicism, Renaissance Humanism, Socinianism, Arminianism, and modern Liberalism.”
In response to my comment, Stand Firm Contributing Editor Matt Kennedy replied:
I think two years ago Metropolitan Jonah spoke at the ACNA general assembly, articulating the same flawed sentiments…John Calvin, he said, was a heretic. How such a proclamation could be lauded (as it was) at an orthodox Anglican gathering in which the 39 Articles are supposedly honored is beyond me. But there we are. Semper Reformanda!
In response to this I replied:

It was awkward when Metropolitan Jonah made his statement about Orthodoxy regarding Calvinism as a heresy at the inaugural ACNA Assembly. I have discussed this very matter with His Beatitude and I believe that his view is the result of two factors: (1) (and this is simply my own personal opinion) He was exposed to a lot of anti-Calvinistic prejudices as an Anglo-Catholic Anglican before he became Orthodox. (2) It is a matter of Eastern Orthodox history that Cyril Lucaris, who became the Greek Patriarch of Alexandria as Cyril III and Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople as Cyril I, taught Calvinistic views that, following his death, were condemned as heresy by an Orthodox Synod in Jerusalem in 1672. (For a lot of Orthodox, this settles the matter, and they aren’t willing even to discuss it.)

The background to all this is that Eastern Church was largely unaffected by the Augustine vs. Pelagius controversy and so they never really understood Augustine or the error he was trying to combat. The East was also largely unaffected by the scholasticism of the medieval and renaissance periods which produced doctrines in the Western Church which could only be combatted by a reappropriation of Augustine by the Reformers.

As a young theologian, in the late 1500’s, Cyril had studied in the West, and particularly in Geneva, where he came to appreciate fully the errors of the Roman Church and to embrace Calvinism as a necessary corrective.

So when Cyril tried to institute Calvinistic teaching in the East, it looked to them to be an innovation because they really had no context for understanding the teaching or why it was necessary. In my opinion, an Anglican-Orthodox dialogue on justification which considers these matters is an absolute necessity once relations have progressed to the point where such a dialogue is possible.

Let me say, parenthetically, that I love and respect (now former Metropolitan) Jonah and am thankful for the conversations we have had and that I hope we will still have in the future. I pray that God leads him to a place of many more years of continued fruitful ministry, even as this former seminary dean/president prays that for himself.

But this matter of the strain that comes through Augustine and Calvin as it pertains to soteriology being correct theology as opposed to the strain that comes through Pelagius and Arminius is a matter that we must resolve as we go forward. It is particularly crucial for what is to be the understanding of a renewed Anglicanism in North America and globally.

As a theologian who is concerned for catholicity, my effort has always been to discern and believe the Catholic faith of the undivided Church. And we ALL must strive to be Catholics, because in the words of the Athanasian Creed, “Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.”

So while I recognize that a Catholic theologian affirming Calvin and quoting R.C. Sproul (as I did above) may be jarring to some, I believe that a serious attempt to explore one’s own theology and to ground it in the Early Church Fathers and the Councils will lead one to recognize the extent to which Luther and Calvin (and the English Reformers and authors of the Articles of Religion) are simply reflecting Augustine in the whole matter of bondage of the will and the utter necessity of God’s grace for our salvation.

A crucial part of the Catholic faith is the acceptance of what the early Church did with regard to Augustine vs. Pelagius, which is recapitulated in the Reformers’ teaching on justification by faith roughly 1000 years later. Pelagius’ error consisted of (1) a failure to recognize the true condition of man subsequent to the Fall; and consequently, (2) a failure to recognize that right standing with God can only be imputed to us as the result of an external cause (God’s grace) and received by faith, rather than merited through our own choices and actions.

Although the Church upheld Augustine in his day, the same humanistic tendency to exalt the role we play with regard to our salvation continued to rear its head in the scholasticism of the late medieval and renaissance periods and influenced Church doctrine in the West so much that the Reformation became “a tragic necessity.” It continues in the mindset of modern and postmodern liberals and also, strangely enough, in the views of those who see catholicity as synonymous with Rome and who view the Reformation as a mistake.

I have elsewhere and in a number of places commended the theological method of the English Reformers, and it is appropriate to mention it here. For instance, if you read the works of Thomas Cranmer in the Parker Society reprints, Cranmer will state a doctrine of the Reformation, and then give a page or more of quotations from Scripture in defense of his point. He will then follow that with several pages of quotations from the Early Fathers to show that he is interpreting Scripture in a way that is consistent with the faith of the undivided Church. In my humble opinion, we should still do our theology that way.

In a precise illustration of that method one commenter on Stand Firm proceeded to list a plethora of quotations from the Early Fathers in support of the Reformation doctrine of justification by faith. It is indeed helpful to realize just how truly Catholic (in the Vincentian but, obviously, not the Tridentine sense) this teaching is and what an essential piece it is in Great Tradition theology, pertaining as it does to our salvation.

The following material is from "Rick P.," quoted without his permission; but since I don't know how to contact him, and since his comment was made on a public website, I reprint it here with link to the original comments, for purposes of attribution. I am very grateful for what he had to say:
The Reformers themselves (including Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and others) were convinced that their position was not only biblical, but also historical. In other words, they contended that both the apostles and the church fathers would have agreed with them on the heart of the gospel.

For example, the second-generation Lutheran reformer, Martin Chemnitz (1522-1586), wrote a treatise on justification in which he defended the Protestant position by extensively using the church fathers. And John Calvin (1509-1564), in his Institutes, similarly claimed that he could easily debunk his Roman Catholic opponents using nothing but patristic sources. Here’s what he wrote:

If the contest were to be determined by patristic authority, the tide of victory — to put it very modestly —would turn to our side. Now, these fathers have written many wise and excellent things. . . . [Yet] the good things that these fathers have written they [the Roman Catholics] either do not notice, or misrepresent or pervert. . . . But we do not despise them [the church fathers]; in fact, if it were to our present purpose, I could with no trouble at all prove that the greater part of what we are saying today meets their approval.
Source: John Calvin, “Prefatory Address to King Francis I of France,” The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Section 4.

How could the Reformers be so confident that their understanding of the gospel was consistent with the teachings of the ancient church? Or perhaps more to the point: What did the early church fathers have to say about the gospel of grace?

Here is an admittedly brief collection of 30 patristic quotes, centering on the reality that justification is by grace alone through faith alone. Many more could be provided. But I think you’ll be encouraged by this survey look at the gospel according to the church fathers.
(Even if you don’t read every quote, just take a moment to consider the fact that, long before Luther, the leaders of the ancient church were clearly proclaiming the gospel of grace through faith in Christ.)

1. Clement of Rome (30-100): “And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”
Source: Clement, First Epistle to the Corinthians, 32.4.

2. Epistle to Diognetus (second century): “He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! That the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors!”
Source: The Epistle to Diognetus, 9.2-5.

3. Justin Martyr (100-165) speaks of “those who repented, and who no longer were purified by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of an heifer, or by the offerings of fine flour, but by faith through the blood of Christ, and through His death.”
Source: Justin, Dialogue with Trypho, 13.

4. Origen (185-254): “For God is just, and therefore he could not justify the unjust. Therefore he required the intervention of a propitiator, so that by having faith in Him those who could not be justified by their own works might be justified.”
Source: Origen, Commentary on Romans, 2.112.

5. Origen (again): “A man is justified by faith. The works of the law can make no contribution to this. Where there is no faith which might justify the believer, even if there are works of the law these are not based on the foundation of faith. Even if they are good in themselves they cannot justify the one who does them, because faith is lacking, and faith is the mark of those who are justified by God.”
Source: Origen, Commentary on Romans, 2.136.

6. Hilary of Poitiers (300-368): “Wages cannot be considered as a gift, because they are due to work, but God has given free grace to all men by the justification of faith.”
Source: Hilary, Commentary on Matthew (on Matt. 20:7)

7. Hilary of Poitiers (again): “It disturbed the scribes that sin was forgiven by a man (for they considered that Jesus Christ was only a man) and that sin was forgiven by Him whereas the Law was not able to absolve it, since faith alone justifies.”
Source: Hilary, Commentary on Matthew (on Matt. 9:3)

8. Didymus the Blind (c. 313-398) “A person is saved by grace, not by works but by faith. There should be no doubt but that faith saves and then lives by doing its own works, so that the works which are added to salvation by faith are not those of the law but a different kind of thing altogether.”[31]
Source: Didymus the Blind. Commentary on James, 2:26b.

9. Basil of Caesarea (329-379): “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is justified solely by faith in Christ.”
Source: Basil, Homily on Humility, 20.3.

10. Jerome (347–420): “We are saved by grace rather than works, for we can give God nothing in return for what he has bestowed on us.”
Source: Jerome, Epistle to the Ephesians, 1.2.1.

11. John Chrysostom (349-407): “For Scripture says that faith has saved us. Put better: Since God willed it, faith has saved us. Now in what case, tell me, does faith save without itself doing anything at all? Faith’s workings themselves are a gift of God, lest anyone should boast. What then is Paul saying? Not that God has forbidden works but that he has forbidden us to be justified by works. No one, Paul says, is justified by works, precisely in order that the grace and benevolence of God may become apparent.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Ephesians, 4.2.9.

12. John Chrysostom (again): “But what is the ‘law of faith?’ It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans, 7.27.

13. John Chrysostom (again): “God allowed his Son to suffer as if a condemned sinner, so that we might be delivered from the penalty of our sins. This is God’s righteousness, that we are not justified by works (for then they would have to be perfect, which is impossible), but by grace, in which case all our sin is removed.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians, 11.5.

14. John Chrysostom (again): “Everywhere he puts the Gentiles upon a thorough equality. ‘And put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith.’ (v. 9.) From faith alone, he says, they obtained the same gifts. This is also meant as a lesson to those (objectors); this is able to teach even them that faith only is needed, not works nor circumcision.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Acts, 32 (regarding Acts 15:1)

15. John Chrysostom (again): “What then was it that was thought incredible? That those who were enemies, and sinners, neither justified by the law, nor by works, should immediately through faith alone be advanced to the highest favor. Upon this head accordingly Paul has discoursed at length in his Epistle to the Romans, and here again at length. “This is a faithful saying,” he says, “and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Timothy, 4.1.

16. John Chrysostom (again): “”For it is most of all apparent among the Gentiles, as he also says elsewhere, ‘And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy.’ (Romans 15:9.) For the great glory of this mystery is apparent among others also, but much more among these. For, on a sudden, to have brought men more senseless than stones to the dignity of Angels, simply through bare words, and faith alone, without any laboriousness, is indeed glory and riches of mystery: just as if one were to take a dog, quite consumed with hunger and the mange, foul, and loathsome to see, and not so much as able to move, but lying cast out, and make him all at once into a man, and to display him upon the royal throne.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Colossians, 5.2.

17. John Chrysostom (again): “Now since the Jews kept turning over and over the fact, that the Patriarch, and friend of God, was the first to receive circumcision, he wishes to show, that it was by faith that he too was justified. And this was quite a vantage ground to insist upon. For a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely. But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.”
Source: John Chrysostom, Homilies on Romans, 8.1.

18. Augustine (354-430): “If Abraham was not justified by works, how was he justified? The apostle goes on to tell us how: What does scripture say? (that is, about how Abraham was justified). Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:3; Gen. 15:6). Abraham, then, was justified by faith. Paul and James do not contradict each other: good works follow justification.”
Source: Augustine, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 2-4.

19. Augustine (again): “When someone believes in him who justifies the impious, that faith is reckoned as justice to the believer, as David too declares that person blessed whom God has accepted and endowed with righteousness, independently of any righteous actions (Rom 4:5-6). What righteousness is this? The righteousness of faith, preceded by no good works, but with good works as its consequence.”
Source: Augustine, Exposition 2 of Psalm 31, 6-7.

20. Ambrosiaster (fourth century): “God has decreed that a person who believes in Christ can be saved without works. By faith alone he receives the forgiveness of sins.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on 1 Corinthians 1:4.

21. Ambrosiaster (again): “They are justified freely because they have not done anything nor given anything in return, but by faith alone they have been made holy by the gift of God.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Romans 3:24.

22. Ambrosiaster (again): “Paul tells those who live under the law that they have no reason to boast basing themselves on the law and claiming to be of the race of Abraham, seeing that no one is justified before God except by faith.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Romans 3:27.

23. Ambrosiaster (again): “God gave what he promised in order to be revealed as righteous. For he had promised that he would justify those who believe in Christ, as he says in Habakkuk: ‘The righteous will live by faith in me’ (Hab. 2:4). Whoever has faith in God and Christ is righteous.”
Source: Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Paul’s Epistles; CSEL 81 ad loc.

24. Marius Victorinus (fourth century): “The fact that you Ephesians are saved is not something that comes from yourselves. It is the gift of God. It is not from your works, but it is God’s grace and God’s gift, not from anything you have deserved. … We did not receive things by our own merit but by the grace and goodness of God.”
Source: Marius Victorinus, Epistle to the Ephesians, 1.2.9.

25. Prosper of Aquitaine (390–455): “And just as there are no crimes so detestable that they can prevent the gift of grace, so too there can be no works so eminent that they are owed in condign [deserved] judgment that which is given freely. Would it not be a debasement of redemption in Christ’s blood, and would not God’s mercy be made secondary to human works, if justification, which is through grace, were owed in view of preceding merits, so that it were not the gift of a Donor, but the wages of a laborer?”
Source: Prosper of Acquitaine, Call of All Nations, 1.17

26. Theodoret of Cyrus (393–457): “The Lord Christ is both God and the mercy seat, both the priest and the lamb, and he performed the work of our salvation by his blood, demanding only faith from us.”
Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans; PG 82 ad loc.

27. Theodoret of Cyrus (again): “All we bring to grace is our faith. But even in this faith, divine grace itself has become our enabler. For [Paul] adds, ‘And this is not of yourselves but it is a gift of God; not of works, lest anyone should boast’ (Eph. 2:8–9). It is not of our own accord that we have believed, but we have come to belief after having been called; and even when we had come to believe, He did not require of us purity of life, but approving mere faith, God bestowed on us forgiveness of sins”
Source: Theodoret of Cyrus, Interpretation of the Fourteen Epistles of Paul; FEF 3:248–49, sec. 2163.

28. Cyril of Alexandria (412-444): “For we are justified by faith, not by works of the law, as Scripture says. By faith in whom, then, are we justified? Is it not in Him who suffered death according to the flesh for our sake? Is it not in one Lord Jesus Christ?” Source: Cyril of Alexandria, Against Nestorius, 3.62

29. Fulgentius (462–533): “The blessed Paul argues that we are saved by faith, which he declares to be not from us but a gift from God. Thus there cannot possibly be true salvation where there is no true faith, and, since this faith is divinely enabled, it is without doubt bestowed by his free generosity. Where there is true belief through true faith, true salvation certainly accompanies it. Anyone who departs from true faith will not possess the grace of true salvation.”

Source: Fulgentius, On the Incarnation, 1; CCL 91:313.
30. Bede (673-735): “Although the apostle Paul preached that we are justified by faith without works, those who understand by this that it does not matter whether they live evil lives or do wicked and terrible things, as long as they believe in Christ, because salvation is through faith, have made a great mistake. James here expounds how Paul’s words ought to be understood. This is why he uses the example of Abraham, whom Paul also used as an example of faith, to show that the patriarch also performed good works in the light of his faith.

It is therefore wrong to interpret Paul in such a way as to suggest that it did not matter whether Abraham put his faith into practice or not. What Paul meant was that no one obtains the gift of justification on the basis of merits derived from works performed beforehand, because the gift of justification comes only from faith.”

Source: Cited from the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture (ed. Gerald Bray), NT, vol. 11, p. 31.
If you are still reading, I hope you can see from this list how much an understanding of justification by faith is an important and central part of the Catholic faith, rightly understood. The method employed, one of probing for universality [i.e. oecumenicity], antiquity, and consent--a method as old as St. Vincent and beyond, must be ours going forward as we recover a comprehensive and orthodox theology of the Great Tradition in Christianity.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: calvinism
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So many folks I speak with who consider themselves to be Catholic really don't have a grasp of theology that is Catholic (in the Vincentian sense) at all. They have paddled their canoes up a narrow inlet and, fascinated with all the flora and fauna they find there, think they are in the only body of water on earth that matters. Meanwhile a whole ocean of theology lies unseen and unexplored. By this I don't mean exploring theological innovations and heresies (far from it!). I am speaking of the vast number of tributaries that flow into the whole body of theological orthodoxy--the Great Tradition, vast and rich--left unexplored by those who think their little bayou is all there is to the Catholic faith....

....I can’t count how many people I have had conversations with in recent months who are dismissive of the Reformers and the Reformation—and I am talking about Anglican leaders, even in the Anglican Church in North America. While some of these same folks make fun of the resolution that was proposed (in 2011) at the Convention of the Episcopal diocese of Atlanta to reinstate Pelagius as “a viable theological voice within our tradition,” many of these Anglican leaders do not realize that their own disdain for Calvin really amounts to a rejection of St. Augustine, and their disregard for important Reformation truths really amounts to an unthinking embrace of the very Arminianism, Semi-Pelagianism, and Pelagianism that they are ridiculing Episcopal liberals for resurrecting.

1 posted on 01/17/2013 3:11:24 PM PST by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

TULIP


2 posted on 01/17/2013 3:18:06 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

not familiar with that texting acronysm: what does it mean?


3 posted on 01/17/2013 3:21:57 PM PST by johnd201 (johnd201)
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: SVTCobra03
>> While there are individual Catholics who have a personal relationship with Christ and are thus saved, the Roman Catholic Church is not Christian. Calvinism isn’t much better <<

So which Christian denominations in your opinion, really "count" as Christian? I'd be willing to bet you reject 95% of Christianity in the world as "Christian"

5 posted on 01/17/2013 3:29:32 PM PST by BillyBoy ( Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: johnd201

T — total depravity. This doesn’t mean people are as bad as they can be. It means that sin is in every part of one’s being, including the mind and will, so that a man cannot save himself.

U — unconditional election. God chooses to save people unconditionally; that is, they are not chosen on the basis of their own merit.

L — limited atonement. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross was for the purpose of saving the elect.

I — irresistible grace. When God has chosen to save someone, He will.

P — perseverance of the saints. Those people God chooses cannot lose their salvation; they will continue to believe. If they fall away, it will be only for a time.


6 posted on 01/17/2013 3:33:36 PM PST by BipolarBob (Happy Hunger Games! May the odds be ever in your favor.)
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To: BipolarBob

just think of Andrew Cuomo. He’s on a one way trip to outer darkness. You can see in this man’s life that he’s already beyond grace ~ that’s pretty much what the acronymn covers, right?


7 posted on 01/17/2013 3:39:19 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Alex Murphy
Good article.

The references to Pelagius interest me. Its obvious he annoyed the churchmen of his day; its hard to find his arguments in his own words, since we mostly know what he thought from his enemies.

Pelagius’ error consisted of ... a failure to recognize that right standing with God can only be imputed to us as the result of an external cause God’s grace)...

I think Pelagius' response was "yes, but you have it".

8 posted on 01/17/2013 3:40:08 PM PST by marron
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To: Alex Murphy; Tennessee Nana; BipolarBob

Great posts. And of course that beloved acronym with decoder. Thanks to all of you.


9 posted on 01/17/2013 3:51:15 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: marron
The references to Pelagius interest me. Its obvious he annoyed the churchmen of his day; its hard to find his arguments in his own words, since we mostly know what he thought from his enemies.

It used to be hard. Nowadays, you can find his own words for sale on Amazon. But since it isn't that hard, IMO the only people who continue to defend him are those who seek to rehabilitate a historically heretical theology.

Princeton theologian B. B. Warfield considered Pelagianism "the rehabilitation of that heathen view of the world," and concluded with characteristic clarity, "There are fundamentally only two doctrines of salvation: that salvation is from God, and that salvation is from ourselves. The former is the doctrine of common Christianity; the latter is the doctrine of universal heathenism."
-- from the thread Pelagianism: The Religion of Natural Man

10 posted on 01/17/2013 3:52:52 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Alex Murphy

Thanks for the link.


11 posted on 01/17/2013 3:55:37 PM PST by marron
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ph


12 posted on 01/17/2013 4:05:31 PM PST by xone
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To: johnd201
not familiar with that texting acronysm: what does it mean?

Someone asked me that privately a month or so ago. This was my response:

>VM Catholic and don’t know what “the five point” plan is, or what “reformed church means, among other protestant denominations. Can you say, without to much trouble? Thanks, R.

I’ll try.

The Wikipedia article on “Calvinism” looks to be not too bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

For “the five points of Calvinism”, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism#Five_points_of_Calvinism . It’s a mnemonic concocted by an unknown person in the early 20th century to summarize certain Calvinist distinctives in the area of soteriology.

Reformed Churches are those bodies that confess one or another set of reformed confessions, either the “Three Forms of Unity” or the “Westminster Standards”. These would be churches with “presbyterian” or “reformed” in their denominational label. There’s a history behind all that, depending mostly on how things played out in Britain vs. the continent, and then imported into North America with various immigrant groups.

The beliefs these confessions articulate play out in sometimes distinctive ways in reformed worship and polity. Kind of complicated to go into.

Rather than yammer on at length, I think I’d just point you to, first and preferred, the Heidelberg catechism (http://www.ccel.org/creeds/heidelberg-cat.html). That’s about an hour’s reading.

Then, if you’re still up to it, the Belgic confession (http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/belgic-confession-1561/).


13 posted on 01/17/2013 4:49:47 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means." --I. Montoya)
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To: Alex Murphy

Mark for later


14 posted on 01/17/2013 5:10:04 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: Alex Murphy
Anyone who can take Vincent Lerins and walk away with him supporting Calvinism is what I'd call creative. Novel interpretation of Vincent is almost as ironic as censoring Farenheit 451.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm
15 posted on 01/17/2013 6:12:53 PM PST by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: Alex Murphy
Now in the Catholic Church itself we take the greatest care to hold that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all. That is truly and properly 'Catholic,' as is shown by the very force and meaning of the word, which comprehends everything almost universally. We shall hold to this rule if we follow universality [i.e. oecumenicity], antiquity, and consent. We shall follow universality if we acknowledge that one Faith to be true which the whole Church throughout the world confesses; antiquity if we in no wise depart from those interpretations which it is clear that our ancestors and fathers proclaimed; consent, if in antiquity itself we keep following the definitions and opinions of all, or certainly nearly all, bishops and doctors alike. Universality, antiquity, and consent, these are our criteria for discerning the Catholic faith, the essential faith of the undivided church, the Great Tradition in Theology as I prefer to call it.

The phrase many modern day Roman Catholics like to insist is STILL the standard of their church is:

Quod unam, quod semper, quod ubique.

(It has always and everywhere been one and the same.)

However, we know from history that the Catholic Church, as represented by the Roman Catholic Church, does NOT in truth hold to such a standard. Many of the dogmas developed after the first split (Eastern from Western) in the eleventh century. This split happened because of new doctrines that did NOT have antiquity nor consensus patrem (unanimous consent of the fathers). It was why the Reformers actually WERE appealing to return the church back to the faith once delivered unto the saints. It is why those of us today have assurance that the doctrines we hold to WERE/ARE the same as the early church because they follow those truths established in Holy Scripture. Scripture is our guide and authority - as God intended.

Strip away the fluff, scour off the embellishments and legends turned to dogmas, and you have the same faith holding the same truths as those the Apostles learned from the very mouth of Jesus and as revealed by the Holy Spirit to the writers of Holy Scripture. Jesus created His body of believers based on His truth as documented in the Bible and all those who earnestly seek to know Him WILL be rewarded. It is why we know, even today, that the church of Jesus Christ has NEVER disappeared and has never lost the gospel truth. God has always reserved a remnant that remains true to Him.

Thanks for the article.

16 posted on 01/17/2013 10:13:54 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Alex Murphy

I think where Calvin leaves Catholic doctrine is not on salvation by grace through faith, but his salvation by election.


17 posted on 01/18/2013 12:25:15 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Alex Murphy
a Catholic theologian affirming Calvin and quoting R.C. Sproul (as I did above) may be jarring to some

AH HA!! There are some Catholics who are saved!!!! ;O)

18 posted on 01/18/2013 2:34:56 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Alex Murphy
Hey, this is a great post. Here is the Vincentian Canon:

I'll have to book mark this one for the next sola scriptura argument or how the views of the Catholic Church no longer matches the views of the early fathers.
19 posted on 01/18/2013 2:49:37 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: boatbums
Amen bb!

"God has always reserved a remnant that remains true to Him."

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world"...."Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:14,17)

20 posted on 01/18/2013 2:59:03 AM PST by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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