Posted on 01/21/2013 7:45:16 PM PST by narses
Some areas of disagreement:
1. First off, I disagree with the underlying premise of the entire book - a premise that says the early church was untainted and uncorrupted by human tradition. I often ask this question to those who want to get back to the early church: Which early church do you want to be like?
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Hierarchy: from ta hiera “the sacred rites” (neuter plural of hieros “sacred”) + arkhein “to lead, rule”.
Thus, hierarchy=leaders of sacred rites.
By contrast -— if I may pun badly -— Hitler and Stalin were leaders of “lowerarchies.”
If you don’t like “archies” -— correctly defined and operating properly, as ordained by God and reflected even in the natural creation -— you’re not going to find much to like in heaven above, or earth below.
It went the way it was supposed to go, the object was for The Gospel of Jesus to be preached to all the world.
Yes, through the Church Christ established.
Pax tecum...
If you don’t like “archies” -— correctly defined and operating properly, as ordained by God and reflected even in the natural creation -— you’re not going to find much to like in heaven above, or earth below.
As far as heaven is concerned i may know as much as any one else which realistically is nothing at all, but hope through faith.
The church can not force me to believe a certain way, and they can not force me to worship a certain way which is what they could do if they were a heirarchy.
Yes, through the Church Christ established.
However, this has nothing to do with hierarchy. Let me show what I mean. There is no church hierarchy in Islam: no deacons, priests, ministers, bishops, no "official ordination" of preachers or pastors. And yet Muslims are some of the most coercive "religionists" on earth, and they threaten people with beatings, floggings, or death if they do not submit to Islam.
So you see amongst the Muslims NO hierarchy, but lots of violence.
On the other hand, when Jesus established his Church, He appointed 12 Apostles and 72 disciples who were sent out to preach; in the Acts of the Apostles we also see that Apostles consecrated other co-workers and successors called overseers ("bishops") like Titus and Timothy. They also appointed elders (presbyters, now called "priests"), as well as designating deacons by the laying on of hands. All of them were in fellowship with Peter, whom Jesus renamed the "Rock" on whom He would build His Church.
So there you have the Biblical beginning of an official hierarchy (deacons, priests, bishops, pope) --- and yet there is no record in the New Testament of them using force or violence.
So a religion without a hierarchy could be quite aggressive(Islam); and yet the Church with an Apostolic hierarchy, following Jesus' example, was peaceful.
So the problem isn't "having a hierarchy". Linking "force" and "hierarchy" results in a false or misleading definition.
I *think* then our disagreement is on authority. Who corrects - as St. Paul did - false doctrine and liturgy and by what authority.
You likely disagree, but I believe that as a practical matter without authority - apostolic for example - the Christian faith and gospel is not transmitted to us.
You likely disagree, but I believe that as a practical matter without authority - apostolic for example - the Christian faith and gospel is not transmitted to us.
And i see nothing that jesus said about who was to be greatest among the Apostles.
Some one needs to be in charge at a Church just like some one needs to be in charge at a dinner but i don,t see how that can make it a heiarchy no more than just one person digging a ditch can be called an anarchist.
The gospel could have been and actually has been taught by truck drivers as well as fishermen, and possibly by a few people who went to college to become ministers.
We agree again, the gospel can be taught by truck drivers.
But which gospel? According to whom? What happens when the truck driver teaches a different gospel - and a different Christ - than the fisherman?
Sola scriptura breaks down in practice; without an authority such as the bishops and councils, the gospel of Jesus and the Apostles would be lost.
IMHO, that is why Christ established His Church, gave it authority and created the hierarchy he did - which we see in Acts and continuously since.
thanks for your reply.
that is why Christ established His Church, gave it authority and created the hierarchy he did - which we see in Acts and continuously since.
Below describes rhe early Church and members, is this whar you were referring to?
Act 2:44
And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need.
Act 2:46
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Act 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
And
Act 4:32
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34
Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35
And laid [them] down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Act 4:36
And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, [and] of the country of Cyprus,
Act 4:37
Having land, sold [it], and brought the money, and laid [it] at the apostles’ feet.
I was referring to the hierarchy we see in Acts. Of course we see the Church in the Epistles such as Rome. We also see St. Paul correct, with authority, these congregations.
We also see St. Paul correct, with authority, these congregations.
In acts 4:32 it says
And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul:
In rev the letter to the seven Churches make it plain that even at that early date it was no longer the case.
It is plain that Gods will has been done, in proclaiming the Gospel of his son Jesus, sometimes because of the Churches and sometimes inspite of the Churches.
In around ad 70 there were seven Churches each with different faults so obviously with different teachings, today there are hundreds of different teachings, but the Gospel of Jesus is seeping through.
Jesus gave his Apostles the authority to preach the Gospel and once it got started it could not be stopped because some little nobody out there some where will be preaching it.
Jesus gave his Apostles the authority to preach the Gospel and once it got started it could not be stopped because some little nobody out there some where will be preaching it.
All of them the same Gospel? All of them with the same authority? Gnostics - then and today - as well? Benny Hinn? Peter Popoff? Who is to say they do not have the same authority?
History and experience show this to be a impractical and unsuccessful way to transmit the true Gospel. Which is why Jesus established His Church and gave her authority.
What did St. Paul give as his authority?
Gal 1:6
6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Already there were men trying to pervert the Gospel of Jesus.
I have the words that Jesus spoke, so if some one tells me that i am not supposed to do unto others as i would have them do unto me, i will know that they are not being truthfull.
If some one tells me there has been no resurection all i need to do is show them by the scripture they are wrong.
Which is why St. Paul rebuked them. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism." We see this continuing with the disputes over heresies, the councils, the creeds and one holy universal and apostolic Church. Otherwise...
today there are hundreds of different teachings
Not with the authority of the One holy, universal and apostolic faith.
but the Gospel of Jesus is seeping through.
It is still there in the same Church, but elsewhere, if anything, it is still multiplying and being changed with more and the same heresies: gnosticism, Arianism, Modalism, etc..
Your position did not work, has not worked and is not working today. The Church of God was not established this way - to not work in accurately transmitting the One Faith. There is a reason Christ established His Church, entrusted to His apostles with authority to preserve it throughout history down to us today.
Thanks for your reply.
By what authority are you right and they wrong? They can do the same to you with exactly the same authority as you.
Are you and your knowledge and interpretation of scripture and doctrine the measure and determination of the One Lord, one faith, one baptism?
No.
Paul did not rely on scripture alone. He specifically did not and those following him in the apostolic Church did not. Scripture alone is neither scriptural nor practical. It’s why the sola scriptura adherents disagree on doctrine - based on the same scripture.
They have it upside down. Scripture was never intended to teach doctrine but to prove it. The Church is prior to Holy Scripture.
Scripture alone is neither scriptural nor practical.
By what authority are you right and they wrong? They can do the same to you with exactly the same authority as you.
Deny scripture according to whom?
According to Oneness Pentecostals (non-trinitarian)? According to Dispensationalists (Gospel of Paul not Jesus)? According to Calvinist (salvation by election not by grace through faith)?
These and more claim sola scriptura supports their doctrines on Christ, faith, salvation.
In the end it becomes scripture according to each individual, the Christian faith according to each individual. We should agree that this is not what Christ intended.
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