400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church [Lds FAIR group critiqued]

MormonStories.org ^ | Feb. 10, 2013 | John Dehlin

[Colofornian]

...problems with FAIR

1. They legitimize the problems (unavoidable)

2. They introduce additional problems (unavoidable)

3. Many find their answers to be ultimately unsatisfying (unsure if this is unavoidable)

4. Many also find their tone and tactics to be unChristlike (definitely avoidable)

From respondent 2844: "As I studied Church history and uncovered many controversial historical evidence, I would frequent LDS apologetic sites for answers (e.g. FARMS (now the Maxwell Institute), Shields, FAIR. I soon discovered those sites rarely dealt with the controversial evidences but rather often skirted or obfuscated the issue and frequently resorted to personal attacks on the individuals who were publishing historical information."

"...it was the apologetic attempts by FAIRLDS that helped convince [me] that the Church doesn't have a good explanation for its side."

From respondent 2108: "I watched FARMS and FAIR apologists treat people horribly. For example, [one apologist] used to lurk on the Recovery from Mormonism site so that he could snatch up quotes from the people posting there, in order to humiliate them. This, coupled with the way apologists tend to treat critics (i.e., with ad hominen attack), was the lynchpin...I think they are the worst aspect of the current Church."

From respondent 1746: "On honesty, stop leaving it to the apologetics. They are terrible and are doing more damage than good to people's testimonies with their poor answers. For example...Book of Abraham."

From respondent 1865: "Please stop the ridiculous apologetics. Their circular reasoning and logical fallacies do more harm than good."

"FAIR...answers have done more to destroy...testimonies than any 'anti-Mormon' sources could. For many members, the fact that the LDS Church is officially silent on many of these problems is a testament in itself that the church does not have any answers and are hiding behind unofficial apologists like FAIR for plausible deniability."

[Colofornian]

This portion is about a four-and-half-minute clip from a PowerPoint presentation by internal Mormon critic John Dehlin...specifically critiquing the LDS apologetics group, FAIR.

This one comment from a survey respondent to Dehlin I believe is the most telling, for it "indicts" not simply FAIR, but the Mormon church itself: "FAIR...answers have done more to destroy...testimonies than any 'anti-Mormon' sources could. For many members, the fact that the LDS Church is officially silent on many of these problems is a testament in itself that the church does not have any answers and are hiding behind unofficial apologists like FAIR for plausible deniability."

At about the 31 and a half-minute mark, Dehlin talks about how problematic FAIR apologists and apologetics has become...seemingly chasing away more disaffected Mormons to the point of disassociating from the church.

[Hoodat]

Just what we need - yet another thread criticizing Mormonism. I was beginning to think a whole Sunday might go by without someone posting a new one.

[knarf]

Wait’ll the Catholics in Boston align with Sharia threads start to appear ... THAT should be a hoot.

[Colofornian]

Just what we need - yet another thread criticizing Mormonism.I was beginning to think a whole Sunday might go by without someone posting a new one.

Well, note the ORIGINAL posting date...SUNDAY, Feb. 10...by a Mormon...who was critiquing Lds apologists...

If you truly don't like Mormon critics critiquing Mormon apologists on Sunday, actually consider being consistent and write a note to John Dehlin...

[svcw]

I have a really great idea - fantastic even.
If you are agitated by religious discussions on the religion forum, don’t get on the religion forum.
Wow, it is just so simple, why can’t reasoned thinkers figure it out.

[Colofornian]

For one Mormon apologist's excerpted response to the 2012 Utah fiasco that included BYU, see: Of 'Mormon Studies' and Apologetics [Mormon apologist recounts his firing by BYU]

For yet another article on a 2012 Summer Conference featuring John Dehlin that provides some additional indicators of where he is coming from theologically, see: Sunstone 2012 Recap [Focus on internal Lds critic Dehlin's presentation on why some Mormons stay]

[teppe]

Coloronian

Try the Christianity of love .... instead of yours of hatred.

[SeaHawkFan]

Colofornian loves Mormons. Mormonism; not so much.

[Zakeet]

... how problematic FAIR apologists and apologetics has become...

Some of their stuff is really quite amusing.

One of my favorites was a Mormon apologist's attempt to explain Joseph's account of pre-Columbian Native Americans riding horseback as proclaimed in the Book of Mormon.

His response, citing a FAIR article, was that the Indians were actually riding deer, which from a distance resembled horses. After a laugh, I asked if it were not more likely for the Indians to be mounted on an animal that could better withstand their weight ... like, say, a buffalo. I never heard back.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Try the Christianity of love .... instead of yours of hatred.”

teppe, surely you are not implying mormonism, which is a collection of condemned heresies and New Age thought is Christianity????

You should also be consistent and CONDEMN Christ for speaking out against the Pharisees. Have you done that yet? According to your post, even he isn’t loving...

[Alex Murphy]

"I watched FARMS and FAIR apologists treat people horribly. For example, [one apologist] used to lurk on the Recovery from Mormonism site so that he could snatch up quotes from the people posting there, in order to humiliate them. This, coupled with the way apologists tend to treat critics (i.e., with ad hominen attack), was the lynchpin...I think they are the worst aspect of the current Church."

Sounds like a certain trolling FAIR writer I know of, who used to use the online name "Julianne"....

[Alex Murphy]

One of my favorites was a Mormon apologist's attempt to explain Joseph's account of pre-Columbian Native Americans riding horseback as proclaimed in the Book of Mormon. His response, citing a FAIR article, was that the Indians were actually riding deer, which from a distance resembled horses.

I wish I could take credit for this one, but it doesn't belong to me. This is based on a real FARMS/FAIR apologetic which claims "The most likely animals to have been included in the expanded definition of the Book of Mormon “horse” are the deer and the tapir."

Tapir-Back Riders
Tune: "Paperback Writer" by the Beatles - 05/17/2003 -
created by BBS & Gunshy

Dear Sir or Madam will you read my book?
It took me years to write, will you take a look?
It's based on a novel by a man named Joe
And the main idea is the Lamanites were
Tapir-back riders
Tapir-back riders

See, the Nephites came to the promised land
And those damn exmos just don't understand
That when they said "horse" they meant something else
But it all makes sense if you know that they were
Tapir-back riders
Tapir-back riders

I know the whole thing doesn't hold up well
If you take it literally, but what the hell
There’s this group of guys that work at FARMS
And they can save the whole thing by postulating
Tapir-back riders
Tapir-back riders

They say the book is really history
If so where's the proof? Ah, a mystery
External evidence is perpetually due
Apparently the best that they can do is
Tapir-back riders
Tapir-back riders

What the folks at FARMS don’t seem to understand
Is we want the truth, not sleight of hand
The Church asks for all, but gives nothing back
The best they have to offer is a team of hacks with
Tapir-back riders
Tapir-back riders

[Colofornian]

Tapir-back Riders

LOL

Ya gotta see this one: The Tapir Whisperer - Daniel Peterson - FARMS - BYU - Book of Mormon: Tall tapir tales for the testimony

[svcw]

I agree Christianity is love. mormonism not so much, and as we know lds leaders have taught based on the words of other leaders mormonism is not nor has it ever been Christian.

[RaceBannon]

Didn’t that already start to happen in real life??

[knarf]

Yes .. I’ll try to find this morning’s thread

[circlecity]

I bet one common reason people leave the mormon church is that they actually get saved.

[Colofornian]

I bet one common reason people leave the mormon church is that they actually get saved.

Yes.

And the sample of John Dehlin's study shows this to be the case for 11% of those Lds who self-label "disbelievers."

Per page 7 of this link -- UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens when they do? -- 1 out of 11 Lds disbelievers have moved on to a Christian (non-Mormon) denomination...

And, of course, this will only grow as more move further from their Mormon roots.

[freedomlover]

FWIW my life has changed since reading such “criticism”. I am now a follower of Christ partly because of reading such material. If you want to discredit such materials, have at it.

Or perhaps you just don’t like certain things to be discussed at all?

This discussion is in the Religion forum. Religion is discussed. That includes critical discussion. If a certain religion can’t tolerate critical discussion, I would argue that it has a deeper problem.