Posted on 03/10/2013 11:58:35 AM PDT by patlin
quick correction:
See Acts 3:17-26 which is taken directly from Dt 18:15-22, Acts 7:37-39, Rm 3:1-2 & Heb 3:7-4:13
You cannot be saying that the books after John are not the Word of God, you have cited several. I too believe salvation is possible for lovers of God, given the old testament only.
David says God’s law is wonderful, but Jeremiah says a better covenant awaits.
Hebrews is full of arguments of Jesus being the better way.
Clean the Greece from my eyes...hah that was funny. Ruling with a rod of Iron is a coercive justice. There is no Justice without mercy to alloy it, but justice must be dispensed as necessary or there is no true justice. For a thousand years, Christ will rule on the Earth after that, Satan will be loosed to deceive the nations again..”for a little season”.
Hebrews 12 describes the curse of Mount Sinai where there is gloom and smoke and destruction for those who have not received the Salvation of Jesus Christ, for those who have...there are the Joys of Mount Zion. I have read the prophets and I read the covenant made between Noah and God symbolized by the placement of the rain bow in the sky. God certainly is steadfast about keeping his promises and certainly pronounces future judgments upon Satan and those men who are unrepentant! The Noachide teachers certainly depict God as being one of unyielding Marble who busily keep dusting and polishing his set in stone, unyielding ordinances and fixed pronouncements.
The Christ I believe in and know (at least only as much as he has given me faith to believe) is the God in Flesh who openly marveled (displaying his humanity) at the faith of the Centurian and gentile while in his authority as HOLY GOD granted the centurion’s request for healing of his servant.
Consider why God made ordinances and covenants? Were they not mostly for man’s benefit? God told men to be fruitful and multiply and that he would never again flood the Earth with water. God covenanted with Abraham and promised him a son, from whom’s descendants would arise the living Christ! God gave the Mosaic code that promised blessings for those who adhered to it and curses for those who did not. Yet men could not live by them and the prophets including Moses knew that they could not and knew that an even greater covenant, one that could be inscribed into men’s hearts of flesh instead of tablets of stone, was needed. You might think the Ark was the place where the Shekinah glory of God rested and you would be right. The ark was also a promise, not just of the coming Christ who lived among men, but also a promise of our individual regeneration where the Spirit Of God resides in each of us.
Even having a vast knowledge of all the laws of God, and even having the willingness to try to keep them isn’t enough to save us. If we never again broke another law of God, that would not save us. Jesus Christ is the only one that can save us, and only by the Spirit can we learn how to apply his laws correctly with an eye fixed towards faith hope and above all charity! And when we fail, he is willing to forgive us as we repent!
One can only begin to grasp the laws of God by understanding his two greatest laws....Loving him with everything we have within us to do so and then loving others as we love our selves.
The little secret that I think mechanistic teachers of the law forget is that when one endeavors, by the power of the Spirit, to live by the two greatest commandments...all the other laws we’re supposed to live by (and by what proportions and sequences of applications as guided by the Spirit with Charity and Wisdom) will naturally fall into place!
The two greatest commandments are that we are to love God with everything we are and have...that is the vertical aspect of the cross and then we are to love our neighbor as we love our selves....that is the horizontal aspect of the cross. For on those two laws hangs every law, every covenant, and every jot and tittle ever uttered by the prophets!
Did not Christ say we are to take up our individual crosses and follow him? In loving obedience to the Father Christ died for us so that the message of the Father’s love for all men could be made manifest. He wanted men to avoid the great disasters of spiritual mount Sinai as depicted in Hebrews 12 and instead, enjoy the blessings of Mount Zion...also in Hebrews 12.
It is ironic really, you mentioning Hebrews 12, because as I’ve read your postings in this thread, you advocate positions that would again lock men back into the fearful orbit of Mount Sinai instead of having men look onward to the summits of Mount Zion.
Coming to Mount Zion; that is what the cross and the resurrection have done for those who believe in the living God in Flesh...Yeshua!
23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
24 Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”
You missed verses 23 and 24. Apparently Simon was cut enough in his heart that he responded with a request for prayer. Interesting though that he was not struck down dead the way Annanias and Sapphira were when they lied to Peter and the congregation and the Holy Spirit regarding the size of their money gift. I conclude that God in his grace saw some worth in keeping Simon around!
>> “Jesus, being resurrected, met with the faithful on that Sunday...” <<
.
That is a deliberate mistranslation!
The Hebrew original said not “sunday” but “the first of the weeks,” which was a Havdalah convocation that always occured when the first day began, which was what we pagan fools call “saturday night.”
Nice try!
Yeshua’s sheep never met on “sunday.”
First: Thank you for the compliment for my nice try.
Second: The mistranslation you decry is just my understanding of the gospel accounts from various english bibles and commentaries. I may be a dupe, but I’m not a deliberate deceiver.
Third: I understood the NT was written in Greek. Even so, if the Havdalah ( I looked it up) marks the end of the sabbath, Behold, comes Sunday.
Fourth: If by Yeshua you mean Jesus Christ, you cannot be saying He deliberately avoided meeting on Sunday.
Fifth: Being a pagan can be cured.
Sixth: What is the radius of a 90 degree curve whose tangent length is 25 feet?
Thank you for your response and I was thinking that Levi held no property and was not considered as part of the ten Northern tribes. had a senior moment...thanx
clear the Greece out of your eyes...PLEASE!!! That is the most creative funny one liner that sums this whole mess up I have ever heard and I have been in this argument over 25 years. GOOD ONE!
clear the Greece out of your eyes...PLEASE!!! That is the most creative funny one liner that sums this whole mess up I have ever heard and I have been in this argument over 25 years. GOOD ONE!
Actually he went to work on Sunday...remember he was a carpenter’s son.
Actually he went to work on Sunday...remember he was a carpenter’s son.
Sunday is a pagan day of the week that begins at midnight.
Havdalah happens on what the pagans call saturday evening.
The gospels were written in Hebrew and later translated into other languages. The disciples didn’t know any language but Hebrew, and Hebrew was the dominant language in the region in which Yeshua’s ministry occured.
Yeshua is his name, Not Jesus. He is the Messiah, not the Cristos, which was a mythical member of the Greek pantheon. To most this may seem irrelevent, but he did demand to be called by his own name. Sunday was a regular work day for Yeshua’s folowers, that is why Paul told his congregations to gather their offerings on sunday, it was forbidden to deal with money on the sabbath.
Your radius, if you’re talking about the external tangent, is also 25. (so what?)
Jesus did away with the sabbath as a ceremonial requirement as a commandment. All days are holy in Him. The RCC and the Judaizers both seem to believe one can overcome (at least some)of their spiritual shortcomings by following rules God never intended man to successfully follow.
I admit to much ignorance on this issue and I apologize for taking it as lightly as I did.
I’ll look at some previous threads to get a better understanding.
Thanks patlin, LadyL for your encouragements... I thought originally I might use 'Rome (rose) colored glasses', but i didn't know if folks would get it...
LOL, just a heads up, I'm going to lift that one from ya! Thanks for the ‘funny’.
NP. Unless otherwise noted, my work is always considered to be 'open source', so lifting it is an impossibility.
But, more importantly, Something just hit me tonight like a 2x4 to the back of the head:
Who gets to 'spin' the Holy Word? I mean who does Christianity rely on for interpretive text?
Latin/Rome (Beast power)
Greek (Beast Power)
Aramaic (The Hebrews' ancient enemies, and maybe Assyria/Babylon (Beast Power))
Is there a trend here?
>> “Jesus did away with the sabbath as a ceremonial requirement as a commandment.” <<
.
No he did not!
He did the opposite, he reaffirmed it.
There are no “judaizers.” Yeshua came to fulfill his promises, not to revoke them.
My point was that the 'rod of iron' is judicial, not militaristic. But all the same, the perfect justice of YWHW is coercive? That seems to go against the evidence of the last 6000 years. When my sons were young, I sometimes had to treat them in a coercive fashion, in order to teach them - But now they are men, and they understand. I don't have to threaten anymore.
God certainly is steadfast about keeping his promises and certainly pronounces future judgments upon Satan and those men who are unrepentant! The Noachide teachers certainly depict God as being one of unyielding Marble who busily keep dusting and polishing his set in stone, unyielding ordinances and fixed pronouncements.
The Christ I believe in and know (at least only as much as he has given me faith to believe) is the God in Flesh who openly marveled (displaying his humanity) at the faith of the Centurian and gentile while in his authority as HOLY GOD granted the centurion’s request for healing of his servant.
Soooo... The two are different? Is that your point?
Consider why God made ordinances and covenants? Were they not mostly for man’s benefit? God told men to be fruitful and multiply and that he would never again flood the Earth with water. God covenanted with Abraham and promised him a son, from whom’s descendants would arise the living Christ! God gave the Mosaic code that promised blessings for those who adhered to it and curses for those who did not. Yet men could not live by them and the prophets including Moses knew that they could not and knew that an even greater covenant, one that could be inscribed into men’s hearts of flesh instead of tablets of stone, was needed.
So the Torah, which YHWH says is good, eternal, and not grievous, cannot be kept? What of Yeshua commanding us to do and keep the Torah? What of the prophets who say explicitly that the Law will go forth from Jerusalem and the whole world will do it?
What is sin, except the transgression of the Torah? What is wickedness except the twisting of the Torah? What is lawlessness, but an absence of the law? Take away the Torah, and one takes away the very definition of right and wrong.
And finally, understand the structure of this: If Yeshua caused the Torah to be null and void (in one tiny way, not to mention the whole thing), then He cannot be Messiah. That is the penultimate logic trap against those who would believe as you do. And it is wholly insurmountable!
Don't believe me. My conversation with you has left me with the belief that you have a great capacity toward logic and reason - Test the above upon the whole Word, honestly and without preconceived notions, and you will inescapably arrive at the very same conclusion. Sola scriptura - Take it all the way.
Even having a vast knowledge of all the laws of God, and even having the willingness to try to keep them isn’t enough to save us. If we never again broke another law of God, that would not save us.
Who said it would? That is not it's purpose.
Jesus Christ is the only one that can save us, and only by the Spirit can we learn how to apply his laws correctly with an eye fixed towards faith hope and above all charity! And when we fail, he is willing to forgive us as we repent!
TRUE. Apply His laws then. Follow His example. Really. If you do, you must needfully end up here.
One can only begin to grasp the laws of God by understanding his two greatest laws....Loving him with everything we have within us to do so and then loving others as we love our selves.
How then, do you know you love YHWH? The Bible teaches us throughout: By walking in his commandments - The Torah.
The little secret that I think mechanistic teachers of the law forget is that when one endeavors, by the power of the Spirit, to live by the two greatest commandments...all the other laws we’re supposed to live by (and by what proportions and sequences of applications as guided by the Spirit with Charity and Wisdom) will naturally fall into place!
Indeed. That is exactly why I keep the Sabbath. That is why I am endeavoring to understand and keep His Holy Days, and not the pagan holidays and sabbath of the Roman church. That is why I am trying to tear down the Talmudic traditions that surround the law, in order to find it out in it's truth. And that is why I have thrown off the Roman and Greek traditions of Christianity to find the truth of Yeshua too. Reason and love dictate that I do so. And it has been a remarkable journey. The more I understand, the more I love YHWH for showing it to me.
Understand: In order for Yeshua to be the perfect sacrifice without spot or blemish, He necessarily had to have kept the law perfectly. That intrinsically requires that He cannot have changed the law at all. And as the 'Great Prophet who is to come', He cannot have led the people away from the law, as such a one would be a false prophet by definition.
Your statement declares that he did change the law. If that is true, then he cannot be the Messiah.
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