Posted on 03/10/2013 11:58:35 AM PDT by patlin
You need to read Torah.
The impressions that you espouse are not supported therein. Your premise WRT ‘work’ on sabbath is a Takanot.
They don't forget, they were never taught it because then the truth would be exposed as to the importance of the sharing of the bread and wine between Malki’Tzedek and Abraham and that it was a shadow of what was to come, the last supper and the sharing of the bread and wine as one of the steps to the sealing of any covenant that has to be done in order for the covenant to be valid.
If that meal had not been shared, then the covenant of the ‘seed’ of promise for a future ‘forever’ Malki’Tzedek high Priest to come would not have been valid. When Abraham accepted the bread and wine from Malki’Tzedek and then Abraham sending Makli’Tzedek away with a tenth of his wealth as a sign of Abraham's faith in that high Priesthood of God called the order of Makli’Tzedek, at that point in time, the covenant was made valid for Yeshua to become the high Priest forever.
The promise of the ‘seed’ of the woman of Gen 3:15 that would crush the head of the adversary sealed on that day forever!
Psa 110:4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
Through Messiah, we are members of that priesthood.
1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
Hos 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God. 10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.' 11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel Shall be gathered together, And appoint for themselves one head,
Hos 2:23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they shall say, 'You are my God!' "
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.
Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. 2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight. 3 Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
Jer 50:6 "My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away on the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.
Joh 11:49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish." 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
The argument is not dumb. His Sabbath is a shadow, a rehearsal for His eternal Sabbath and the renewal, the healing of life for His people.
Without His Sabbath, there can be no renewal, without His Sabbath there can be no healing! Take away His Day and there is no need for Him now is there?
Okay...well technically they were all Hebrews thru Jacob Isaac and Abraham...if you really want to put the matter thru the technicality strainer and Christians have been made spiritual Hebrews and children of Abraham via the Spirit of Adoption...there-bye fulfilling the promise to Abraham that the gentiles would be part of the inheritance.
Yeah well, when Christ comes to rule on the Earth what ever Sabbath day he declares it to be...then that’s what it will be for everyone. Christ was know to do surprising things when he was on the Earth. Maybe he will make the Sabbath on a Thursday...just to mess with our preconceptions .
Indeed, where-ever He is, so is the Father, so is the Holy Spirit and in the presence of God shall be our Sabbath feast, joy, peace, and rest, forever!
It is when we turn from serving Him on His day to doing that which pleases us and our desires of the flesh as I used to do with my desire/lust for Nascar racing, that mankind runs astray from Him.
A world where everyone does what they believe is right in their own eyes leads to a world of corruption. But a world whose heart is set on being one with the Father as the Son is one with the Father, will bring forth the incorruptible fruit of the Father just as the Son did. (Rm 6:8-23, 1Jn 3:1-12)
Further, we were strangers and foreigners as far as the Law of Moses was concerned (Gentiles). It is only through Christ that we can be grafted into the olive tree that is Israel. We are wild olive branches; they are the natural branches. The replacement theology that dispossesses the Jews had better think again. - Again, I don’t know anything about this Hoggard guy. - I do like to watch Irvin Baxter on End of the Age on the Church Channel; his programs are really good - doesn’t sound anything like Hoggard.
My thoughts exactly!
Actually I already answered Editor-Surveyor’s objection to my statement,(having attempted a lame joke about God having really rested on what we call a Thursday) knowing that there were plenty of ancient astronomers who could observe and keep track of time very well. Ultimately, in the muddled times after the flood and before the rise of the first big Mesopotamian civilizations whether or not there were still a few tribes that kept rigid track of the days or times or whether there was a “misplacement” of a few days here or there...I don’t think anyone could truly argue for or against.
Computers can extrapolate backwards celestial bodies and lunar positions, with corrections made with recorded info from ancient Babylonian records so that we know very clearly where the moon was on August 16, 3517 BC. If we accept the Jewish calendar and recorded cycle of years then we would know of the exact day and time, of the day of Creation.
I do find your remarks regarding Melchizidek intriguing as quite independently as I’ve looked at this thread, there were statements regarding the Talmud and of the rabbinical and priestly orders and I said to myself,”Yes but Christ was of the priestly order of Melchizidek not of Aaron and the Levites”. It could only be the order of Melchizidek that could keep the plumblines of time straight and true since the institutions of man would never be able to do so.
As for how Noah knew what clean or unclean animals were...the order of Melchidek may have informed him or God simply explained to him the same way God gave Noah the plan and skills to build the ark. The Bible doesn’t say how or if the order Of Melchizidek was involved in anyway. One can extrapolate I suppose since Christ was of the order of Melchizidek and since Christ was with the Father from the beginning, even, as the bible says in John, creating all things that ever existed, then one could argue that the order of Melchizidek was involved with the teaching and maintaining of the various ordinances right from the garden of Eden!
Yet, we also have Christ, God in flesh yet also a man tested at all points as the Bible says, who being of the the priest hood after the order of Melchizdek who looked at the plotting jackals at the time and said...”The Sabbath was made for man...not man for the Sabbath”.
Christ is not going to sweat it if a faithful follower of his worshipped on a Saturday or a Sunday. He will sweat it if in the process of keeping the Sabbath, the technicalities and the stress involved in hewing to those technicalities overcome the rest, the peace and joy that God wants us to experience during Sabbath...what ever day we keep it.
When Christ ultimately rules on the Earth, it will only be a minor adjustment to make sure everyone stays on the same page. After all, he will rule with a rod of Iron those of the nations who were left after the Great Tribulation.
“You are looking through the glass darkly. God considers those in service of healing, teaching Scripture and preaching Scripture as service to Him, not as a service to mankind. The fruit of compassion as God is compassionate leads to healing, but it also leads to the other fruits that are also reproduced when His Word is taught or preached.”
You aren’t even looking at the glass! You are arguing only from the vertical aspects of the cross. We love God with all of our hearts but we are also to love our neighbor as we love ourselves(the horizontal aspects of the cross). On those two commandments hang all the laws of the prophets.
As we discover that God loves us, then we begin to love God back. As we love God and he loves us, we begin to develop a healthy love and pure respect for ourselves. As we grow, we begin to look beyond ourselves and see those who are suffering and don’t have the same inward hope that God has given to us. We begin to yearn for these unsaved and to share our Hope with others, experiencing in miniature the same yearning for the lost that God the Father felt for all of us when He sent his son to die.
As for looking at glass darkly....lets see what that scripture really says so that you don’t ever use that phrase like a cudgel again!
<< 1 Corinthians 13 >>
King James Bible
(Love...and pay attention to verse 11-13; Context is key when understanding Paul’s epistles)
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Note that 1 Corinthians 13 is one of the greatest chapters on love in the whole bible.
One final question...it is true that God considers that when we do service to men we do service to him...but when God does service to men, has he also not done service for himself?
I don't mean to correct you, and I don't want to take the time to study it perfectly, but I think that Levi was set apart - He didn't get an inheritance, except a portion of the inheritance of each of the tribes... So Levi was scattered throughout Judah and Israel... I don't think Levi is counted with the House of Israel, even though a portion went into the diaspora with them (as can be noted by the identifiable Cohenim genes in far-flung places).
That doesn't go against your main point btw, as many were found to be righteous by YHWH prior to the crucifixion. I don't think that means they kept the law perfectly, mind you... but rather by faith (as is always the case)... Along with trying their best to keep the law, and repentance where needed...
Enjoy yourself.
Yes, I saw that.
knowing that there were plenty of ancient astronomers who could observe and keep track of time very well.
I am no astronomer, but considering the tale written in the stars, it would not surprise me to find out that there has been a visible mechanism to determine the Sabbath day all the way along. It would be a cool thing to find out.
Ultimately, in the muddled times after the flood and before the rise of the first big Mesopotamian civilizations whether or not there were still a few tribes that kept rigid track of the days or times or whether there was a “misplacement” of a few days here or there...I don’t think anyone could truly argue for or against.
Sure I can argue against that notion: YHWH specifically gave the day of the Sabbath to Israel in the desert by way of the double-portion of manna that fell the day before the Sabbath, and in the fact that the manna did not spoil on the Sabbath day. Since then, the days have been kept by the Jews, and as I said, no correction was made by Yeshua (which would certainly have had to have been necessary for Him to keep the law perfectly). From the time of the second temple, the day has been kept most assuredly.
It could only be the order of Melchizidek that could keep the plumblines of time straight and true since the institutions of man would never be able to do so.
It is more than that. Arron most certainly is legally given authority from within Melchizedek. So too, every other covenant - They cannot be separate things, but more a 'box within a box'. Inside Melchizedek is the Noachide covenant. Inside of Noah, Moses, and etc... For YHWH to be unchanging, what He is and what He wants cannot have changed all the way along.
The reasons for the times and seasons is not a matter of salvation: They are prophetic, and that is why they are to be kept eternally. The Hebrew notion is not so much 'Holy Days' as it is 'rehearsals', or at least that is a part of it. I can say with all clarity, If you are not rehearsing, you won't be ready for the big show! The Sabbath Day, The High Sabbaths, the Jubilees, all of it is there for YHWH's purpose in bringing Man back to Him. It is written in the stars, it is written in the prophets, it is everywhere. How can it be that we, in our hubris, pay it no mind at all?
One can extrapolate I suppose since Christ was of the order of Melchizidek and since Christ was with the Father from the beginning, even, as the bible says in John, creating all things that ever existed, then one could argue that the order of Melchizidek was involved with the teaching and maintaining of the various ordinances right from the garden of Eden!
It isn't much of an extrapolation. No man has seen the Father. Yet YHWH walked with Adam, and with Abraham, and etc? How can this be? Who could this YHWH be, who no man has seen, but who is seen? There is only One who fits the bill, And He IS the High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek, whom we know (as it is declared with every ounce of might possible) that there is only ONE priest in the order of Melchizedek, for all time. I don't know how it works, or 'when' it happened, beyond the bonds of time, but I can tell you in the very bottom of my soul who it was that Abraham gave his tenth to, and who it was that gave the bread and the cup to Abraham (and every one of his offspring in his belly). There is only one name under heaven, after all.
Yet, we also have Christ, God in flesh yet also a man tested at all points as the Bible says, who being of the the priest hood after the order of Melchizdek who looked at the plotting jackals at the time and said...”The Sabbath was made for man...not man for the Sabbath”.
Of course! See above. That isn't to deny the Sabbath AT ALL. If your mother said she will be coming into the train station at 6pm on Sunday, do you wait till 3pm on Wednesday to go pick her up? How much more important are the times and seasons wherein YHWH says He will draw near to us?
Christ is not going to sweat it if a faithful follower of his worshipped on a Saturday or a Sunday. He will sweat it if in the process of keeping the Sabbath, the technicalities and the stress involved in hewing to those technicalities overcome the rest, the peace and joy that God wants us to experience during Sabbath...what ever day we keep it.
I dunno, man... I think you'd better read the Prophets sommore. They tell you how it is gonna end up, and that is remarkably similar to what has been laid down in Moses. Take off those Roman glasses, and clear the Greece from your eyes.
HA! I made a funny! 'Greece from your eyes'! LOL!!! I crack myself up!
When Christ ultimately rules on the Earth, it will only be a minor adjustment to make sure everyone stays on the same page. After all, he will rule with a rod of Iron those of the nations who were left after the Great Tribulation.
The 'rod of iron' stands for 'justice'... it is not coercive, as Christianity has it... But all the same, the prophets say there will be a great gnashing and wailing, so it would be best to be on the inside looking out - And according to the prophets, that looks a whole lot like Moses. Several of the prophets look into the millennial reign... Go see what that looks like.
Is lying horizontally in union with serving in love verically? Can they both work together as one as God made them to work together if they are not in unison? Can one show His true love through lies and deceit? See Hebrews 12
And people wonder why the world is so screwed up!
LOL, just a heads up, I'm going to lift that one from ya! Thanks for the ‘funny’.
Act 8:9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,
Act 8:10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.”
Act 8:11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Act 8:20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
Act 8:21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
If the heretic is speaking in public, it is proper and fitting to expose him in public. But of course I gave him the option in private first, so charity was there on my part, just not on his as he continues to rant and rave against those of us who take seriously and heed the words of our Messiah that pertain to Abraham and Moses.
Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And uas was his custom, vhe went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up wto read. 17 And xthe scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written....
He read.
Just like every other somewhat educated inhabitant of the Roman empire. They were far better educated than most Americans.
Just like every other somewhat educated inhabitant of the Roman empire. They were far better educated than most Americans.
Rabbis were educated some more than most.. but the people were NOT.. at least with literary education.. no books.. why READ?.. Rabbis were mostly collaborators.. to Romans or to the puppet government.. Like current American democrats.. traitors.. Most still are.. Most (not all) Jews are traitors.. in America.. And a big number of Roman Catholics..
He was crucified because he offended the Rabbis not the Romans.. The Romans could care less what he believed or even WAS!..
The Mosaic sabbath is the ceremonial sign for which the destination/goal is the rest one receives in Jesus.
As you know:
He made a point, several times, to violate the pharisaical understanding of the commandment to show the new covenant was near.
It was simply not carried over to the new testament, unlike the other, moral based commandments.
Paul, in three letters, writes to the effect of the futility of keeping the sabbath law.
As to Sunday:
Jesus, being resurrected, met with the faithful on that Sunday, pentacost comes on Sunday, Acts 20:7 shows a meeting on the first day of the week, breaking bread.
See Acts 3:17-26 which is taken directly from Dt 18:15-22, 7:37-39, Rm 3:1-2 & Heb 3:7-4:13
Paul writes to the fultility of keeping Jewish oral law now called Talmud, he never speaks against the living oracles of God given to us through Moses. Know they law as there is more than one law Paul speaks of and they are not one in the same. Talmud teaches salvation through works, Torah teaches salvation through grace and obedience as evidence of that saving grace. (James 1-2) One law is from man and God's Law given through Moses by the Word of God who is also the voice of God, God's Law we are to establish (Rm 3:31) so sayeth Paul. You might want to restudy Eph 2:15 a bit harder and a bit deeper. The word written as ‘law’ there is not law as in the ‘nomos’ of Moses bit rather, Paul is referring to the ‘entole’, the statutes and precepts contained in the ‘dogma’, legal decrees of man (see Daniel and the decrees of the kings). One cannot read Eph 2:15 without considering its sister verses in Colossians.
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (dogma) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled (stripped) principalities and powers, he made a shew (mockery) of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
G1378 δόγμα dogma Total KJV Occurrences: 5 decrees, 2 Act_16:4, Act_17:7 ordinances, 2 Eph_2:15, Col_2:14 decree, 1 Luk_2:1
G1378 Total LXX Occurrences: 12 δογμα (10) Dan_2:13, Dan_3:10, Dan_3:29, Dan_4:6, Dan_6:8-10 (3), Dan_6:12, Dan_6:15, Dan_6:26 δογματι (2) Dan_3:12, Dan_6:13
G1378 Total GRC Occurrences: 6 δογμα (2) Dan_6:12, Luk_2:1 δογμασιν (2) Eph_2:15, Col_2:14 δογματα (1) Act_16:4 δογματων (1) Act_17:7
The Greeks never used the word ‘dogma’ in reference to God’s Law, NEVER!!! So it would seem that you have a choice to make, Rome that teaches a different Gospel than what was first given at Mt Sinai that was renewed in the blood of Christ, or God and true 2 Chron 7:14 repentance and a returning to God and His Way, the only Way the people who walked with Jesus knew about, was preached to about and could read it for their own eyes.
Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Neither Timothy or the Bereans had the letters of Paul or the Gospel accounts of Mt, Mk, Lk & John and since they were the first believers, we must be able to use the same Word of God that they did in order to be a fitting disciple of Jesus as they were and that Word is ALL contained in His Word that is left of Matthew, not right of John.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.