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Pastor Mike Hoggard of Bethel Church - A LIAR and FALSE PROPHET!
ConstitutionallySpeaking ^ | March 10, 2013 | ConstitutionallySpeaking

Posted on 03/10/2013 11:58:35 AM PDT by patlin

There has been a widespread and growing 'deadly cancer' in the Christian church as of late and that 'cancer' is the pulpits profusely proclaiming that anyone who wishes to do 'JUST AS' Jesus did and to walk in the same manner as Jesus did, those who choose this path have fallen out of grace and are claimed to have joined a cult. So is this true?

In his March 5, 2013, Mike Hoggard vehemently shouted at the top of his lungs during his radio broadcast that the 4th Commandment of God was nailed to the cross. Now mind you, this is the ONE Commandment of God that contains the 'sign/mark" of His Covenant with all mankind that dates back to the seventh day of creation. So could the Jesus that Hoggard preaches be the true Messiah that never spoke against or did anything in disobedience to God the Father? I would say without a doubt, NO, Mike Hoggard is not proclaiming the true Messiah that Moses and the Prophets wrote about but a different messiah and a different gospel and here is why.

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Isa 56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people, ...6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him. ... 10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber. 11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

Mike Hoggard claims to be a watchman but teaches that His seventh day Sabbath is not for all mankind and those that claim it is are heretics and members of some cult. So what else do the Prophets have to say of His Sabbath as being valid for ALL mankind?

Eze 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them (Rm 10:5). 12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.1 between them and Me, to know that I am יהוה who sets them apart. Footnote: 1See Ex. 31:13-17.

Eze 20:23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; 24 Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols. 25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live1. Footnote: 1Ps. 81:12, Isa. 30:28, Acts 7:42, Rom. 1:24-28, 2 Thess. 2:11.

Isa 66:19 "And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. ... 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

So we see that it was NOT prophesied that the Sabbath would be nailed to anything, but rather it will be restored in all its glory as it was in the beginning. So did Jesus of Nazareth speak to the continuation of the Father's perpetual and everlasting seventh day Sabbath for all mankind? Why yes Jesus of Nazareth certainly did.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. ... 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 2 And because iniquity (lawlessness / transgression against the Law of God) shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. ... 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the SABBATH DAY: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

So as this false prophet Mike Hoggard claims that his Jesus nailed the 4th Commandment to the cross and that we no longer are bound by this burdensome law, but as we can see, the true Jesus of Nazareth of the King James bible tells us just the opposite of what false prophet Mike Hoggard prophesies and that the true Jesus will be expecting us to keep and honor the 4th Commandment because as a disciple, one who imitates and emulates the Master, if one is a true disciple of Jesus, then one will joyfully do as Jesus did and not call ANY command of the Father burdensome.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous (burdensome).

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them (Ez 20:11). 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden (too hard, too burdensome) from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

interestingly enough, Hoggard did quote from Paul about making void the Law of God, but then in the same breath he denied that which he just spoke while also ignoring the fact that Paull also taught us that we are to 'establish' the Law of God by doing it through faith just as Abraham 'established' the Law of God by doing it through faith.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We are sons and daughters of God through the begotten Son of God and therefore, as He did, we are to do likewise so that through the Son, we also can be transformed into the likeness of the Father.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Therefore, according to Scripture Mike Hoggard is a LIAR and a FALSE PROPHET!

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Now I implore the readers to remember, these are NOT my words or accusations, these are the words and accusations of God the Father and His only begotten Son that Hoggard claims to represent yet in the same breath Hoggard denies both the Father and the Son. Therefore, in denying that the WHOLE Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation is for ALL mankind, Hoggard is denying the very existence of the authority of God the Father and His only begotten Son and creating his own authority upon the earth with a new Gospel message of lawlessness towards God the Father that the only begotten Son of God never taught or preached.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.


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To: ShadowAce

You need to read Torah.

The impressions that you espouse are not supported therein. Your premise WRT ‘work’ on sabbath is a Takanot.


141 posted on 03/11/2013 12:41:12 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: roamer_1
Folks forget that the Order of Melchizedek precedes Arron, and Abraham

They don't forget, they were never taught it because then the truth would be exposed as to the importance of the sharing of the bread and wine between Malki’Tzedek and Abraham and that it was a shadow of what was to come, the last supper and the sharing of the bread and wine as one of the steps to the sealing of any covenant that has to be done in order for the covenant to be valid.

If that meal had not been shared, then the covenant of the ‘seed’ of promise for a future ‘forever’ Malki’Tzedek high Priest to come would not have been valid. When Abraham accepted the bread and wine from Malki’Tzedek and then Abraham sending Makli’Tzedek away with a tenth of his wealth as a sign of Abraham's faith in that high Priesthood of God called the order of Makli’Tzedek, at that point in time, the covenant was made valid for Yeshua to become the high Priest forever.

The promise of the ‘seed’ of the woman of Gen 3:15 that would crush the head of the adversary sealed on that day forever!

Psa 110:4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”

Through Messiah, we are members of that priesthood.

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Hos 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God. 10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.' 11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel Shall be gathered together, And appoint for themselves one head,

Hos 2:23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they shall say, 'You are my God!' "

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. 2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight. 3 Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter and former rain to the earth.

Jer 50:6 "My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away on the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.

Joh 11:49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish." 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

142 posted on 03/11/2013 1:05:18 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: ShadowAce
This argument is dumb.

The argument is not dumb. His Sabbath is a shadow, a rehearsal for His eternal Sabbath and the renewal, the healing of life for His people.

Without His Sabbath, there can be no renewal, without His Sabbath there can be no healing! Take away His Day and there is no need for Him now is there?

143 posted on 03/11/2013 1:11:58 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: ladyL

Okay...well technically they were all Hebrews thru Jacob Isaac and Abraham...if you really want to put the matter thru the technicality strainer and Christians have been made spiritual Hebrews and children of Abraham via the Spirit of Adoption...there-bye fulfilling the promise to Abraham that the gentiles would be part of the inheritance.


144 posted on 03/11/2013 1:30:34 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Rest assured, Mankind is loved....both completely and severely!)
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To: patlin; metmom; editor-surveyor; ladyL

Yeah well, when Christ comes to rule on the Earth what ever Sabbath day he declares it to be...then that’s what it will be for everyone. Christ was know to do surprising things when he was on the Earth. Maybe he will make the Sabbath on a Thursday...just to mess with our preconceptions .

Indeed, where-ever He is, so is the Father, so is the Holy Spirit and in the presence of God shall be our Sabbath feast, joy, peace, and rest, forever!


145 posted on 03/11/2013 1:42:05 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Rest assured, Mankind is loved....both completely and severely!)
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To: ShadowAce
You are looking through the glass darkly. God considers those in service of healing, teaching Scripture and preaching Scripture as service to Him, not as a service to mankind. The fruit of compassion as God is compassionate leads to healing, but it also leads to the other fruits that are also reproduced when His Word is taught or preached.

It is when we turn from serving Him on His day to doing that which pleases us and our desires of the flesh as I used to do with my desire/lust for Nascar racing, that mankind runs astray from Him.

A world where everyone does what they believe is right in their own eyes leads to a world of corruption. But a world whose heart is set on being one with the Father as the Son is one with the Father, will bring forth the incorruptible fruit of the Father just as the Son did. (Rm 6:8-23, 1Jn 3:1-12)

146 posted on 03/11/2013 1:46:52 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: ladyL

Further, we were strangers and foreigners as far as the Law of Moses was concerned (Gentiles). It is only through Christ that we can be grafted into the olive tree that is Israel. We are wild olive branches; they are the natural branches. The replacement theology that dispossesses the Jews had better think again. - Again, I don’t know anything about this Hoggard guy. - I do like to watch Irvin Baxter on End of the Age on the Church Channel; his programs are really good - doesn’t sound anything like Hoggard.


147 posted on 03/11/2013 2:04:05 PM PDT by Twinkie (JOHN 3:16)
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To: Chaguito
This thread basically revolves around Hoggard cursing the Adventists and patlin cursing Hoggard.

My thoughts exactly!

148 posted on 03/11/2013 2:10:53 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: roamer_1

Actually I already answered Editor-Surveyor’s objection to my statement,(having attempted a lame joke about God having really rested on what we call a Thursday) knowing that there were plenty of ancient astronomers who could observe and keep track of time very well. Ultimately, in the muddled times after the flood and before the rise of the first big Mesopotamian civilizations whether or not there were still a few tribes that kept rigid track of the days or times or whether there was a “misplacement” of a few days here or there...I don’t think anyone could truly argue for or against.

Computers can extrapolate backwards celestial bodies and lunar positions, with corrections made with recorded info from ancient Babylonian records so that we know very clearly where the moon was on August 16, 3517 BC. If we accept the Jewish calendar and recorded cycle of years then we would know of the exact day and time, of the day of Creation.

I do find your remarks regarding Melchizidek intriguing as quite independently as I’ve looked at this thread, there were statements regarding the Talmud and of the rabbinical and priestly orders and I said to myself,”Yes but Christ was of the priestly order of Melchizidek not of Aaron and the Levites”. It could only be the order of Melchizidek that could keep the plumblines of time straight and true since the institutions of man would never be able to do so.
As for how Noah knew what clean or unclean animals were...the order of Melchidek may have informed him or God simply explained to him the same way God gave Noah the plan and skills to build the ark. The Bible doesn’t say how or if the order Of Melchizidek was involved in anyway. One can extrapolate I suppose since Christ was of the order of Melchizidek and since Christ was with the Father from the beginning, even, as the bible says in John, creating all things that ever existed, then one could argue that the order of Melchizidek was involved with the teaching and maintaining of the various ordinances right from the garden of Eden!

Yet, we also have Christ, God in flesh yet also a man tested at all points as the Bible says, who being of the the priest hood after the order of Melchizdek who looked at the plotting jackals at the time and said...”The Sabbath was made for man...not man for the Sabbath”.

Christ is not going to sweat it if a faithful follower of his worshipped on a Saturday or a Sunday. He will sweat it if in the process of keeping the Sabbath, the technicalities and the stress involved in hewing to those technicalities overcome the rest, the peace and joy that God wants us to experience during Sabbath...what ever day we keep it.

When Christ ultimately rules on the Earth, it will only be a minor adjustment to make sure everyone stays on the same page. After all, he will rule with a rod of Iron those of the nations who were left after the Great Tribulation.


149 posted on 03/11/2013 2:39:27 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Rest assured, Mankind is loved....both completely and severely!)
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To: patlin; ShadowAce

“You are looking through the glass darkly. God considers those in service of healing, teaching Scripture and preaching Scripture as service to Him, not as a service to mankind. The fruit of compassion as God is compassionate leads to healing, but it also leads to the other fruits that are also reproduced when His Word is taught or preached.”

You aren’t even looking at the glass! You are arguing only from the vertical aspects of the cross. We love God with all of our hearts but we are also to love our neighbor as we love ourselves(the horizontal aspects of the cross). On those two commandments hang all the laws of the prophets.

As we discover that God loves us, then we begin to love God back. As we love God and he loves us, we begin to develop a healthy love and pure respect for ourselves. As we grow, we begin to look beyond ourselves and see those who are suffering and don’t have the same inward hope that God has given to us. We begin to yearn for these unsaved and to share our Hope with others, experiencing in miniature the same yearning for the lost that God the Father felt for all of us when He sent his son to die.

As for looking at glass darkly....lets see what that scripture really says so that you don’t ever use that phrase like a cudgel again!

<< 1 Corinthians 13 >>
King James Bible

(Love...and pay attention to verse 11-13; Context is key when understanding Paul’s epistles)

1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Note that 1 Corinthians 13 is one of the greatest chapters on love in the whole bible.

One final question...it is true that God considers that when we do service to men we do service to him...but when God does service to men, has he also not done service for himself?


150 posted on 03/11/2013 3:07:30 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Rest assured, Mankind is loved....both completely and severely!)
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To: ladyL
The statement that Elizabeth and Zacharias were both righteous and blameless in he sight of God was made before the crucifixcion. Elizabeth and Zacharias were both Levites not Jews and from the tribe of Levi which had been divorced by God according to the Book of Hosea. Most Levites joined themselves with the House of Judah after the division of the Kingdom so that they could carry on their Temple duties. As Abraham was made righteous because of his faith in Yahweh perhaps the Levites were made righteous because of their faith in Yahweh which restored them to the Mosaic Covenant. Can anyone enlighten on this issue?

I don't mean to correct you, and I don't want to take the time to study it perfectly, but I think that Levi was set apart - He didn't get an inheritance, except a portion of the inheritance of each of the tribes... So Levi was scattered throughout Judah and Israel... I don't think Levi is counted with the House of Israel, even though a portion went into the diaspora with them (as can be noted by the identifiable Cohenim genes in far-flung places).

That doesn't go against your main point btw, as many were found to be righteous by YHWH prior to the crucifixion. I don't think that means they kept the law perfectly, mind you... but rather by faith (as is always the case)... Along with trying their best to keep the law, and repentance where needed...

151 posted on 03/11/2013 3:54:40 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: patlin

Enjoy yourself.


152 posted on 03/11/2013 4:44:58 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: mdmathis6
Actually I already answered Editor-Surveyor’s objection to my statement,(having attempted a lame joke about God having really rested on what we call a Thursday) [...]

Yes, I saw that.

knowing that there were plenty of ancient astronomers who could observe and keep track of time very well.

I am no astronomer, but considering the tale written in the stars, it would not surprise me to find out that there has been a visible mechanism to determine the Sabbath day all the way along. It would be a cool thing to find out.

Ultimately, in the muddled times after the flood and before the rise of the first big Mesopotamian civilizations whether or not there were still a few tribes that kept rigid track of the days or times or whether there was a “misplacement” of a few days here or there...I don’t think anyone could truly argue for or against.

Sure I can argue against that notion: YHWH specifically gave the day of the Sabbath to Israel in the desert by way of the double-portion of manna that fell the day before the Sabbath, and in the fact that the manna did not spoil on the Sabbath day. Since then, the days have been kept by the Jews, and as I said, no correction was made by Yeshua (which would certainly have had to have been necessary for Him to keep the law perfectly). From the time of the second temple, the day has been kept most assuredly.

It could only be the order of Melchizidek that could keep the plumblines of time straight and true since the institutions of man would never be able to do so.

It is more than that. Arron most certainly is legally given authority from within Melchizedek. So too, every other covenant - They cannot be separate things, but more a 'box within a box'. Inside Melchizedek is the Noachide covenant. Inside of Noah, Moses, and etc... For YHWH to be unchanging, what He is and what He wants cannot have changed all the way along.

The reasons for the times and seasons is not a matter of salvation: They are prophetic, and that is why they are to be kept eternally. The Hebrew notion is not so much 'Holy Days' as it is 'rehearsals', or at least that is a part of it. I can say with all clarity, If you are not rehearsing, you won't be ready for the big show! The Sabbath Day, The High Sabbaths, the Jubilees, all of it is there for YHWH's purpose in bringing Man back to Him. It is written in the stars, it is written in the prophets, it is everywhere. How can it be that we, in our hubris, pay it no mind at all?

One can extrapolate I suppose since Christ was of the order of Melchizidek and since Christ was with the Father from the beginning, even, as the bible says in John, creating all things that ever existed, then one could argue that the order of Melchizidek was involved with the teaching and maintaining of the various ordinances right from the garden of Eden!

It isn't much of an extrapolation. No man has seen the Father. Yet YHWH walked with Adam, and with Abraham, and etc? How can this be? Who could this YHWH be, who no man has seen, but who is seen? There is only One who fits the bill, And He IS the High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek, whom we know (as it is declared with every ounce of might possible) that there is only ONE priest in the order of Melchizedek, for all time. I don't know how it works, or 'when' it happened, beyond the bonds of time, but I can tell you in the very bottom of my soul who it was that Abraham gave his tenth to, and who it was that gave the bread and the cup to Abraham (and every one of his offspring in his belly). There is only one name under heaven, after all.

Yet, we also have Christ, God in flesh yet also a man tested at all points as the Bible says, who being of the the priest hood after the order of Melchizdek who looked at the plotting jackals at the time and said...”The Sabbath was made for man...not man for the Sabbath”.

Of course! See above. That isn't to deny the Sabbath AT ALL. If your mother said she will be coming into the train station at 6pm on Sunday, do you wait till 3pm on Wednesday to go pick her up? How much more important are the times and seasons wherein YHWH says He will draw near to us?

Christ is not going to sweat it if a faithful follower of his worshipped on a Saturday or a Sunday. He will sweat it if in the process of keeping the Sabbath, the technicalities and the stress involved in hewing to those technicalities overcome the rest, the peace and joy that God wants us to experience during Sabbath...what ever day we keep it.

I dunno, man... I think you'd better read the Prophets sommore. They tell you how it is gonna end up, and that is remarkably similar to what has been laid down in Moses. Take off those Roman glasses, and clear the Greece from your eyes.
HA! I made a funny! 'Greece from your eyes'! LOL!!! I crack myself up!

When Christ ultimately rules on the Earth, it will only be a minor adjustment to make sure everyone stays on the same page. After all, he will rule with a rod of Iron those of the nations who were left after the Great Tribulation.

The 'rod of iron' stands for 'justice'... it is not coercive, as Christianity has it... But all the same, the prophets say there will be a great gnashing and wailing, so it would be best to be on the inside looking out - And according to the prophets, that looks a whole lot like Moses. Several of the prophets look into the millennial reign... Go see what that looks like.

153 posted on 03/11/2013 6:19:50 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: mdmathis6

Is lying horizontally in union with serving in love verically? Can they both work together as one as God made them to work together if they are not in unison? Can one show His true love through lies and deceit? See Hebrews 12

And people wonder why the world is so screwed up!


154 posted on 03/11/2013 7:21:55 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: roamer_1
Take off those Roman glasses, and clear the Greece from your eyes

LOL, just a heads up, I'm going to lift that one from ya! Thanks for the ‘funny’.

155 posted on 03/11/2013 7:25:21 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: mdmathis6
The difference between charity and exposing a heretic as taught by the apostles.

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,
Act 8:10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.”
Act 8:11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.

Act 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Act 8:20 But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
Act 8:21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

If the heretic is speaking in public, it is proper and fitting to expose him in public. But of course I gave him the option in private first, so charity was there on my part, just not on his as he continues to rant and rave against those of us who take seriously and heed the words of our Messiah that pertain to Abraham and Moses.

156 posted on 03/11/2013 7:35:03 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: hosepipe

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And uas was his custom, vhe went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up wto read. 17 And xthe scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written....

He read.

Just like every other somewhat educated inhabitant of the Roman empire. They were far better educated than most Americans.


157 posted on 03/11/2013 7:43:15 PM PDT by Gamecock ( If we distort the gospel, that distortion will influence and affect everything else that we believe)
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To: Gamecock

Just like every other somewhat educated inhabitant of the Roman empire. They were far better educated than most Americans.


Rabbis were educated some more than most.. but the people were NOT.. at least with literary education.. no books.. why READ?.. Rabbis were mostly collaborators.. to Romans or to the puppet government.. Like current American democrats.. traitors.. Most still are.. Most (not all) Jews are traitors.. in America.. And a big number of Roman Catholics..

He was crucified because he offended the Rabbis not the Romans.. The Romans could care less what he believed or even WAS!..


158 posted on 03/11/2013 9:38:52 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: editor-surveyor; delacoert; patlin

The Mosaic sabbath is the ceremonial sign for which the destination/goal is the rest one receives in Jesus.

As you know:

He made a point, several times, to violate the pharisaical understanding of the commandment to show the new covenant was near.

It was simply not carried over to the new testament, unlike the other, moral based commandments.

Paul, in three letters, writes to the effect of the futility of keeping the sabbath law.

As to Sunday:

Jesus, being resurrected, met with the faithful on that Sunday, pentacost comes on Sunday, Acts 20:7 shows a meeting on the first day of the week, breaking bread.


159 posted on 03/11/2013 9:52:22 PM PDT by anathemized (cursed by some, blessed in Jesus)
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To: anathemized
The church records do not support your claim and Moses was not a Pharisee, Moses was a servant of God who the Word of God spoke to, the same Word of God who put on flesh and died for our sins.

See Acts 3:17-26 which is taken directly from Dt 18:15-22, 7:37-39, Rm 3:1-2 & Heb 3:7-4:13

Paul writes to the fultility of keeping Jewish oral law now called Talmud, he never speaks against the living oracles of God given to us through Moses. Know they law as there is more than one law Paul speaks of and they are not one in the same. Talmud teaches salvation through works, Torah teaches salvation through grace and obedience as evidence of that saving grace. (James 1-2) One law is from man and God's Law given through Moses by the Word of God who is also the voice of God, God's Law we are to establish (Rm 3:31) so sayeth Paul. You might want to restudy Eph 2:15 a bit harder and a bit deeper. The word written as ‘law’ there is not law as in the ‘nomos’ of Moses bit rather, Paul is referring to the ‘entole’, the statutes and precepts contained in the ‘dogma’, legal decrees of man (see Daniel and the decrees of the kings). One cannot read Eph 2:15 without considering its sister verses in Colossians.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (dogma) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled (stripped) principalities and powers, he made a shew (mockery) of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

G1378 δόγμα dogma Total KJV Occurrences: 5 decrees, 2 Act_16:4, Act_17:7 ordinances, 2 Eph_2:15, Col_2:14 decree, 1 Luk_2:1

G1378 Total LXX Occurrences: 12 δογμα (10) Dan_2:13, Dan_3:10, Dan_3:29, Dan_4:6, Dan_6:8-10 (3), Dan_6:12, Dan_6:15, Dan_6:26 δογματι (2) Dan_3:12, Dan_6:13

G1378 Total GRC Occurrences: 6 δογμα (2) Dan_6:12, Luk_2:1 δογμασιν (2) Eph_2:15, Col_2:14 δογματα (1) Act_16:4 δογματων (1) Act_17:7

The Greeks never used the word ‘dogma’ in reference to God’s Law, NEVER!!! So it would seem that you have a choice to make, Rome that teaches a different Gospel than what was first given at Mt Sinai that was renewed in the blood of Christ, or God and true 2 Chron 7:14 repentance and a returning to God and His Way, the only Way the people who walked with Jesus knew about, was preached to about and could read it for their own eyes.

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Neither Timothy or the Bereans had the letters of Paul or the Gospel accounts of Mt, Mk, Lk & John and since they were the first believers, we must be able to use the same Word of God that they did in order to be a fitting disciple of Jesus as they were and that Word is ALL contained in His Word that is left of Matthew, not right of John.

160 posted on 03/11/2013 10:15:37 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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