As expected you’re digging your hole deeper.
“At no time is baptism linked with grace in the scripture.”
St. Luke, writing in Acts on the testimony of St. Paul, connects baptism with the forgiveness of sins (Acts 22:16; also see Acts 2:38). St. Peter directly links baptism and salvation (1 Peter 3:21). How can someone get his sins forgiven or be saved without grace? He can’t. Baptism gives grace.
“In fact, the concept itself negates what grace even is.”
No, it doesn’t.
“It is not an inanimate object. It is not something one achieves through a certain act of obedience. Gods grace is bestowed on man by God directly, who, through His own sovereign right, has grace on whom He will and judges whom He will. It is a free choice of God.”
It is a free choice of God and He freely chooses to give it through baptism.
“To summarize, the Catholic view is totally alien to the scriptures, and without fail makes materialistic and fleshy that which God called spirit.”
Absolutely false. Jesus took on flesh. He still redeemed us and He did it through the death of Himself. Is that too materialistic for you? Didn’t Jesus rise REALLY from the dead with holes in His side and hands and feet? Is that too materialistic for you?
“Your quotes proved nothing at all, except maybe your inability to defend your own theology.”
No, my quotes prove you were taking things out of context to say the least.
“There is nothing wrong with my summation of the scriptures.”
There is something wrong with your interpretation.
“It is only you, clinging to Roman theology, that forces you to say these things instead of refuting my argument from the scripture.”
Nothing is compelling me to say anything except perhaps my love of Truth. You presented no argument from scripture. All you did was post several verses, no argument. Also, your view is a novel one that didn’t exist before the heresy of Protestantism. You’re doomed to fail from the start.
“Thats ridiculous. If an institution like the Papacy existed, he would refer to it as naturally as he referred to all the Bishops and the hierarchy of the church.”
So say you. But your opinion is meaningless.
“In Clement, the organization is also explained, with no reference to any Pope:”
Gee, I’m glad you now know there was a Clement of Rome, bishop of Rome. What you think of his letter is unimportant.
Then there’s this gem from you:
[When contesting that the pope is a bishop you wrote]
“Really? Lets see:”
And then you quote
“882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peters successor...”
Whoa! Right there - “Bishop of Rome”. Case closed.
“This makes Acts 15, with James presiding over the ecumenical council and declaring his decision, quite interesting to behold. It certainly makes it ridiculous to believe that neither Ignatius nor Clement would mention the office of the papacy.”
Actually, no it isn’t. And Peter made the decision at Jerusalem.”
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them. . . 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.”
Peter made the decision. Everyone kept their silence.
“On the other hand, they do affirm the existence of Bishops appointed by the Apostles, which agrees totally with the Biblical practice.”
And yet you have no bishops appointed by the Apostles or any bishop sent by them or their successors. We do.
“Nonsense. You have no idea what you are talking about.”
Actually I know exactly what I am talking about.
“It clearly says that the throne of Peter is presided over by three Bishops. It says nothing else. Please provide what so called context denies that truth?”
It’s right there.
Here. Read part of Theodoret’s letter to Pope Leo.
From Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus, to Leo. (See vol. iii. of this Series, p. 293.)
To Leo, bishop of Rome.
I. If Paul appealed to Peter how much more must ordinary folk have recourse to his successor.
If Paul, the herald of the Truth, the trumpet of the Holy Ghost, had recourse to the great Peter, in order to obtain a decision from him for those at Antioch who were disputing about living by the Law, much more do we small and humble folk run to the Apostolic See to get healing from you for the sores of the churches. For it is fitting that you should in all things have the pre-eminence, seeing that your See possesses many peculiar privileges. For other cities get a name for size or beauty or population, and some that are devoid of these advantages are compensated by certain spiritual gifts: but your city has the fullest p. 56 abundance of good things from the Giver of all good. For she is of all cities the greatest and most famous, the mistress of the world and teeming with population. And besides this she has created an empire which is still predominant and has imposed her own name upon her subjects. But her chief decoration is her Faith, to which the Divine Apostle is a sure witness when he exclaims your faith is proclaimed in all the world 375 ; and if immediately after receiving the seeds of the saving Gospel she bore such a weight of wondrous fruit, what words are sufficient to express the piety which is now found in her? She has, too, the tombs of our common fathers and teachers of the Truth, Peter and Paul 376 , to illumine the souls of the faithful. And this blessed and divine pair arose indeed in the East, and shed its rays in all directions, but voluntarily underwent the sunset of life in the West, from whence now it illumines the whole world. These have rendered your See so glorious: this is the chief of all your goods. And their See is still blest by the light of their Gods presence, seeing that therein He has placed your Holiness to shed abroad the rays of the one true Faith.
“St. Luke, writing in Acts on the testimony of St. Paul, connects baptism with the forgiveness of sins (Acts 22:16; also see Acts 2:38). St. Peter directly links baptism and salvation (1 Peter 3:21). How can someone get his sins forgiven or be saved without grace? He cant. Baptism gives grace.”
You dig your unscriptural hole digger.
The scripture cannot be broken, and therefore, grace is a free gift by God, and cannot be a baptism which is given by men. Baptism does not cause forgiveness of sins, but is only a sign of a spiritual baptism by the Holy Ghost.
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
The Jews, similarly, practiced baptism to represent life changes, and not, of itself, a saving act. It was necessary for converts to be immersed in water. The Christian, therefore, is baptized to show physically a spiritual reality that occurs by the power of God.
Paul, as well, calls the Old Testament washings and Jewish practices symbolic:
Heb 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: (9) Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; (10) Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
For example, Cornelius and his family, before they were baptized in water, were filled and baptized by the Holy Ghost, a result that can only mean salvation of their souls.
Act 10:44-48 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
The same is also true for the Thief on the cross, who went to paradise that very day with Jesus, cleansed of all his sin without the working of baptism.
“No, it doesnt.”
Roman debate at its finest. Dozens of scriptures proving it, and the guy replies “No it doesn’t.” Please post your evidence and do some scripture exegesis.
“What you think of his letter is unimportant.”
Apparently, the content of his letter is unimportant to you as well.
“Whoa! Right there - Bishop of Rome. Case closed.”
No, not really. You can be disingenuous about it, but we both know the “Universal Pastor,” with supreme power over the church, whom binds the Bishops together, is not someone or an office you would ignore.
But, if you believe it, and you have to, I suppose I have a bridge to sell you.
“Actually, no it isnt. And Peter made the decision at Jerusalem.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them. . . 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
Peter made the decision. Everyone kept their silence.”
What an atrocious twisting of the scripture. After these verses, James is the one who makes the decision on this matter. There is no debate on this.
Act 15:13-22 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: (14) Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (15) And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, (16) After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: (17) That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. (18) Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. (19) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: (20) But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. (21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (22) Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
This is the exact opposition position of the one Peter presented earlier in verse 11, which you omitted:
Act 15:10-11 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (11) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
James specifically says, “My SENTENCE is...” and gives his decision on the matter.
How you manage to make Peter, who speaks first, allegedly to have the last word, instead of James, who spoke last and with authority, who in turn decided to forbid the practice of eating things sacrificed, which Peter opposed, is beyond me.
“Here. Read part of Theodorets letter to Pope Leo.”
Still refusing to acknowledge that the “Throne of Peter,” according to Theodoret and Gregory, was possessed by three Bishops.
It doesn’t matter how much you repeat the same lame argument if you refuse to acknowledge what they clearly said on the matter.