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Buchanan: Pope Francis Against the West?
Human Events ^ | March 15, 2013 | Patrick J. Buchanan

Posted on 03/18/2013 2:37:33 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

“The Faith is Europe. And Europe is the Faith,” wrote Hilaire Belloc after that bloodbath we call World War I. “Either Europe will return to the Faith or she will perish.”

By 1938, Belloc concluded Christian Europe was done:

“The bad work begun at the Reformation is bearing its final fruit in the dissolution of our ancient doctrines — the very structure of society is dissolving.” He was right. Europe is the dying continent.

And looking back at the history of the Old Continent, we see the truth of G.K. Chesterton’s insight: When men cease to believe in God, they do not then believe in nothing, they will believe in anything.

Consider the idols to which European Man has burnt incense since losing his faith: Darwinism, Marxism, Bolshevism, fascism, Nazism, now globalism — the idea of a secular paradise where mankind’s needs are met by the state and people spend their lives consuming cultural and material goods until the time comes for the painless exit.

Wednesday, even as Europe has said goodbye to Rome, Rome began to say goodbye to Europe, where the fastest growing faith is manifest in the mosques rising from Moscow to Madrid.

The College of Cardinals, for the first time ever, chose a pope from the New World: Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Argentina.

To be exact, Pope Francis is not of the indigenous peoples of the New World. His father was an immigrant from Italy who came to Argentina before he was born. Yet, though by blood an Italian, Pope Francis, heart and soul, does not belong to Europe.....

(Excerpt) Read more at humanevents.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: catholicism; catholics; europe; popefrancis
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1 posted on 03/18/2013 2:37:33 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Money quote:

Wednesday, even as Europe has said goodbye to Rome, Rome began to say goodbye to Europe, where the fastest growing faith is manifest in the mosques rising from Moscow to Madrid.

2 posted on 03/18/2013 2:48:01 PM PDT by Sans-Culotte ( Pray for Obama- Psalm 109:8)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The main stream media’s collective question was: “You mean the Pope is Catholic?”


3 posted on 03/18/2013 2:55:16 PM PDT by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

For anyone confused by the title, in short Buchanan is saying that the Pope is good because he is against the evil Godless West.


4 posted on 03/18/2013 3:13:15 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
By 1938, Belloc concluded Christian Europe was done: “The bad work begun at the Reformation is bearing its final fruit in the dissolution of our ancient doctrines — the very structure of society is dissolving.” He was right. Europe is the dying continent.

You know its bad when Pat Buchanan publishes that for his quote. I never thought I'd see the day he'd agree with Belloc on that.
5 posted on 03/18/2013 4:53:30 PM PDT by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: xsmommy

ping.


6 posted on 03/18/2013 4:55:46 PM PDT by NeoCaveman (Viva il papa)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Pat is very wise. Europe is dead. And we’re not far behind.


7 posted on 03/18/2013 4:57:55 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Pitchfork Pat ping, thanks 2ndDivisionVet.


8 posted on 03/18/2013 7:57:02 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Why not follow our separated brethren of the Protestant faiths, and choose what doctrines we wish to believe and what commandments we wish to obey?

Buchanan insults me. My evangelical protestant faith is closer to what Christ taught then the Catholic faith is. Truth be told, the Catholic church has been going down the road of heresy for over 1000 years!

There is a reason the Reformation happened, and why the vast majority of Catholics countries have been followers of Socialism for so many years.
9 posted on 03/18/2013 8:02:57 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike


10 posted on 03/18/2013 8:14:09 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (I'll raise $2million for Sarah Palin's presidential run. What'll you do?)
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To: OneVike

Buchanan was just quoting Hillaire Belloc, who is worth reading. Did we begin to believe at the Reformation, or did we lose faith in the miraculous? The Reformation not only destroyed the unity of faith and ecclesiastical organization of the Christian peoples of Europe, as Belloc argues, but also sowed the seeds of modernism, which has proceeded down a slippery slope of rationalization for 500 years (including the socialism you mention), and has given rise to the endless division into sects and never-ending disputes among churches, and could not but lead to the complete unbelief which we see today as the religious corrosion continues. No, the magic of the medieval Church is not what it was, but only because our view of it is colored by the modern-Protestant world in which we now live, one in which the sacred and sacramental character of everyday life, attended by an expectation of the miraculous around every corner, is no longer self-evident, no longer part of our mentality. The world has become drab, colorless, faithless.


11 posted on 03/18/2013 8:31:58 PM PDT by MrChips (MrChips)
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: OneVike

Don’t ignore the consequence of Lutheranism: War among Christians, and the most horrific kind of war, driven by fanatical hatred. Both sides were complicit in the most brutal crimes, neighbor turning against neighbor as Christians had once against the Saracens, neither giving quarter because each thought God was on his side.


13 posted on 03/18/2013 9:36:29 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: moder_ator; Jim Robinson

Why the hell would you delete a comment on something that is based on an article from Human Events?

This was not an article about defending the faith. It was a political/religious article. What I wrote has every right to be posted.

You can either Restore my comment, or I will write an ANTI CATHOLIC article that will have freepers in a cat fight that will be remembered for a long time!

Your call!


14 posted on 03/18/2013 9:43:57 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike
This thread is in the Religion Forum.

Your post #12 was removed for use of potty language. All such posts on the Religion Forum are pulled as soon as we see them. The guideline is applied even-handedly to all RF posts.

15 posted on 03/18/2013 9:49:40 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator; Jim Robinson

What potty language?

I demand you show me, because I never used it. If you mean the phrase, “Bastard Child”. Sorry, but the word is used in the king James Bible. You need me to list the many times it is in there?

I guess we are now banning words that God finds acceptable, and you are now a greater discerner of language than our All Mighty God is?

Again, when does an article from Human Events get special privilege?

Not all things posted in the Religious Forum are protected.

So what say you Jim? Is this post from Human Events protected?


16 posted on 03/18/2013 9:58:50 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

I already sent you a Freepmail so that you could replace the problem word and repost. I’ll send it again.


17 posted on 03/18/2013 10:00:59 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: MrChips; moder_ator
Thank you, here it is again,
No, the magic of the medieval Church is not what it was, but only because our view of it is colored by the modern-Protestant world in which we now live, one in which the sacred and sacramental character of everyday life, attended by an expectation of the miraculous around every corner, is no longer self-evident, no longer part of our mentality.

I think Not!

It is the Catholics in America that have helped usher in Socialism. The evangelicals overwhelmingly support and vote for Christian values.

Catholics on the other hand have always backed Socialists, Kings, and other tyrannical leaders who enslave the common man. There were those like, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, who went against the grain, but most did not.

I get real tired of the way many Catholics seem to push historical revisionism when it comes to their Church. Sorry, but the history of the Catholic church has not been to support the freedom of the common man. It has had a history of supporting those who would enslave the common man.

Christ was NOT a Catholic, and Peter was NOT the first Pope. The Catholic church made it punishable by death for anyone other than a priest to read the Scriptures.

The Reformation freed men so they could properly worship Christ and read the Scriptures that God gave all men to read! Like it or not, the Reformation helped free men who were enslaved by a church that became the bastard child of the ruling Kings of Europe.

Why else do you think so many P{opes were brothers of kings. You either inherited the throne of your father, or you were banished to the church. If you were good at politics, you could rise in the ranks and become a Cardinal and maybe even Pope. Where do you think all those younger brothers went after the king died. They used to kill their brothers to eliminate any challenge to their throne.

Amazing what happens when men can freely chose between God and the world. Sadly, most will chose the world, but forcing them to chose God will not save their soul, they need to do so willingly. That is why you do not baptize children, you only baptize those who are old enough to freely chose who their God and Savior will be!

Sorry, but without the Reformation, we would still be owned by the Lords and tied to the land they own, while being told by the catholic Church, “God wants us to head the King and suffer”.

By the way, do you have a coin to help build the Pope’s bathhouse? After all, you know that everytime,

“Coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs.”

18 posted on 03/18/2013 10:04:57 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

I have no idea, but please don’t give our hardworking volunteer moderators a hard time. You can ask pleasantly.

Thanks,

Jim


19 posted on 03/18/2013 10:54:02 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: OneVike

By the way, the potty word in question was probably the word spelled c-r-a-p. It’s not allowed on our Religion forum.


20 posted on 03/18/2013 10:56:12 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: Jim Robinson

Yes I finally learned which word they had a problem with and changed it.

They are hard workers, and as a rule I try to treat them with the utmost respect.

However, as I pointed out to the moderator, the Scriptures are replete with language that is much more descriptive than what I used.


21 posted on 03/18/2013 11:11:02 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
What the secular media reaction to Pope Francis reveals is that traditional Catholicism is today almost as deeply alien to our present-day West as it was in Roman times, only the West chooses to ignore Catholicism, where Rome feared and persecuted it.

It isn't alien any more than Roman culture was to post Constantine Rome. It simply a matter that Christianity in the West is being replaced by cultural marxism, nihilism, and secular humanism, while we are colonized by real foreign religions and peoples.

Liberalism/Multicuralism/Cultural Marxism is national and civilizational AIDS. It turns the transmitters and keepers of civilization into its enemy. By itself, it is fatal. However, the opportunistic infections it invites kills well before it does.

22 posted on 03/18/2013 11:15:41 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: OneVike

Well, they did and said a lot of things in the Bible, but we don’t do them here. Haven’t smited anyone in ages.


23 posted on 03/18/2013 11:33:54 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: NeoCaveman

thanks.


24 posted on 03/19/2013 4:46:35 AM PDT by xsmommy
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To: OneVike
well, he does generalize and I'll agree with you that its wrong to blanket call all non-Catholic westerners by that phrase. however it is true for the ECUSA, for the Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witneses, Unitarians etc.

It also depends on what your, as you say it "evangelical p faith" stands for -- for instance, do you hold to the beliefs espoused in the Nicene Creed?

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen."

25 posted on 03/19/2013 5:06:19 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Good news, with the new Pope having been installed, look for the Lord to help him begin the needed “rebuilding” of His Church.

Did anyone see the sea of faces who attended that mass Pat? That is a sign of HOPE the rebuilding of the Church has BEGUN.


26 posted on 03/19/2013 5:33:30 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: rmlew

“Liberalism/Multicuralism/Cultural Marxism is national and civilizational AIDS. It turns the transmitters and keepers of civilization into its enemy. By itself, it is fatal. However, the opportunistic infections it invites kills well before it does.”

Its cure is going to be found coming from the “global south” Christian community who are now sending missionaries to the west to witness to others the good news of the Gospel of Jesus.


27 posted on 03/19/2013 5:38:59 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

The west is in winter right now, but good news, springtime is NOT far behind!

Despite the darkness that is out there, a new dawn is coming.


28 posted on 03/19/2013 5:45:52 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: OneVike

With a number of representatives from a number of other Christian communities came to the installation of Pope Francis, it is a sign that the prayer of Christ that all believers be one as from John 17 is coming to reality over the course of time.


29 posted on 03/19/2013 5:50:13 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Pat simply forgets that Pope Francis is simply is doing what Christ commands, just like He commands St. Francis of Assisi that he is to “rebuild My Church”.


30 posted on 03/19/2013 5:52:25 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Biggirl

I’m sorry to inform you that, until the Catholic church reforms their egregious errors, there is no way true believers can or should get together with the leaders of the Catholic church.

I will not go over the many reasons I hold to this belief, suffice to say, it begins with the very idea that any man is the voice of Christ on earth which holds more importance over any other man.

I, you, and any person on this planet can go directly to Christ and gain forgiveness. Not John, Paul, nor Peter was to be elevated to such stature as the Catholics hold the Pope.

So I reiterate, there is no common ground with Catholicism until the church rectifies it’s many heretical beliefs.


31 posted on 03/19/2013 8:28:51 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Cronos
I understand very well that the Catholic church claims to follow the Nicene Creed. However, the very act of praying to and through various Christians who have since died is heretical.

There is no place in Scripture that calls for anyone to worship Marty, Joseph, John, Peter, Paul, nor any other dead Christian. Christ and Christ alone is the way to God. No one comes to the Father accept through Christ.

Also, claiming that one can be prayed, or bought out of some form of purgatory is heretical. You have one chance to gain salvation and eternal life, and that would be during the days included in dash between the day of one's birth and the day of one's death. The Catholic church took a verse out of the historical account of the Maccabees (2 Maccabees 12:41,42,45) and decided that Christ was not the only way to salvation. By doing so, the church claims that Jesus lied when he said on the cross,

"It is finished"

How anyone can do the many things the catholic church espouses and still claim to follow the Nicene creed is beyond me. Until the Catholic church denounces their heretical traditions, they are no better than the Pharisees of Christ's day.

I do believe many Catholics are saved. However, I also believe very few Catholic priests, Cardinal, or Popes are save. To be honest with you, when I consider the many traditions the Catholic church requires it's followers to adhere to, I am hard pressed to see much difference between it and some of those cults you mention.

The one saving grace is that the Catholic church still holds to the belief of the Holy Trinity. Otherwise it would be a cult.

It's my prayer that the new Pope will put an end to the traditions of the Catholic church. As Christ told the Pharisees, Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition.

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."

I will add that the Catholic church holds to traditions like,

"All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.......... making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do." Mark 7:8-13


32 posted on 03/19/2013 9:17:56 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

the question is — do you follow the tenets in the Nicene Creed?


33 posted on 03/19/2013 9:21:11 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: OneVike
calls for anyone to worship Marty, Joseph, John, Peter, Paul, nor any other dead Christian.

No one worships "Marty" or any other dead Christian

Us in orthodoxy worship Christ alone.

Also, claiming that one can be prayed, or bought out of some form of purgatory is heretical. - purgatory is not a place, not a period of time rather the final sanctification

34 posted on 03/19/2013 9:23:33 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos
No one worships "Marty" or any other dead Christian
Yes they do, I know for a fact they pray to dead saints. Sorry, but I got out of classes at 3:00 pm every Wednesday from School to attend catechism classes for 4 years after my Mom married my Step Dad who was devout Catholic. Who by the way also prayed to through them.
purgatory is not a place, not a period of time rather the final sanctification.

Ok, I'll give you that, but here are a couple things I have with the heretical doctrine of Purgatory

  1. By adhering to Purgatory, the believer claims that Christ not finish his work on the cross.
  2. It is not explicitly found in the Bible.
  3. It implies that the righteousness of Christ does not cleanse from all sin.
  4. It implies that justification is not by faith alone.
  5. It implies that there is something we must do in order to be cleansed of sin.

You may disagree with my perceived problems of the doctrine of purgatory. I expect you to, but it does not make it a founded truth in the Scriptures. You can cite church Fathers, the apocrypha, and various biblical references to fire and purification. However, nothing you point to can be backed up by Scripture.

35 posted on 03/19/2013 9:56:04 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Cronos

I do, but I do not follow traditions built by men that make His Word of no consequence.

No where in the Nicene Creed does it state that Catholicism is the true church of Christ.

The church of Christ is the whole body of believers, not a religion based in a building in Rome.


36 posted on 03/19/2013 10:01:24 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Cronos

I have noticed today that there has been postings by non-Catholic Christians who question that the Pope is a believer in Christ just as much as they or we are. Even there was reps from a number of other Christian churches. I just do not understand the harsh postings. This should be a wonderful day for Christians, not just only those who are Christian Catholics.


37 posted on 03/19/2013 10:50:09 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: RobbyS

Today it was wonderful that reps from a number of Christian churches came for the installation of Pope Francis. A good sign of growing Christian unity.


38 posted on 03/19/2013 10:55:29 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Biggirl; Cronos

My problem is the way Catholics come off like this guy is a prophet appointed directly by God. He is a man,no more, no less. You do not see Evangelicals running around like Christ returned if we get a new pastor for our church. You don’t see Evangelicals claiming that Gods chosen has ascended to the throne of power and has with him the ability to end strife and anguish around the world.

He is the new head of a very troubled church that still holds many heretical beliefs. I have never acted different, I have always felt and spoken this way.

I speak up on these posts now because you Catholics think that this guy really was appointed by God to His voice on earth.

He wasn’t.

Besides, it took a couple of votes to figure out who the Pope would be. Do you not wonder why God had such a trouble deciding whom he He would chose to be His voice on earth?

After all, knows everything, the past, present, and future events, so why could he not decide who he would chose?


39 posted on 03/19/2013 11:10:01 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

It was by prayer to the Holy Spirit by the electing cardinals for direction on who would be elected Pope.

Also in regards to the troubles that trouble the RC Church, one has to remember that other churches have their troubles too. We are living in very dark times:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2998377/posts

Believers in the Lord all NEED to turn back to God with all their hearts.

Enough debate.


40 posted on 03/19/2013 1:05:48 PM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: OneVike

You are not a very good student of history. The Church fought tooth and nail against the early socialists of the 19th century (and of the 18th, in the French Revolution). Popes preached repeatedly against the errors of Modernism. And John Paul II with Reagan and Thatcher played a large role in the destruction of socialism and communism in Eastern Europe. The revisionism is yours. Pax vobiscum.


41 posted on 03/19/2013 6:49:09 PM PDT by MrChips (MrChips)
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To: Jim Robinson; OneVike; Religion Moderator
Haven’t smited anyone in ages

Not that I wouldn't like to......

42 posted on 03/19/2013 7:57:18 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: MrChips

Read what I said again.

I wrote that it was the Catholics, not the official church but the American Catholics who have overwhelmingly voted for Democrats and Socialistic minded politicians throughout the last century. Even in the new century the majority of Catholics voted for Al Gore, John Kerry (who served in Vietnam by the way), and Obama twice.

I have not revised history, you just failed to properly read what I wrote.

As for supporting Socialist regimes in Europe, it was only after Hitler was dead and out of power that the Catholic Church disowned him and many of his mass-murdering henchmen.

(As an aside, it will be interesting to see if the new Pope will crack down on the many leftist movements inside the Catholic church like the Marxist activities of the South African bishops conference. Who, with funding from European Bishop Conferences, are supporting the SACBC (Southern African Catholic Bishop’s Conference) which are involved knee deep in helping the ANC spread liberation Theology disguised as a Christian movement.)

It is a fact that the Catholic church favors mixing elements of Capitalism with Socialism. Look at most social engineering programs and you will see that except for abortion and the homosexual movement, the church always come down on the side of governments advancing Socialist agendas.

The American catholic Bishops even supported Obama care. It was not until Obama began forcing the church to cover abortion and contraceptives that it began to disagree. The Church could have defeated it, but it supported Obama’s election and the advancement of Socialized medical coverage.

How hypocritical of them. Kind of like Bill Maher now complaining about Californians high tax rates hurting him. now that Obamacare has them in it’s cross hairs, the church is complaining.

I really dislike religious institutions that help destroy my country, and the catholic church has been one of America’s enemy for many, many years. Just like they supported Hitler, they now support his twin, Obama!

All you Catholic Freepers who are defending the church, need to know who you are defending, Obama’s allie!

Not to mention the Catholic Church also supports the Global Warming scam. We can do this all day long if you desire me to.


43 posted on 03/19/2013 11:28:24 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

And you failed to read what I wrote, which was addressing the Church long-term. You did use the “1000 years” phrase. I simply defended the Church historically. As a convert to Catholicicm, I am more critical of the institution than most. But I defend here, nevertheless, as an historian, which I also am. I also left out the crackdown on the Church in Mexico, which is very much “modern” history. Nor did I mention the current pope’s persection by the leftist government of Argentina. All worth yor consideration.


44 posted on 03/20/2013 3:29:16 PM PDT by MrChips (MrChips)
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To: Biggirl; PJammers; xzins; redgolum
biggirl: I have noticed today that there has been postings by non-Catholic Christians who question that the Pope is a believer in Christ just as much as they or we are. Even there was reps from a number of other Christian churches. I just do not understand the harsh postings. This should be a wonderful day for Christians, not just only those who are Christian Catholics.

I think we see the noisy micro-minority of non-Catholics who post such rot and mistakenly think they are the majority.

Most of our non-Catholic Christian brethren do not hold such views.

45 posted on 03/22/2013 12:49:43 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos; Biggirl; PJammers; redgolum

I am a Methodist Christian, and I am very encouraged by the selection of Francis I. As one living under an episcopal system myself, we sometimes wait for the other shoe to drop. But, you can generally tell from someone’s past where their interests lie. Francis’ interests appear to lie with outreach and authenticity, so I have some real hopes in that regard.


46 posted on 03/22/2013 1:42:24 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: OneVike
You may disagree with my perceived problems of the doctrine of purgatory

The thing is that the problems you've stated are perceived, not real. Let me explain:

1. By adhering to Purgatory, the believer claims that Christ not finish his work on the cross. -- incorrect. Purgatory does not replace in any way Christ's work which was and is one-time. Let me explain -- take 2 cases:
a.Person who does not repent and accept Christ even until his/her death-bed. This person does not accept Christ's freely granted salvation, given by the grace of God. They are going to hell as we know it. There is no purgatory for them
b. Person who does repent and is Christ-filled. They are going to heaven. Christ's salvation is what saves them, nothing else. Christ's salvation has been working through them in life to sanctify him to raise him in holiness through Christ's blood to be ready for entry to heaven. final sanctification

2. It is not explicitly found -- not really -- you have Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). and Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." and also the most important is "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59). -- you can't get OUT of hell as we know it, and you don't have to get out of heaven right. So what is this then?

3. "does not cleanse from all sin." -- incorrect. It IS the righteousness of Christ that cleanses from sin, nothing else

4. James 2:24 is remarkably clear: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." and Rom 6:23 " 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord." -- this is clearly stating that while salvation is from Christ's sacrifice alone, the justification as Christ says is not becoming a slave to sin. What does Jesus say saves us?


Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) --> note these are HIS own words


47 posted on 03/22/2013 3:32:31 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos

Plus also they do not represent most of those non-Catholic Christians whom I have noticed have been from those posts that I have seen being that they are very welcoming and supportive of the new Pope.


48 posted on 03/22/2013 3:34:35 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: xzins

I think we’ve had a good line of bishops of Rome since JPII. Each distinct and each bringing a special quality needed. While I appreciate Pope Francis’ simplicity (well he’s a Jesuit after all and I know they take their vows of poverty very seriously — I know Jesuits who literally only own their Bible, their shoes, the clothes they are wearing and one spare), but Pope Benedict’s scholarliness and access to our Lutheran brethren was also key


49 posted on 03/22/2013 4:48:05 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: xzins

Wow! I mentioned almost the same thing on another thread. Pope Francis is somehow different. His mannerisms speak to me. I thought it was just me.


50 posted on 03/22/2013 7:23:47 PM PDT by PJammers (Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)
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