Posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
>> “So what does tormented day and night for ever and ever, with no rest day or night, symbolize?” <<
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Something very hard for people to come to grips with!
I think you missed my point about Hitchens. Those who hate God or the very idea that there IS a God, will not be won to Christ with the theology of hell that you espouse. For them it would be peachy if when they died they just ceased to exist at all. That's not all that different, BTW, from what Hinduism and other religions like it teach - that the ultimate end is "god consciousness" and the self ceases to exist because it is all blended back into the energy of the universe.
What you have failed to prove is that Scripture doesn't mean eternal separation from God is hell and it is a conscious, never-ending torment for those sent there. If this is not the truth, then explain what Jesus meant by telling the story of Lazarus and the rich man, who both died and each went to separate places. Lazarus to paradise/Abraham's bosom and the unsaved rich man to a place of torment where he was conscious and suffering. This man even begged Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers so that they would not join him in his torment.
It's been said that Jesus preached more about hell than he did about heaven. I haven't counted the verses, but I think it is inescapable that he certainly spoke of a place that people SHOULD fear and NOT want to go there. I disagree, though, that it is this fear that somehow forces people to accept Christ and not the love of God. The good shepherd knows his sheep and they follow him. We come to saving faith in Christ because we seek to know the truth and God says he will be found when we search for him with all our hearts. I also don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with the fear of God. It is called the "beginning of wisdom" and it is a healthy feeling to be afraid of those things that we should be afraid of. The atheist deals with this by denying that there is a God and telling him that he will just go into oblivion and annihilation rather than eternal suffering probably would only further solidify his position. Our gospel is about the grace and love of God and that should draw souls to him, but we know it doesn't with most people for few are chosen.
So what does tormented day and night for ever and ever, with no rest day or night, symbolize? The exact opposite?
I’ve heard the well-known conditionalist author Dr. Edward Fudge’s explanation of this verse. He claims that “smoke of their torment” implies complete and total destruction like smoke from the fire that consumed Sodom and Gomorrah. He also says that “they have no rest day or night” is indicative of the ceaseless nature that their punishment will take on for the time that they are punished (not necessarily forever). In other words, while they are being punished, they will not get intervals of rest like we all enjoy here on earth (even when you work all day, you still get to sleep at night). Instead, they will have no rest during this time, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that it will last forever.
But there is another explanation that i find to be more convincing than that of Dr. Fudge. To understand this argument, we’ll need get a little bit of context by looking at the two verses leading up to verse 11.
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” (Rev. 14:9-11, emphasis mine).
A Christian conditionalist named Scott McAliley read my article and pointed out to me that “to believe(as many do) that this is a figurative reference to everyone who failed to put their trust in God is to deny the plain language of Scripture that tells us that this is specifically a judgment on those who took the mark of the beast and worshipped him.” Indeed, this detail is frequently overlooked by traditionalists and conditionalists alike.
Furthermore, the verses clearly state this will take place “in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.” If nothing else, this should be enough to prove that this penalty is not an unending, conscious, torturing one because observing such a punishment is not the way the angels or the Lamb (Jesus Christ) will choose to spend eternity. So the passage appears to say nothing of hell or eternity at all. Instead, it would indicate that those people who are still alive at Christ’s second coming who have worshipped the Beast and received his mark will be tormented and destroyed, in the presence of Jesus and the angels, by burning sulfur raining down from Heaven.
Now, there will certainly be plenty of people who don’t agree with this or Dr. Fudge’s interpretation of Revelation 14:11. Frankly, one would be hard-pressed to find a book of the Bible with more alternate interpretations than the book of Revelation. Some may insist that the verse seems to indicate the traditional view of Hell and appears to apply to all who die in their sins (not just those who take the mark of the Beast). Yet, does that immediately mean that the traditional view is correct? Does it mean that we should abandon the wealth of Biblical evidence for the annihilationist argument? Certainly not. The reason I say this is that the Bible must be taken on the whole. There are Christian cults all over the world who have come up with ridiculous, pagan beliefs, and every one of them draws support for their convictions from the Holy Scriptures. Like it or not, the Bible can be used to support some of the most unbiblical theology any of us can imagine. Scriptures must be cross-checked against the rest of the Bible for there to be some semblance of unity.
For instance, in Matthew 5:29-30, Jesus himself says, “If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you....If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you...” If these verses are taken by themselves, they obviously have the plain meaning that we should be gouging out our own eyeballs and cutting off our hands. The reason why so few Christians accept this most natural interpretation is because it’s absolutely outlandish and runs contrary to the rest of the Bible! We’re made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26), and our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19)! It would be ludicrous to believe that our Heavenly Father truly intends for us to dismember ourselves when we sin. Even if no scriptures could be found to deny the plain meaning of Matt 5:29-30, Christians would still disregard this interpretation on the basis of common sense and their knowledge of the character of God. And they would be right to do so.
So, I’m not about to claim that no support can be found for the eternal torture model of God’s final judgment, but I would definitely say that it stands in fierce conflict with the rest of the Word, with common sense, and with the character of God.
Besides that, the middle of Revelation is perhaps the most bizarre set of chapters in the entire Bible. There is a massive amount of symbolism and a plethora of strange, indiscernible visions that work like scrambled pieces of a puzzle. I would contend that “proof texts” taken from Revelation (especially those middle chapters) should automatically be called into question for this reason. And one more thing: the very book out of which this scripture (14:11) comes also has one of the clearest illustrations of annihilation in Hell in the entire Bible. Rev. 20:14-15 says, “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
I agree with almost all of your post. Frankly, the bible even teaches us to not fear him who can destroy the body, but Him who can destroy the body AND soul. But I think you sum the whole thing up nicely in your very last sentence:
“Our gospel is about the grace and love of God and that should draw souls to him, but we know it doesn’t with most people for few are chosen.”
The only thing that perplexes me about the scripture that says “few are chosen” is that in Revelation 7, right after the 144,000 are carefully counted out, there is a multitude in heaven that no man can count who washed their robes in the blood of the lamb. It sounds like more than “a few”. I don’t have any kind of answer, I just notice the two at least appear to be in contradiction. Which is it? A few or a multitude no man could count?
It is John’s best account of the things he saw, but none of it is symbolic; it is all very real, and one should attempt to understand what John was seeing, because what he was seeing is all very real today.
What you have failed to prove is that Scripture doesn’t mean eternal separation from God is hell and it is a conscious, never-ending torment for those sent there.
Here is a good rundown on Jesus’ teachings regarding hell.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesusteachingonhell.html
About this Holy Father business, Jesus Christ said to his disciples:
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
(If you have difficulty reading or understanding this free KJV version, please consult a more modern translation that fits your particular faith’s tenets.)
No, factually speaking.
John couldn’t know what the military hardware he saw in action was, but we do for sure.
John couldn’t know what the military hardware he saw in action was, but we do for sure.
It is supposed to be a warning to refrain from usurping the judgment role reserved to God.
Another interpretation, that some dismiss out-of-hand, is that it is symbolism AND absolute visual reality all together at the same time in a perfect revelation. Some might call it inspired by God Himself.
It is a scientific fact that the cells in the brain remain alive for many minutes after the 'moment of death'. An honest atheist might just recognize The Truth and accept Him as the human spirit withdraws fromt he body to transition to the next phase of aliveness.
Another interpretation, that some dismiss out-of-hand, is that it is symbolism AND absolute visual reality all together at the same time in a perfect revelation. Some might call it inspired by God Himself.
And when I was very young in Christ I accepted pretty much any interpretation of scripture from “older in Christ” teachers. As I studied the subjects on my own I sometimes found that my position was strengthened and other times it changed. The two big ones that changed were Pre-trib rapture and the unsaved suffering consciously for time neverending.
I used to believe the insects with faces like a man and hair like a woman and their weapon was in their tail described helicopters. I don’t any more. It was a stretch in the first place, but I just respected the authority of the person making the claim.
Why wait indeed! But of course the simplest answer is that the ‘cares of the age’ mislead human souls. I believe God has a way to measure the souls of humankind, even if they are devout Buddhists. Recall if you will the ‘measuring Rod’ Jeremiah was given, to measure New Jerusalem ... IIRC.
“He also says that “they have no rest day or night” is indicative of the ceaseless nature that their punishment will take on for the time that they are punished (not necessarily forever).”
That’s a complete contradiction. He says “indicative of the ceaseless nature [of their] punishment..... [but] not necessarily forever.” By definition, that which is ceaseless is forever. Furthermore, it is not a painless punishment that is ceaseless, the subject at hand is “their torment.” Thus, their torment is ceaseless, and must therefore be forever. A person who ceases to exist, from your point of view, is punished, but he is no longer tormented. He has no mind at all. It was obliterated. But in the scripture, they are not obliterated, but are instead tormented forever.
It seems Jeremy makes arguments just as futile as yours.
“Scripture that tells us that this is specifically a judgment on those who took the mark of the beast and worshipped him.””
So, the position here is that only SOME people will burn forever, namely the 99 percent of the human population on Earth during the reign of the Beast, and of course Satan and his angels. But, presumably, those who died in their sins before hand get annihilated. This is certainly an interesting concession, but it’s illogical, for the scripture says that all those who are not written in the book of life are cast into the fire. And not just in Revelation, but everywhere in scripture. Those who do not believe are “condemned already,” they are the wicked, and die in their sins, and therefore are “cast” into the furnace “where the fire is not quenched” and their “punishment” (Greek Kolasis, torment/punishment) is eternal, in contrast to the blessed (Matt 25:46).
So then, are you saying that the millions of human souls who were deluded by the great power of the Beast are in greater sin and therefore are made invincible, whereas those who died before the Beast are made finite and their “worm” really does die?
It also appears that this position also concedes that the “torment” is indeed day and night, and that “everlasting punishment” really does refer to torment, though only for some sinners, and not all sinners.
“Furthermore, the verses clearly state this will take place “in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.” If nothing else, this should be enough to prove that this penalty is not an unending, conscious, torturing one because observing such a punishment is not the way the angels or the Lamb”
It seems these individuals cannot get their arguments straight, for either it is unending, or it is not unending, but they seem to like it both ways.
The meaning could either be, that they will be present at the condemnation, and therefore their torment begins in their presence, and then continues on “for ever and ever” which is most certainly true, or it could be that the torments go on under the eye of God and His Holy angels. In which case, that can also be true:
Isa 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. (24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Isaiah here describes the condition of the faithful as coming “from one sabbath to another” to worship the Lord, and here they witness “the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.”
This is the direct source for Christ’s words on hell, which declare their torment to be everlasting, their “fire” unquenchable, and their “worm” as never dying. This is not the language of people who cease to exist, but the language of a terrible condition of perpetual torment, all of which is witnessed by the servants of God and God Himself. Though, the language does not force us to think that that is ALL we do. It says “presence,” but not the sole object of fascination. Lazarus, for example, was quite happy in Paradise, despite the rich man looking up “in torment” calling out to Abraham:
Luk 16:23-26 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
“Does it mean that we should abandon the wealth of Biblical evidence for the annihilationist argument?”
There is no wealth of evidence for annihilationism. It’s completely in the minds of the people who wrest the scripture. Otherwise, it would have already been posted, instead of the opinions of Jeremy and his friends who think that ‘everlasting torment’ isn’t necessarily everlasting or tormenting.
A question: why cause unending pain?
I’ve touched on the content of the thoughts of myself, others and the bible. I’ve linked to many very thoughtful and in depth discussions. I leave you to read and believe what you chose.
Thanks.
” I leave you to read and believe what you chose.”
Well, you sure puttered out quickly. You go believe Jeremy and his “ceaseless torment that’s not forever” theology, and I’ll stick to the meaning of words and context.
You began with saying you agreed with "almost all" of my post. You did not give your explanation for what Jesus' purpose of the story of Lazarus and rich lost man in two different locations after their deaths. You also didn't tell me how your theology of hell would convince an atheist to seek God if the worst thing that could happen to him at death is his ceasing to exist in any conscious way. Some people, it's hard to believe, are not at all bothered by that but really welcome it.
As for the difference between the 144,000 and the uncountable "multitude" in heaven at the end of the Tribulation, there is no contradiction. The 144,000 are the 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel that are the witnesses of the gospel of Jesus as Messiah to the lost sheep of Israel during the Tribulation and are the reason why all of Israel receives and believes in Jesus as Messiah. The uncountable multitude are all the rest of the saved.
Just curious, are you a Jehovah's Witness? Some of your doctrine sounds an awful lot like the JW doctrines.
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