Posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
“To paraphrase the Catechism, God is not bound by his sacraments but the Catholic Church knows no other way to salvation but through them. (Which means it would be through Christ.)”
God isn’t bound to sacraments because they simply do not exist in the scripture as a means to receive “grace.” Grace is the free gift of God, which He chooses to give with sovereign right to the undeserving sinner before the foundation of the world. It is, by definition, the choice of God, and has nothing whatever to do with the individual works of the sinner.
2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
It is God’s plan, not a “sacrament” of the RCC, that declares that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. No other possibility exists in the scripture, period, regardless of what the Catechism declares.
??? OK, but you said I should comment if I wanted to and that I shouldn’t just sit there, etc...make up your mind.
Sorry, it’s not that simple.
Also, My focus is on eternal life. The fate of non-believers is relevant only when discussing the “hell thing” with non-believers hostile to Christianity. They post inflamatory stuff to be viewed by both Christians and those who have not yet been saved. It throws them off when They say Christianity believes in a god that will torture you for ever and ever if you refuse to believe. They show how nuts it is and then when I say, “but the bible doesn’t teach that”, it throws them for a loop. This is when we discuss the good news.
And no, the eternity thing does not work both ways. Even john 3:16 says one perishes and the other goes to “eternal” life. It does not say “life forever and ever”. Look at any scripture that discusses the fate of the dead. Yes, their fate is eternal. Just as the fate of my old car is eternal. But only one eternal fate is LIFE.
It is not eternal “life vs suffering”. It is eternal “life vs death”. And death is a simple term that any english speaker can understand.
Your one sin is worthy of eternal damnation by the perfect and Holy God who cannot and will not suffer your presence in His Kingdom.
Worst than that. When born, we still lack a human spirit regenerated in fellowship with God. That doesn’t happen until forgiveness, which occurs after we face Him and receive what He provided on the Cross. Children prior to the age of accountability and the mentally deficient never have the opportunity to face Him and consider the Gospel, so God is free to give them a regenerated spirit should they die physically and soulishly before they are given the opportunity to consider Him.
We are condemned first, before salvation.
Thanks for posting this. I see that this pope is a true apostate. Not surprising, considering the humanistic leanings of his predecessors. Unfortunately many are being duped by this and similar heresies being preached in the Church. If what the pope is saying is true, then Christ died for nothing. (Since anyone who does good works could be saved.) Scripture is careful to repeat numerous times that BELIEF in Christ and His sacrifice is REQUIRED. Good works are the result of gratitude for the gift of salvation. We do not perform them to earn heaven. Either the pope does not understand the plan God has for salvation or he is saying that Jesus was not who He claimed to be. That makes him a nonbeliever, and he is leading the largest denomination of Christians in the opposite direction of heaven.
“The fate of non-believers is relevant only when discussing the “hell thing” with non-believers hostile to Christianity.”
I don’t base my theology based on what non-believers find offensive or not. If I did, I’d be Joel Osteen.
“It throws them off when They say Christianity believes in a god that will torture you for ever and ever if you refuse to believe.”
It is the Holy Spirit who effectually calls and reveals Christ to the unbeliever, not the outward calling by preachers, who are merely the tools of God.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Unless God chooses to reveal Himself to the sinner, there is no way that the sinner, no matter how much you water down Christianity, will ever come to the Lord and Savior. Instead of trying to find ways to make the Gospel more appealing to a world that hates it, I’d be more focused with preaching the Gospel exactly as it was delivered. Those who preach a false Gospel are in danger of hell fire:
Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
“And no, the eternity thing does not work both ways.”
Of course it does. Look at the scripture:
Mat 25:41-46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: (43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? (45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
To the sinner, everlasting punishment. To the righteous, life eternal. The same word is used in both instances.
“Even john 3:16 says one”
To perish is to go to a place where you will suffer eternally and your “worm dieth not.”
Mar 9:42-44 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. (43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
“Yes, their fate is eternal.”
Their torment is eternal:
Rev 14:10-11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Sorry, but no matter how much you philosophize, you cannot “interpret” away something that is clearly taught.
I gave you the links I did because they argue every single point you made. They were also scripture I had in my head when I first read a serious argument against eternal suffering. I’m surprised you didn’t bring up Lazarus and the rich man.
Based on your comments outside this particular issue, I can tell that you and I agree on more than we disagree. It seems that we have this one point of disagreement.
But I referred to the links I gave because there is no need for me to argue what has already been argued. It’s all there.
And I agree that the eternal thing works both ways. But I am amazed how often we all ascribe meanings that are not really there. An example is the worm not dying and the eternal lake of fire. In one case it is discussing the worm consuming you and in the other it is discussing the fire consuming you.
I see it like this: The butcher we use to butcher our cattle has been in business over 100 years. If I say to someone that I am taking my cow to be butchered at the butcher that lasts a hundred years, it doesn’t mean my cow is being butchered for 100 years.
And if I throw an old newspaper into an everlasting fire, it doesn’t mean my newspaper is consumed for eternity. It means the FIRE is everlasting, but the newspaper is instantly consumed.
If I paint a fence white for all eternity, it doesn’t mean I am physically painting the fence for all eternity. It means I take as long to paint it as the reader would expect (taking into account the size of the fence, etc.) and it STAYS WHITE for all eternity.
The use of eternity regarding the fate of those that do not accept Christ is saying their condition is final. There will be no second chance.
The Bible famously uses plain language to communicate. Jesus came in the flesh as our perfect sacrifice. The bible also makes it clear that we can know He understands our plight, having been in the flesh and exposing Himself to all of our temptations. Yes, he even got erections on a daily basis when He left puberty. He is, after all, fully God and fully man.
God uses the word “death” to describe the fate of the non-believer over and over and over again. Everybody knows what that word means. It is simple language. It took a bunch of religious leaders to expand on that meaning to try to scare people into “becoming Christian”. It short circuits the very message you point out in your post.
The punishment spoken of is death - the second death. It is everlasting punishment because those that receive it are NOT coming back. But they are not alive. The reason is simple: alive and dead are opposites. And the bible is clear that they have not received eternal life. They have received eternal death.
They die and they STAY DEAD.
Ecclesiastes covers it pretty well. I don’t read it in parts. I only read it all at once. A very powerful message there.
Worst than that. When born, we still lack a human spirit regenerated in fellowship with God. That doesn’t happen until forgiveness, which occurs after we face Him and receive what He provided on the Cross. Children prior to the age of accountability and the mentally deficient never have the opportunity to face Him and consider the Gospel, so God is free to give them a regenerated spirit should they die physically and soulishly before they are given the opportunity to consider Him.
We are condemned first, before salvation.
1. God knew Adam and Eve would eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and “become like Us.”
2. A single sin makes you incapable of being in eternity with God.
3. Through the one man sin entered all men, just as through the one man, Jesus, all may be saved from that sin.
4. Assuming those that believe the bible teaches eternally suffering, our God is a God that created mankind with a “default condition” that most of mankind will find themselves in. This default condition is that they will be tortured more aggressively than any human despot has ever tortured a man, and it will go on into eternity.
Imagine you have never heard of Christianity and someone brings the message to you in that form: Eternal life, but if, on the scant evidence provided, you don’t believe, you will be tortured in ways incomprehensible for a time incomprehensible.
What sane man would come to such a “god” with a free will. Rather, the man would be conquered out of raw fear. Love would be utterly absent. No wonder so many people think Christianity is nuts.
However, Proverbs says, twice, “There is a way that seems right to man, but its end is death.” There’s that word again, “death”.
Sorry, but no matter how much you philosophize, you cannot “interpret” away something that is clearly taught.
Sorry, but no matter how much you philosophize, you cannot “interpret” away something that is clearly taught.
And the thing is, I agreed with the “turn or burn” doctrine as long as I just took other men’s word on it. Once I studied it, I did a complete 180, and a lot of the challenges I was having with it got crystal clarity.
Same thing happened with Pre-Trib rapture. I was AG and that is what I was taught. I accepted it for the same reason, though I had some questions that didn’t generate any good answers from my teachers. After studying the subject at length, I became “mid-trib”, or what is now called “pre-wrath”.
Death is a state of existence involving separation.
Many in our age confuse death with the philosophy of existentialism, thinking the absence of life is identified with nonexistence.
When God creates human life in the human soul and again in the human spirit, that life doesn’t disappear anymore than mass may disappear from existence.
Heb 4:12
(12) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Death is a state of existence involving separation.
Many in our age confuse death with the philosophy of existentialism, thinking the absence of life is identified with nonexistence.
When God creates human life in the human soul and again in the human spirit, that life doesn’t disappear anymore than mass may disappear from existence.
After studying the subject, I no longer see it that way. I believe Adam put an end to the eternal life thing by bringing sin into the world - and ALL human beings are born into it. Jesus brought the opportunity to “become sons of God” - the ability to receive eternal life.
Death is death. regarding a human, a pig, a dandelion and the dodge dart, though the latter was resurrected recently by Chrysler. I guess it was only “mostly dead”.
For animals and plants, the death of the body is it. Done. Fin. For the human soul, it is the second death that has the same impact. Cast into the lake of fire and burned up, never to be seen or heard from again.
And the fire (or worm, or whatever else you want to call it) is not Chrysler. Those not found in the book of life are not coming back. That is the overwhelming message of the bible. At the great white throne, ALL chances have been used up for all eternity. If you are not in the book, you go the way of Sodom. Never to be seen or heard from again.
Death is a state of existence involving separation.
And this gets into the crux of the whole thing: Arguing this is like arguing the description of the color “red” in a world of black and white gray-scale. I don’t believe “eternity” means time never ending. I believe it may be “something like that” but more of a place than a way of measuring time.
I believe the bible, on the surface, appears contradictory regarding the afterlife. Why use the plain word “death” if it is not what you mean? The meaning of the word is crystal clear in all conversations based in English EXCEPT when we start discussing the afterlife described in the Bible. I think it is because plain english is being used by God (or whatever language your particular bible is written in) to “explain the sound of a fiddle to a man born deaf.”
This means that ANY explanation beyond the actual words is up for interpretation, and why I don’t believe in the turn-or-burn doctrine because it does not fit the personality of the God of the bible. Yes, he is just, but he lets the punishment fit the crime. Eternal torture does not fit ANY crime committed by a man, unless that man’s crime was to prevent the salvation of another man. I don’t think that is even possible, though. And since the punishment is quite literally far beyond the comprehension of any human being, I question any support for such an action by a just and loving God.
If the bible was crystal clear on it, that would be different. But it would not use the word “death” to describe it. Rather, it would say something like “eternal life of torture”. But it clearly teaches that it is the opposite of the plain phrase “eternal life”.
But opinions clearly vary.
Of course, the same reasoning is why the human race was created. It will show the eternal damnation of Satan and the fallen angels is just and righteous.
If not, then neither shall Satan or the fallen angels be cast into the Lake of Fire, but will dwell with man forever more.
I testify His judgment is just, righteous, and the Lake of Fire is indeed very eternal.
It has always been my understanding that Catholic teaching teaches that BAPTISM makes us children of God. I am troubled by his remarks because they absolutely sound as if they contradict Catholic teaching.
Also, Salvation, I think that you are wrong about only 2 dogmas being infallible. It is my understanding that *any* teaching on faith and morals is considered infallible (so basically any teaching in the Catechism). Of course, you are correct in saying that his homily is not infallible.
I testify His judgment is just, righteous, and the Lake of Fire is indeed very eternal.
Of course, the same reasoning is why the human race was created. It will show the eternal damnation of Satan and the fallen angels is just and righteous.
God’s game plan for them is different than His game plan for man.
You might thumb YOUR Bible and see that the WILL of the Father is " that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life" (John 6:4). You will also find that "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36).
You will also see that to deny the Son is to deny the Father (1 John 2:22; 1 John 4:3)...and they shall not see life.
Everything you said (about knowing) and everything the Pope said is contrary to the Holy Scripture and contrary to 2000 years of Christian Doctrine. It is a NEW teaching...and this you cannot deny. This is not something the Apostles taught...the Church Fathers taught...the Church Councils taught. Up until now it is only what heretics have taught.
It is heresy. Again...the WILL of GOD is to believe the SON. That is what God's WORD says. Paul says...IN GOD'S WORD...if anyone preaches a different Gospel...let them be ACCURSED (Gal 1:8).
Let this heresy...and ALL THOSE teaching it be accursed!
"Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins (Rev 18:4)!!!!"
Hebrews 11:6 - "And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."
WITHOUT FAITH...IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. ONE MUST BELIEVE HE EXISTS.
I'll stick with God's word on this one....not the word of someone directly contradicting it who is having to twist 2000 years of orthodox Christianity to obtain it.
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