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Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!
Catholic Online ^ | 5/24/2013 | Catholic Online

Posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith

LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.

However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.

Francis based his homily on the message of Christ to his disciples taken from the Gospel of Mark. Francis delivered his message by sharing a story of a Catholic who asked a priest if atheists were saved by Christ.

"They complain," Francis said, "If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good." He explained that Jesus corrected them, "Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good."

The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."

"Even them, everyone, we all have the duty to do good, Pope Francis said on Vatican Radio.

"Just do good" was his challenge, "and we'll find a meeting point."

(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: atheists; catholic; davemsmith; francis; pope; popefrancis; redemption; romancatholicism; salvation; sectarianturmoil; swedenborgcult; vatican
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1 posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
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To: DaveMSmith

Psalm 14:1, “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.”


2 posted on 05/24/2013 2:36:39 AM PDT by Keli Kilohana (Editor, ZARR CHASM CHRONICAL [sic], Sore, WV)
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To: Keli Kilohana

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Seems clear enough.


3 posted on 05/24/2013 2:38:16 AM PDT by Salamander (The only things that last forever are memories and sorrow.)
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To: DaveMSmith

“Those people must still do good”

Well, nice to know you can work your way to heaven.

Witness The Romans Road to Salvation and The three great parables of Mathew 13.

I’m shocked the Pope would say this.


4 posted on 05/24/2013 2:40:09 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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Comment #5 Removed by Moderator

To: Vendome

Did you read his sermon? His sermon is pretty clear - he talks about how Christ says, “whatsoever you did for the least of those - you also did for me.”

It’s not about doing good for the sake of doing good - but about how serving your brothers and sisters serves Christ. Works not in absence of faith but works in affirmation of faith.


6 posted on 05/24/2013 2:48:28 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: DaveMSmith

where in Mark is he referencing?


7 posted on 05/24/2013 2:49:03 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Oztrich Boy

Oh dear.


8 posted on 05/24/2013 2:49:23 AM PDT by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: Keli Kilohana

“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.”

There is no god. And that was out loud...


9 posted on 05/24/2013 2:54:07 AM PDT by BigCinBigD (...Was that okay?)
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To: Salamander

Yes, it is true. We are saved by God’s grace. Whether or not one explicitly knows that is not the issue. It is by the sacrifice of the Son that we are saved. God didn’t have to do that, but He did. You might thumb your bible for the verse about “doing the WILL of the Father.” God does not just expect you to sit around on your butt. If an atheist consistently does the WILL OF THE FATHER then he too can be saved. We must pray for those who manage, by natural law, to develop an ethos of helping people, and avoiding evil. The atheist, has a harder time to be sure, but don’t assume all are going to hell.


10 posted on 05/24/2013 2:54:28 AM PDT by gemoftheocean (...geez, this all seems so straight forward and logical to me...)
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To: JCBreckenridge
Did you read his sermon? His sermon is pretty clear - he talks about how Christ says, “whatsoever you did for the least of those - you also did for me.”

Yeah, the responses on this thread should be pretty interesting. The Catholics on FR are pretty intent on keeping Christ and heaven to themselves.

BTW, I am a Catholic.

11 posted on 05/24/2013 2:56:23 AM PDT by raybbr (People who still support Obama are either a Marxist or a moron. No, they are both.)
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To: gemoftheocean

I concur that all are redeemed by the Cross, but not that all have been saved.

Salvation occurs upon forgiveness and forgiveness occurs upon faith in His work on the Cross.

I still am looking for the passage in Mark to which he references his statement.


12 posted on 05/24/2013 2:58:32 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: DaveMSmith

Would this mean non-Christians ca go to heaven?


13 posted on 05/24/2013 3:02:19 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: stuartcr

No. It means the Pope is in error.


14 posted on 05/24/2013 3:12:37 AM PDT by Jemian
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To: stuartcr

What of the Good Samaritan? (Luke 10:28-38) ... “Go and do likewise.” - Jesus didn’t seem to judge based on belief.


15 posted on 05/24/2013 3:14:19 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith

The Pope is sounding more like Wesley than Augustine, not that Wesley would condone disbelief, but there seems to be an abundance of choice and personal responsibility in the Pope’s statements.


16 posted on 05/24/2013 3:15:35 AM PDT by pallis
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To: DaveMSmith

I’ll start out by saying that Christian religious figures are so often misquoted and represented that I wouldn’t trust this articles claims without checking.

But I want to ask what is good to an Atheist? Separated from any traditional value system or faith, “good” can mean all sorts of things.

Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot all thought they were doing “good” according to their worldview.

So for a person to tell an Atheist “just do good”, I’m worried what their idea of good will be.

Isn’t that where totalitarian dystopias come from?


17 posted on 05/24/2013 3:17:32 AM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: DaveMSmith

Beats me. I always thought that the Pope was man’s direct line to Jesus.


18 posted on 05/24/2013 3:17:54 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: Mount Athos
I wouldn’t trust this articles claims without checking.

I waited for a Catholic source before posting. This is all over the internet.

19 posted on 05/24/2013 3:21:18 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: pallis

Pope Francis is sounding more like Jesus everyday.


20 posted on 05/24/2013 3:21:40 AM PDT by SubMareener (Save us from Quarterly Freepathons! Become a MONTHLY DONOR!)
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To: SubMareener

I haven’t been paying a lot of attention, but I take heart in what you say.


21 posted on 05/24/2013 3:30:06 AM PDT by pallis
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: DaveMSmith
John 14:6
New International Version (NIV)

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Funny, I see nothing in Jesus' words about doing good or being an atheist who gets saved anyway.

Ephesians 2:8-9
New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Still nothing about being saved by works. The Lord has mercy on whom He has mercy and compassion on whom He has compassion so I will not judge who is saved and who is not, only our Savior can, but I am very disappointed in any Christian who preaches a gospel of works, thus denying the critical importance of Christ's work on the Cross.

23 posted on 05/24/2013 3:39:02 AM PDT by OrangeHoof (Our economy won't heal until one particular black man is unemployed.)
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To: Mount Athos

I don’t think that the word “just” was there.


24 posted on 05/24/2013 3:40:55 AM PDT by Mercat
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To: Duke of Milan
Pope Francis is sounding more like the antichrist everyday.

Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."
Romans 3:11,There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.

Who is right, God speaking through Paul(and Isaiah and the Prophets) or a man, the Pope, who says the opposite? He has the spirit of antichrist because he speaks as dragon.
25 posted on 05/24/2013 3:47:14 AM PDT by Duke of Milan
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To: Cvengr
I still am looking for the passage in Mark to which he references his statement.

Mark 9:38. This passage does not, nor does anything in Scripture, support the pope's position.

26 posted on 05/24/2013 3:55:33 AM PDT by good1 (Valiant for the Truth)
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To: Cvengr

I’m with you.

Unless a man be born again....


27 posted on 05/24/2013 3:57:15 AM PDT by Salamander (The only things that last forever are memories and sorrow.)
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To: Vendome

How much to buy my way?

I’m kinda lazy.

:-\


28 posted on 05/24/2013 3:58:13 AM PDT by Salamander (The only things that last forever are memories and sorrow.)
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To: DaveMSmith

Well this is going to be an interesting thread.
Christ can save whomever he wants. If that was the point, then ok.
If it was that you don’t need God to be saved, then he just talked his way out of a job. Shut the place down and sell it off.

I suspect it was taken out of context.


29 posted on 05/24/2013 4:02:47 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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.


30 posted on 05/24/2013 4:04:24 AM PDT by dynoman (Objectivity is the essence of intelligence. - Marylin vos Savant)
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To: redgolum
If you click over to the religion forum, there is thread there on the daily mass which covers this homily. It looks like it is quoted in full.

I spend time on another message board and their take away was all you have to do is be a "nice" person and you go to heaven. The Pope said so! Why they put any stock in what the Pope says, being generally non-religious, is beyond me.

31 posted on 05/24/2013 4:10:07 AM PDT by Dianna
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To: Duke of Milan
I am trying to reconcile his words to the gospel and I will leave room for the idea that there are those who "do good" even when they are not acting out of Christian faith, even atheists, and we should not hinder those who are acting charitably - feeding the poor, healing the sick, etc. even if their motives are impure.

But in no way do I believe that one finds salvation that way if there is no confession of sin and profession of faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins, else it makes Christ's death on the Cross pointless.

Nonetheless, many preach a gospel of works rather than a gospel of grace:

Matthew 7:21-23:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Faith produces fruit in the form of works and by our fruit (good deeds) we shall be known but good deeds alone do not lead to salvation. Or why else would Jesus say:

John 15:5

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

You cannot be a fruitful branch and yet deny the vine.

32 posted on 05/24/2013 4:13:01 AM PDT by OrangeHoof (Our economy won't heal until one particular black man is unemployed.)
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To: Salamander

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Seems clear enough.
***************************
Bingo! So right. Well, What did we learn from this papal announcement? We learned the Pope can be dead wrong.

That blows papal infallibility right out the window, doesn’t it?


33 posted on 05/24/2013 4:20:18 AM PDT by Cyclops08
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To: OrangeHoof

Although I completely understand why so many here have misunderstood some of what the Pope has said here, he is not saying that atheists will go to Heaven or that they are saved. He is referring to redemption which is what Christ did for all so that all have a *choice* on whether to accept his salvation. Atheists are redeemed but they are not saved until they accept Christ. Again, I completely understand why so many think he is referring to salvation.

On the other hand, I find this homily troubling because it certainly seems to put atheists on the same level as Christians (and I won’t get into Protestants vs Catholics here). Unless I am completely misreading him, he refers to atheists as “children of God” and the Catholic Faith (as far as I know) refers to the Baptized as “Children of God” not all people everywhere. [I am not sure if the article in the OP quotes this part, but I have been involved in a few discussions on this homily so forgive me if it is not there].

So, as a practicing Catholic, I am more troubled by the fact that it appears that what he has said here doesn’t even jive with Catholic teaching. Maybe I am wrong, but I’m pretty sure you don’t become a child of God without baptism.


34 posted on 05/24/2013 4:24:11 AM PDT by piusv
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To: gemoftheocean

If an atheist consistently does the WILL OF THE FATHER then he too can be saved.


If he accepts the blood of Christ as atonement for his sins, yes he can. But then he wouldn’t be an Atheist.

The thing about works is this: Works do not save, but they are proof of salvation of a BELIEVER. If the person is not a believer, the works are in vain, at least regarding salvation. And the reason is pretty simple: Even the best man on the planet falls short of God’s glory. Works do not save.

I like this comparison using exercise to represent good works: Imagine two guys that are going to train to jump the grand canyon. One guy works and works and works and builds powerful leg muscles. The other guy eats at mcdonalds and sits in front of the TV all day. Which one is going to win?

Neither.

Works don’t get you eternal life. Acceptance of the blood of Christ for attonement of your sins gets you there.


35 posted on 05/24/2013 4:26:46 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: piusv
Here is the portion of the homily that I am referring to:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

36 posted on 05/24/2013 4:28:36 AM PDT by piusv
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To: DaveMSmith

What of the Good Samaritan? (Luke 10:28-38) ... “Go and do likewise.” - Jesus didn’t seem to judge based on belief.


That scripture is not about salvation. That scripture is about how to treat your fellow man. And it was addressed to Jews coming from some very xenophobic beliefs that can be referenced in the OT.

Christianity is about two things and you can even see it in the ten commandments: Your relationship with your fellow man and your relationship with your creator - and the former is really a subset of the latter. Jesus story about the Good Samaritan was about the former and it was important to show the Jews that it was not their heritage that made them God’s people.

In fact, look at when Mary tried to have an audience with Jesus. He basically dissed her. When He was told his mother and brothers were outside and wanted to see Him He practically denounced the blood relation to her when He said, “who are My mother and brothers but those who do the will of my Father”.

Faith without works is dead, true, but works without faith are useless, regarding salvation. You will enjoy a happier life until you do die, however. It’s an ecclesiastes thing.


37 posted on 05/24/2013 4:32:44 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf
I don't believe the Pope is equating the good works of an atheist to the path to salvation. HOWEVER, I understand why it seems so.

Honestly, the Pope should stop speaking off the cuff and write, edit and re-edit his homilies. They are all over the internet/the world these days...and they will be misconstrued.

38 posted on 05/24/2013 4:33:49 AM PDT by piusv
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To: Keli Kilohana

You must cleave yourself to God and His Word. That includes what he said in that quaint old testament, nothing overrides God’s Word nor the fact that no mater how one interprets salvation it must include cleaving oneself to God and God’s Word.

To preach outside of that, or against that is just mind blowing.


39 posted on 05/24/2013 4:36:47 AM PDT by brent13a
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To: piusv

If we are all a unique creation of the Father, and if His sacrifice was once, and for all, then why are we not all children of God?

In my opinion, I think you are pretty close in your interpretation. I would add that generally speaking, we have opportunities of grace, and a desire to do good, as inspiration from God.

Should an atheist seek to feed the poor and bury the dead, we should rejoice and commend them. They are responding to God’s call to charity.

Let us hope in doing so, the atheist will be more open to the reality of God and draw closer to Him.

We would all do well to remember that who goes to Heaven is a Management decisions. Those of us on Earth are merely in Sales.


40 posted on 05/24/2013 4:37:43 AM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: piusv
Thanks for your post.

My take is the Pope is looking for a starting point - Charity and Goodwill first and faith will grow from there. If one looks to do good (with the implication they will reject evil), then the 'faith of a mustard seed' can be planted.

Looking at 12 step programs, I see this all the time - they all are programs of repentance. I believe once started, the Lord will guide us to eternal life, thus salvation - whatever we call Him.

BTW. the 'heaven' in the title is from the source, catholic.org - that's why I added salvation to the keywords.

41 posted on 05/24/2013 4:41:16 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: gemoftheocean
"If an atheist consistently does the WILL OF THE FATHER then he too can be saved."

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them,This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent" (John 6:28,29)

For an atheist to do the work of God he must first cease to be an atheist.

42 posted on 05/24/2013 4:42:56 AM PDT by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: cuban leaf
Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Eternal LIFE is not salvation?

43 posted on 05/24/2013 4:44:23 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: SpirituTuo
If we are all a unique creation of the Father, and if His sacrifice was once, and for all, then why are we not all children of God?

Because I'm pretty sure both Scripture and Church Sacred Tradition make it clear that it is in Baptism that we become children or sons of God. We may all be made in the image and likeness of God but that doesn't necessarily mean we are all children of God. Once again, it is in accepting His Son that we become part of God's Family. Atheists (and others ) have not done that (yet).

44 posted on 05/24/2013 4:47:24 AM PDT by piusv
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To: DaveMSmith
"- whatever we call Him"

Hopefully I'm just reading you wrong but just in case...

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12)

45 posted on 05/24/2013 4:49:10 AM PDT by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: Vendome
In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.

Seems like he is just stating what the Bible already tells us - Jesus died for ALL of us and ALL of our sins. ANYONE who seeks him and confesses their sinfulness and acknowledges Him as Lord and Savior can be saved.

It would seem that his gist was that Christ saves you - not any particular religion or institution. I find it refreshing to see a Pope who doesn't consider membership in the Catholic Church to be a requirement for salvation. The use of "catholic" in the Apostle's Creed had nothing to do with the Catholic Church - it was a term for open-to-all/all-purpose, etc.

46 posted on 05/24/2013 4:54:29 AM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: SubMareener

He sounds more like an American to me...in a good way, that is.


47 posted on 05/24/2013 4:55:18 AM PDT by equaviator (There's nothing like the universe to bring you down to earth.)
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To: piusv

Honestly, the Pope should stop speaking off the cuff and write, edit and re-edit his homilies. They are all over the internet/the world these days...and they will be misconstrued.


I know how he feels. We’ve all experienced that. ;-)


48 posted on 05/24/2013 4:57:20 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: DaveMSmith
"Eternal LIFE is not salvation?"

Not necessarily...

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

49 posted on 05/24/2013 4:58:12 AM PDT by mitch5501 ("make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things ye shall never fall")
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To: DaveMSmith
Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!

The funny thing is that I first heard this quote reported to be my an atheist (who had no reason to make this up), except that he didn't mention the part about going to heaven, probably because he has no interest in it (and doesn't believe it's there any way).

50 posted on 05/24/2013 5:00:54 AM PDT by Tanniker Smith (Rome didn't fall in a day, either.)
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