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Apostolic Succession and the Roman Catholic Church
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church ^

Posted on 06/13/2013 10:02:02 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

Question:

I have a few questions for you about the "OPC." First, do you teach apostolic succession, and, if so, do you believe ministers outside of the OPC are not really ministers? Second, do you believe that the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" are for today, i.e., are healing, tongues, prophetic revelation, and miracles as led by the Holy Spirit actively manifest in our modern churches? Finally, how are you different from the Roman Catholic Church?

Answer:

Thank you for your questions. Let me take them one at a time.

1. "Do you teach apostolic succession, and, if so, do you believe ministers outside of the OPC are not really ministers?"

It is helpful to distinguish between "apostolic succession" and "apostolicity." By the doctrine of apostolic succession the Roman Catholic Church asserts its claim of an uninterrupted and continuous line of succession extending from the twelve apostles through the bishops they ordained right up to the bishops of the present day. According to this doctrine, the apostles appointed the first bishops as their successors, granting to them their own teaching authority, which continues until the end of the age (see paragraph 77 of Catechism of the Catholic Church).

Let me direct you to other relevant passages of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The significance of the Roman Catholic doctrine of apostolic succession is immediately apparent in its definition of a "particular church." A particular church "refers to a community of the Christian faithful in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession" (paragraph 833). "[I]t is for bishops as the successors of the apostles to hand on the 'gift of the Spirit,' the 'apostolic line'" (paragraph 1576). Without apostolic succession there is no church.

In close connection with the idea of apostolic succession is the transmission from generation to generation of the "Tradition." By Tradition, Catholics refer to that part of the church's "doctrine, life, and worship" that is distinct from Scripture (paragraph 78). This Tradition, Catholics argue, does not contradict Scripture, and maintains faithfully the unwritten but authoritative teachings and traditions of the apostles and early church fathers. Tradition is to be believed by the members of the church. It is the apostolic succession of bishops that perpetuates and guarantees both the faithful teaching of Scripture and Tradition.

Protestants have reacted strongly against the doctrine of apostolic succession. They have done so in a number of ways, historical and theological. One of these ways is by affirming the apostolicity of the church. Apostolicity may be defined as receiving and obeying apostolic doctrine as it is set forth in the New Testament. In matters of doctrine and life, Protestants permit no ultimate appeal to traditions that are distinct from canonical Scripture. For example, the Westminster Confession of Faith 1.10 says this:

The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.

Absolutely no provision is made for an authoritative, unwritten tradition. In fact, it is to the touchstone of Scripture that all traditions, including those of Roman Catholicism, must be brought.

Protestants have correctly observed that it is the appeal to Tradition that has made possible many doctrines and practices of Roman Catholicism that have no basis in Scripture. These include (to name only a handful) the papacy, papal infallibility, purgatory, the mass, the immaculate conception, and the assumption of Mary.

Even if it were historically provable that there was an unbroken succession of bishops from the first century to the present day Roman Catholic bishops (and it is not), Protestants would still demur to claims of Roman authority based upon apostolic succession. It is the apostolicity of the church that counts. And it is precisely by the standard of apostolicity that the Roman Catholic Church is measured and found wanting.

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church recognizes as ministers those men ordained to that office by true churches, which are identified by the attribute of apostolicity.

2. "Do you believe that the 'gifts of the Holy Spirit' are for today, i.e., are healing, tongues, prophetic revelation, and miracles as led by the Holy Spirit actively manifest in our modern churches?"

Orthodox Presbyterian are cessationists with regard to the word gifts. For a very careful exposition of scriptural teaching regarding the word gifts and healing, I refer you to the Orthodox Presbyterian Church's "Report of the Committee on the Baptism and Gifts of the Holy Spirit," which may be retrieved at http://opc.org/GA/giftsHS.html.

3. "How is the Orthodox Presbyterian Church different from the Roman Catholic Church?"

Thousands of books and articles have been written that carefully distinguish between Roman Catholicism and churches, like the OPC, which belong to the historic Protestant tradition. Please permit me to point you to two articles that will assist you in your studies.

I recommend "Resolutions for Roman Catholic & Evangelical Dialogue," which may be retrieved at http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=876&var3=authorbio&var4=AutRes&var5=1. This statement is quite short, but points to a number of crucial differences between historic Protestants and Catholics.

Michael Horton has written an excellent article pointing to the differences between historic Protestants and Catholics on the doctrine of justification. "Justification, Vital Now & Always" may be retrieved at

http://www.christianity.com/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID307086|CHID597662|CIID1415598,00.html.

Let me also suggest a brief survey of the history and beliefs of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, which may be retrieved at http://opc.org/what_is/the_opc.html.

While the differences between the Roman Catholic Church and historic Protestantism are many, let me focus on the one difference that must always be kept in mind, namely, the issue of authority. In every debate between Roman Catholics and historic Protestants, whether it be over the nature of the papacy, the place of tradition, justification, the role of Mary, the sacraments, or any other disputed matter, the question of authority will always surface. By what standard are matters of religious controversy judged? Historic Protestants will appeal to the Bible as the final authority in all matters of Christian faith and practice.

Roman Catholics, on the other hand, appeal to Scripture and Tradition as authoritatively interpreted by the papacy and its courts. The >i>Catechism of the Catholic Church claims this:

The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head." This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope. The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered' (paragraphs 881-882).

People often express surprise at the broad differences between Roman Catholics and historic Protestants. The differences are not only understandable, but also necessary, when examined from the standpoint of authority. As long as Protestants and Catholics appeal to two different authorities, an unbridgeable gulf separates them.

The Westminster Confession of Faith states clearly the historic Protestant position on the question of authority:

The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men. (Westminster Confession of Faith, 1.6).

The additions to which the authors of the Confession refer include not only the traditions of the papacy, but also the papal institution itself. The source of the irreconcilable differences between the Roman Catholic Church and historic Protestantism rests here. Reconciliation between historic Protestants and Roman Catholics would require either that Catholics abandon the papacy and its traditions, or that Protestants surrender their bedrock conviction that Scripture is the only infallible rule of faith and practice. The issue of authority leaves no room for compromise.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholicobsession
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To: CynicalBear

You’re not Catholic. Why is your opinion on these matters important?


101 posted on 06/14/2013 3:27:48 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Un Pere, Une Mere, C'est elementaire)
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To: CynicalBear

“Peter’s commission by Christ was specifically to the Jews.”

That’s not what you said. You said, ‘nobody else but Paul could minister to the Gentiles.’ This is false. Yes, Paul’s mission was to the Gentiles, but he was not the only one who ministered to them.

“Paul established the church in Rome.”

Not in scripture.

“You can deny what scripture says”

Except that Scripture *doesn’t* say this.

“they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision”

You said it was exclusive.

It was the authority of Peter to decide where Paul should go. Do you not see this?

“Show from scripture where he did or that he was ever in Rome.”

Paul never preaches from Rome in Scripture.


102 posted on 06/14/2013 3:32:20 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Un Pere, Une Mere, C'est elementaire)
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To: JCBreckenridge
>>That’s not what you said. You said, ‘nobody else but Paul could minister to the Gentiles.’<<

Please show me where I said that.

>>You said it was exclusive.<<

Pleas show me where I said that.

If you can't I will simply realize that Catholics have a serious problem with injecting what they would like both in what other people say and in scripture.

103 posted on 06/14/2013 1:11:10 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

And I conclude that CB likes to disseminate.


104 posted on 06/15/2013 3:14:49 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Un Pere, Une Mere, C'est elementaire)
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To: JCBreckenridge; smvoice; RnMomof7; metmom; boatbums; caww; Iscool; presently no screen name; ...

Yeah, once more a person in a discussion with you didn’t say what you allege they said. If you can’t stand on what you believe and have to make up stuff it would be better not to get into the discussions.


105 posted on 06/15/2013 10:29:08 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: JCBreckenridge
>> You’re not Catholic. Why is your opinion on these matters important?<<

It’s not my opinion. If you have noticed I quote scripture to refute the error of the RCC. It’s important to alert those who God is truly calling to the truth. I will not stand by and let error and the deceit of the RCC stand without calling attention.

106 posted on 06/15/2013 10:34:04 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Rome-Jerusalem, Peter-James....just details, right?


107 posted on 06/15/2013 12:08:41 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: CynicalBear

“It’s not my opinion.”

Yeah it is your opinion.

“I quote scripture to refute the error of the RCC”

Ok. So would you quote the Quran to prove muslims wrong?


108 posted on 06/15/2013 12:14:03 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Un Pere, Une Mere, C'est elementaire)
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To: CynicalBear

Yawn. You explicitly said that it was Paul alone who was to minister to the gentiles. Then when actually exposed to scripture it comes out that scripture even says that Paul ministered along with Barnabas.

I’m glad you’ve now accepted the truth.

Have you figured out the part where Paul’s mission is decided by Peter?


109 posted on 06/15/2013 12:15:43 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Un Pere, Une Mere, C'est elementaire)
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To: CynicalBear

YACvPT?


110 posted on 06/15/2013 1:28:54 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Alex Murphy
Since the Scriptures make no mention or allowance for any so-called “apostolic succession” what can one say about the teaching that there is except such teaching is false?

Yes, I know some will quote a verse or two they say supports the idea but those quoted verses have nothing to do with any imagined “succession”.

111 posted on 06/15/2013 4:23:30 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: CynicalBear

Yep...ran into that myself early on...some can even continue a conversation with themselves long after the topic has been lost and no one is posting!..Makes ya go hum-mmm.


112 posted on 06/15/2013 5:10:05 PM PDT by caww
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To: CynicalBear
Peter’s commission by Christ was specifically to the Jews. Paul’s was specifically to the Gentiles. Paul established the church in Rome. You can deny what scripture says all you want but it’s plainly stated.

Acts 9:15-16 15 But the Lord said to him (Ananias), “Go, for he (Saul) is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Acts 13:46-48 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 14:27 27 And when they (Paul and Barnabas) arrived and gathered the church together, they declared all that God had done with them, and how he had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:22-26 22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23 with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:19-21 19 And I said, ‘Lord, they themselves know that in one synagogue after another I imprisoned and beat those who believed in you. 20 And when the blood of Stephen your witness was being shed, I myself was standing by and approving and watching over the garments of those who killed him.’ 21 And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”

Acts 23:11 11 The following night the Lord stood by him (Paul) and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified to the facts about me in Jerusalem, so you must testify also in Rome.”

Acts 26:12-18 12 “In this connection I journeyed to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 At midday, O king, I saw on the way a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, that shone around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16 But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, 17 delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles— to whom I am sending you 18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 11:13-14 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

Romans 15:15-21 15 But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. 17 In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. 18 For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ; 20 and thus I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else’s foundation, 21 but as it is written, “Those who have never been told of him will see, and those who have never heard will understand.”

Galatians 1:15-17 15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone; 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Galatians 2:1-2 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me. 2 I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.

Galatians 2:7-9 7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised 8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), 9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Ephesians 3:1-3 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly.

Ephesians 3:7-8 7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,....

1 Timothy 2:5-7 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle ( I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

2 Timothy 4:17 But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion’s mouth.

113 posted on 06/15/2013 6:21:42 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: JCBreckenridge
That’s what we see in Acts - the Apostles selected another.

And now we see a Catholic appealing to the authority of Scripture to justify the Roman Catholic church's actions.

The hypocrisy is staggering.

114 posted on 06/15/2013 6:28:43 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: JCBreckenridge; caww
caww: (post 13) “The Unity most Protestants have is in the person of Jesus Christ.”

JCB:You said that all protestants are in union with one another.

Just wow....

What a stellar example of the deception of the enemy.

caww did not say that at all. You almost completely reworded what she said.

115 posted on 06/15/2013 6:34:30 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: JCBreckenridge; AEMILIUS PAULUS
Look at my example of Vicky Gene Robinson. He’s not Catholic. He’s an episcopalian.

So, when it's time to make Protestantism look bad, a Catholic will drag an episcopalian into the fray.

Is that the same Episcopalian denominations that the Catholic church is accepting priests from to become Catholic priests?

116 posted on 06/15/2013 6:37:32 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: JCBreckenridge; CatherineofAragon; caww
Ok, so all protestants aren’t in union with one another.

How does one determine which protestants are in union with one another?

Do I need a flowchart?

No, you need reading comprehension lessons.

117 posted on 06/15/2013 6:39:54 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: agere_contra; AEMILIUS PAULUS; BipolarBob; caww; boatbums; Greetings_Puny_Humans; HarleyD; ...
But they'll accept scripture as canonical based on ... what authority? The authority of the Church. The authority of the Apostles.

Then the often expressed premise you share is basically that the stewards of Divine revelation (having historical descent) are perpetually the assuredly infallible stewards of it. Thus those whom it rejects have no authority? Is that correct?

Note that the issue is that of authority, not that of the need for the teaching office, but its basis for authority and the claims of Rome to be the uniquely infallible interpreters by which men have have full assurance of truth.

What is the basis for your full she is (Scripture, etc.)?

118 posted on 06/15/2013 6:44:58 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: John O
Protestants are no more in unity with them than Pope Francis is just another homosexual priest molesting altar boys.

Now, are those faggot priests who molested all those kids Catholics? or have they turned their back on God and the church they supposedly belonged to and excommunicated themselves?

So if you can tar all protestants with a faggot non-Christian, then you can be tarred with those faggot child molestors.

Never addressed by the recipient of your post, I see......

Excellent points. Thank you.

119 posted on 06/15/2013 6:45:14 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
Thanks metmom! I had actually missed some of them. This is just another in a long line of topics that should alert Catholics to the lies of the RCC. I was particularly struck by the verse that sent Paul to Rome after a discussion with a certain uninformed individual on this topic.

Acts 23:11 11 The following night the Lord stood by him (Paul) and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified to the facts about me in Jerusalem, so you must testify also in Rome.

A direct command and commission from Jesus no less.

120 posted on 06/15/2013 6:47:33 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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