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Pope: it's wrong to think our enemies must go to hell
cna ^ | June 20, 2013

Posted on 06/20/2013 2:39:32 PM PDT by NYer

Pope Francis leads the Bishops of Italy in a solemn Profession of Faith in St. Peter's Basilica for their 65th General Assembly May 23, 2013. Credit: Stephen Drsicoll/CNA.

Vatican City, Jun 20, 2013 / 01:00 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Francis stressed that it's false to think our enemies “must go to hell” during his daily Mass at the Vatican's Saint Martha House June 20.

“You cannot pray with enemies in your heart,” he said June 20. “With (both) brothers and enemies in your heart, you cannot pray.”

“They must go to hell, right? I will have nothing to do with them!” the Bishop of Rome said sarcastically.

The Pope told how Jesus noted, “if we do not forgive others, neither will the Father forgive us our sins.”

“It’s so hard to forgive others, it is really difficult because we always have that regret inside,” he said.

“We think ‘you did this to me, you wait … I’ll repay him the favor.'”

Pope Francis gave his homily based on the day’s Gospel, which tells how Jesus taught his disciples to pray the ‘Our Father.”

“We have a father very close to us, who embraces us,” the Roman pontiff said.

“All these worries, concerns that we have, let's leave them to the Father; he knows what we need.”

“But Father, what? My father?”

“No, our Father!” he exclaimed. “Because I am not an only child, none of us are, and if I cannot be a brother, I can hardly become a child of the Father, because he is a father to all.”

Pope Francis underscored that if we are not “at peace with my brothers, I cannot say ‘Father’ to him.”  

Saying “Father, I have sinned” is “the key of every prayer, to feel loved by a father,” he reflected.

“Jesus immediately gives us a piece of advice in prayer: ‘in praying, do not babble,’ do not make worldly noises, vain noises.”

Pope Francis explained that Jesus teaches us not to turn to God with “so many words” because “he knows everything.”

“And he warned that prayer is not a magical thing – there is no magic with prayer.”

The Bishop of Rome noted “someone once told me that when he went to a witch doctor they said a lot of words to heal him, but that is pagan.”

“You must pray to him who generated you, who gave you life,” Pope Francis said.

“Not to everyone – everyone is too anonymous.”

“To whom do I pray, to a cosmic God?” he asked.

Praying to a 'cosmic God' is a polytheistic model that comes from “a rather light culture,” and is too impersonal.

“To whom do I pray, to the almighty God? He is too far off, ah, I can’t hear him. Neither did Jesus.”

“You must pray to the Father,” Pope Francis affirmed.

“The first” word is Father and it is “the key” to prayer.

He stressed that “without saying, without feeling that word, you cannot pray.”

“Jesus has promised us the Holy Spirit, it is he who teaches us from within, from the heart, how to say ‘Father’ and how to say ‘our.'”


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Prayer
KEYWORDS: abba; catholic; francis; lordsprayer; ourfather; pope; prayer; romancatholicism

1 posted on 06/20/2013 2:39:32 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 06/20/2013 2:39:49 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

So is it still wrong for me to wish they would? Do I have to go to confession for that?


3 posted on 06/20/2013 2:41:42 PM PDT by Mastador1 (I'll take a bad dog over a good politician any day!)
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To: NYer

Hmm. Is he going to argue that there’s a chance that Osama bin Laden ended up anywhere else?


4 posted on 06/20/2013 2:41:43 PM PDT by MeganC (A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll never need one again.)
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To: Mastador1

I wish people would get their earthly punishments, but now that we no longer have a justice system, they don’t.

But as for eternity, who knows? Maybe they repented at the last moment, maybe from eternity they will do some good in penance. That’s why Catholics always prayed for the souls in Purgatory, because people who were neither damned nor on the fast track to Heaven were always considered to be powerful and able to help us here because they were trying to work out their own repentance.


5 posted on 06/20/2013 2:49:31 PM PDT by livius
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To: NYer
America's leading enemy doesn't want to go to hell - too lazy - he expects to bring hell right here to our country.


6 posted on 06/20/2013 2:57:56 PM PDT by Pollster1 ("Shall not be infringed" is unambiguous.)
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To: Mastador1; livius
So is it still wrong for me to wish they would? Do I have to go to confession for that?

Here is your escort to the confessional ...


"Young man, have you forgotten the 2nd greatest commandment? Love your neighbor as yourself"

7 posted on 06/20/2013 3:17:23 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

The Vatican has enemies? That’s different.


8 posted on 06/20/2013 3:18:10 PM PDT by kempster
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To: MeganC

Hmm. Is he going to argue that there’s a chance that Osama bin Laden ended up anywhere else?
_______

Whether or not that chance exists is a matter between bin Laden and God.


9 posted on 06/20/2013 3:20:25 PM PDT by pax_et_bonum (Never Forget the Seals of Extortion 17 - and God Bless America)
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To: NYer; Mastador1; livius

Lol!


10 posted on 06/20/2013 3:21:50 PM PDT by pax_et_bonum (Never Forget the Seals of Extortion 17 - and God Bless America)
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To: NYer

Hate is someone letting their dog shit in your driveway and then pushing your nose in it. You HATE them for it!

The same applies for someone who takes your freedoms and lifetime savings along with making you live in the Bizzarro world of illegal aliens, criminals, queers and child molesters and others who have become a protected species in the name of Political Correctness.

Yes.............hate is real and wishing damnation on those who have done you wrong is appropriate.

What a fool!


11 posted on 06/20/2013 3:22:33 PM PDT by DH (Once the tainted finger of government touches anything the rot begins)
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To: NYer

Here is my interpretation of this sermon:

Perhaps this is part of his message:
Subtle undertones about different cultures around the world where the people profess to be “Catholic” or “Christian” yet they maintain pagan rituals that may include “cursing” others. (Cursing can mean wishing physical harm or eternal damnation.)

Remember the Pope’s background and his upbringing and how this may have shaped his worldview beyond the walls of the Vatican.


12 posted on 06/20/2013 3:22:59 PM PDT by ruralvoter
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To: DH
What a fool!

I take it you are not a christian. (Matt. 22:17-21

13 posted on 06/20/2013 3:31:38 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

Yep, I had her in second grade, Sister Mary Rapanuckle. And of course there was Monsignor Ripyourearoff!


14 posted on 06/20/2013 3:38:17 PM PDT by Mastador1 (I'll take a bad dog over a good politician any day!)
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To: NYer

He is 100% correct. From now on, I’ll wish them to go to Detroit, or maybe New Jersey.


15 posted on 06/20/2013 3:41:29 PM PDT by TexasPaul (TexasPaul)
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To: pax_et_bonum

“Whether or not that chance exists is a matter between bin Laden and God.”


God pretty well ruled that out. Bin Laden is in hell.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


16 posted on 06/20/2013 3:57:08 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Okay.

So you know what is held between another person and God at the moment of that person’s death.

I don’t.


17 posted on 06/20/2013 4:28:30 PM PDT by pax_et_bonum (Never Forget the Seals of Extortion 17 - and God Bless America)
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To: pax_et_bonum

“So you know what is held between another person and God at the moment of that person’s death.

I don’t.”


I imagine it was the bullet passing through his brain right then.


18 posted on 06/20/2013 4:43:45 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: NYer

I’m sure that for most people it is wrong to think your enemies are going to hell. However, it is a certain that MY enemies are, in fact, Hell bound. That is just the way it is.


19 posted on 06/20/2013 4:44:05 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

You’re just itchin’ for a fight, aren’t you?

:-)

Ain’t bitin’.


20 posted on 06/20/2013 4:46:37 PM PDT by pax_et_bonum (Never Forget the Seals of Extortion 17 - and God Bless America)
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To: NYer
...because he is a father to all.”

Er... our Lord didn't see it that way. We all start out as children of the devil. As our Lord reminds us, our will is against God's will. Some of us are adopted into our Father's family as He gives us the desire to follow His will.

There are the righteous and the unrighteous. The only thing that separates us is which way our wills our bent. But that makes a difference as to who our father actually is.

21 posted on 06/20/2013 4:56:35 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: NYer

It’s not that we “think” anyone is going to Hell. It’s very clear in the Bible that the unsaved will go to Hell.

I’m recalling a conversation I had last week with my R.C. friend. As a Baptist, I believe that the Bible is the Final Authority. She told me the Catholics don’t believe that. They think there’s a lot of good stuff in the Bible, but the final authority is what their human leaders pass on to them.


22 posted on 06/20/2013 5:16:48 PM PDT by MayflowerMadam
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To: MayflowerMadam

Well, your friend is wrong. But, since you raised the subject, here is a question for you. At the time of the early christians, there were many different books and letters in circulation. Q: Who decided which books should be in the Canon of Scripture ... and ... by what authority did they make that determination?


23 posted on 06/20/2013 5:28:01 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: HarleyD

Pope Francis was referencing Matthew 6:9-15. He is explaining the Lord’s prayer. That was the scripture reading for today.


24 posted on 06/20/2013 5:31:29 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: DH

**Yes.............hate is real and wishing damnation on those who have done you wrong is appropriate.**

So is that what you wish God to do in your own case?

“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”

“Love your neighbor as yourself.”


25 posted on 06/20/2013 5:35:32 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: MayflowerMadam

Holy Tradition is not the “final” authority as your state.

Catholicism is like a three legged stool supported by

the Holy Bible, Holy Tradition and the Magisterium


26 posted on 06/20/2013 5:42:08 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: MeganC

Who can ever know ... maybe at the last moment as the door was being knocked down ...... nah I doubt it too....

But hey if he did, we can still think he’s going to paying for a lot of stuff in purgatory for a very long time.

Best of both worlds. :-)


27 posted on 06/20/2013 6:43:49 PM PDT by wonkowasright (Wonko from outside the asylum)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Does this imply RCs are friends with the fallen angels?


28 posted on 06/20/2013 8:15:25 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: NYer
Who decided which books should be in the Canon of Scripture ... and ... by what authority did they make that determination?

God did, by his own authority...

Logically, one would think it's up to the body of Christ, the church (and by no stretch of the imagination does that mean the Catholic religion) to determine which is the true canon...

So how many of those who call themselves Christians accept that the Majority Texts, the Masoretic Texts have books in them that do not belong in the Canon...

I would say probably none...

Then, how many of those same Christians would say that the Catholic version of the scriptures have books in them that are not inspired; do not belong in the scriptures??? A great many...

So it's easy...The body of Christ has spoken...

29 posted on 06/20/2013 8:21:53 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Salvation
Holy Tradition is not the “final” authority as your state. Catholicism is like a three legged stool supported by the Holy Bible, Holy Tradition and the Magisterium

Christianity has only one leg...

30 posted on 06/20/2013 8:24:01 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool

A gentle correction is order.

Both Salvation and NYer are RIGHT on this one.


31 posted on 06/21/2013 3:23:30 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: NYer

What the Pope means is two ways, which is mean what you pray/say in the Lord’s prayer and pray for the conversion of your enemies.


32 posted on 06/21/2013 3:25:09 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Iscool
God did, by his own authority...

How was this accomplished? To whom was the information conveyed?

33 posted on 06/21/2013 3:31:47 AM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: Iscool

Yet the newer Bibles do allow for the extra seven books as a sign of RESPECT.


34 posted on 06/21/2013 3:40:51 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: All
“You cannot pray with enemies in your heart,” he said June 20. “With (both) brothers and enemies in your heart, you cannot pray.”

“They must go to hell, right? I will have nothing to do with them!” the Bishop of Rome said sarcastically.

The Pope told how Jesus noted, “if we do not forgive others, neither will the Father forgive us our sins.”

“It’s so hard to forgive others, it is really difficult because we always have that regret inside,” he said.

“We think ‘you did this to me, you wait … I’ll repay him the favor.'”

nobody trusts me
they blame me for the fires in town
they say that hell is where i'm bound
and pray that God will speed me

-- from the song "Hard Luck Bad News"
on the Solid Rock release Something New Under The Son
lyrics by Larry Norman


35 posted on 06/21/2013 5:37:28 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: NYer
How was this accomplished? To whom was the information conveyed?

God picked men and inspired them to write the scriptures...

God said he would preserve his words forever...That has just as much truth as when Jesus said, 'I and the Father are one', or, 'Come unto me and I'll give you rest'...

The only bible that all Christians agree that contains only scripture comes from the area where people were first called Christians and is the result of the Received Texts, the Majority Texts, the Masoretic texts...

The Body agrees that that book does not contain more material than God gave us...And either he told the truth and preserved his words, or he didn't...I believe God told the truth...

36 posted on 06/21/2013 10:27:54 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Biggirl
Yet the newer Bibles do allow for the extra seven books as a sign of RESPECT

Respect for who, or what??? And why would anyone care???

37 posted on 06/21/2013 10:29:20 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer

The Lord’s prayer is for believers. God is our Father. He is not the Father of everyone.

Perhaps he just wasn’t clear.


38 posted on 06/21/2013 12:08:24 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Iscool
God picked men and inspired them to write the scriptures...

We all agree that scripture is inspired by God. But before it was compiled into a book, there were hundreds of letters and books in circulation among the various christian communities. Since all of these documents are not in the Bible, who decided which letters and books would be included? How was it decided? By what authority did these individuals make their decision. What about the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Philip, two of the many books in circulation. Who decided that these two books should not be included?

39 posted on 06/21/2013 1:43:22 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: HarleyD

“The Lord’s prayer is for believers. God is our Father. He is not the Father of everyone.”

Sure, he’s the Father of everyone! And, it’s my sincere hope that everyone will know that before they die. Unfortunately, everyone won’t. But they are still Gods children.

(and it is my sincere hope that I don’t regret my first post in the religion forum!)


40 posted on 06/21/2013 2:19:41 PM PDT by saleman
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To: NYer
We all agree that scripture is inspired by God. But before it was compiled into a book, there were hundreds of letters and books in circulation among the various christian communities.

First, let's understand that this is an old Catholic cleche' you are dishing out and I know it's supposed to be a game stopper...

When coming at this argument from a different angle, the Catholic answer to end all is that there couldn't have been any books since the people of that age were illiterate and slow...
It required millions of monks from the Catholic religion to churn out the copies and put binding on them...

But now, with this argument, there were hundreds of copies of books floating around the known world...Just another tactic...

Since all of these documents are not in the Bible, who decided which letters and books would be included? How was it decided? By what authority did these individuals make their decision.

I already answered that, twice...God decided...And he accomplished it...And I think God has the authority to make that decision...We're not talking about pagan books which were written by men alone...

God said that he created the heavens and the earth...Do you believe that??? God also said he would preserve his words...You don't believe that???

What about the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Philip, two of the many books in circulation. Who decided that these two books should not be included?

Again, God did...
Could be that those two books were authentically written by the apostles (but unlikely)...Regardless, God obviously didn't want them in the scriptures...

41 posted on 06/21/2013 3:41:17 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer

No.....I’m not a fool but a realist!


42 posted on 06/21/2013 6:43:28 PM PDT by DH (Once the tainted finger of government touches anything the rot begins)
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To: Salvation

Yeah! Go ahead and live by that credo and see how far it get’s you.

We have already tried that on immigration and see what rewards you have enjoyed from it.


43 posted on 06/21/2013 6:44:58 PM PDT by DH (Once the tainted finger of government touches anything the rot begins)
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To: Mastador1

Christ asked us to pray for our enemies.


44 posted on 06/21/2013 6:45:20 PM PDT by thecodont
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To: thecodont

While I appreciate your Faith, my response was in truth facetious. I guess I,m not that devout because I have to ask.
So you are saying it’s not okay to pray for our enemies to go to hell?


45 posted on 06/21/2013 7:03:57 PM PDT by Mastador1 (I'll take a bad dog over a good politician any day!)
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To: Iscool
God did

How? Through what means? Who are the men that sat down and examined each and every writing to determine if it was inspired? The book did not compile itself.

46 posted on 06/22/2013 4:16:27 AM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: saleman
Sure, he’s the Father of everyone! And, it’s my sincere hope that everyone will know that before they die. Unfortunately, everyone won’t. But they are still Gods children.

This is pycho-babble. It is not what the scriptures teaches nor what our Lord Jesus stated. But it sure sounds good.

47 posted on 06/23/2013 5:33:26 PM PDT by HarleyD
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