Skip to comments.Pope: it's wrong to think our enemies must go to hell
Posted on 06/20/2013 2:39:32 PM PDT by NYer
.- Pope Francis stressed that it's false to think our enemies “must go to hell” during his daily Mass at the Vatican's Saint Martha House June 20.
“You cannot pray with enemies in your heart,” he said June 20. “With (both) brothers and enemies in your heart, you cannot pray.”
“They must go to hell, right? I will have nothing to do with them!” the Bishop of Rome said sarcastically.
The Pope told how Jesus noted, “if we do not forgive others, neither will the Father forgive us our sins.”
“It’s so hard to forgive others, it is really difficult because we always have that regret inside,” he said.
“We think ‘you did this to me, you wait … I’ll repay him the favor.'”
Pope Francis gave his homily based on the day’s Gospel, which tells how Jesus taught his disciples to pray the ‘Our Father.”
“We have a father very close to us, who embraces us,” the Roman pontiff said.
“All these worries, concerns that we have, let's leave them to the Father; he knows what we need.”
“But Father, what? My father?”
“No, our Father!” he exclaimed. “Because I am not an only child, none of us are, and if I cannot be a brother, I can hardly become a child of the Father, because he is a father to all.”
Pope Francis underscored that if we are not “at peace with my brothers, I cannot say ‘Father’ to him.”
Saying “Father, I have sinned” is “the key of every prayer, to feel loved by a father,” he reflected.
“Jesus immediately gives us a piece of advice in prayer: ‘in praying, do not babble,’ do not make worldly noises, vain noises.”
Pope Francis explained that Jesus teaches us not to turn to God with “so many words” because “he knows everything.”
“And he warned that prayer is not a magical thing – there is no magic with prayer.”
The Bishop of Rome noted “someone once told me that when he went to a witch doctor they said a lot of words to heal him, but that is pagan.”
“You must pray to him who generated you, who gave you life,” Pope Francis said.
“Not to everyone – everyone is too anonymous.”
“To whom do I pray, to a cosmic God?” he asked.
Praying to a 'cosmic God' is a polytheistic model that comes from “a rather light culture,” and is too impersonal.
“To whom do I pray, to the almighty God? He is too far off, ah, I can’t hear him. Neither did Jesus.”
“You must pray to the Father,” Pope Francis affirmed.
“The first” word is Father and it is “the key” to prayer.
He stressed that “without saying, without feeling that word, you cannot pray.”
“Jesus has promised us the Holy Spirit, it is he who teaches us from within, from the heart, how to say ‘Father’ and how to say ‘our.'”
So is it still wrong for me to wish they would? Do I have to go to confession for that?
Hmm. Is he going to argue that there’s a chance that Osama bin Laden ended up anywhere else?
I wish people would get their earthly punishments, but now that we no longer have a justice system, they don’t.
But as for eternity, who knows? Maybe they repented at the last moment, maybe from eternity they will do some good in penance. That’s why Catholics always prayed for the souls in Purgatory, because people who were neither damned nor on the fast track to Heaven were always considered to be powerful and able to help us here because they were trying to work out their own repentance.
Here is your escort to the confessional ...
The Vatican has enemies? That’s different.
Hmm. Is he going to argue that theres a chance that Osama bin Laden ended up anywhere else?
Whether or not that chance exists is a matter between bin Laden and God.
Hate is someone letting their dog shit in your driveway and then pushing your nose in it. You HATE them for it!
The same applies for someone who takes your freedoms and lifetime savings along with making you live in the Bizzarro world of illegal aliens, criminals, queers and child molesters and others who have become a protected species in the name of Political Correctness.
Yes.............hate is real and wishing damnation on those who have done you wrong is appropriate.
What a fool!
Here is my interpretation of this sermon:
Perhaps this is part of his message:
Subtle undertones about different cultures around the world where the people profess to be “Catholic” or “Christian” yet they maintain pagan rituals that may include “cursing” others. (Cursing can mean wishing physical harm or eternal damnation.)
Remember the Pope’s background and his upbringing and how this may have shaped his worldview beyond the walls of the Vatican.
I take it you are not a christian. (Matt. 22:17-21
Yep, I had her in second grade, Sister Mary Rapanuckle. And of course there was Monsignor Ripyourearoff!
He is 100% correct. From now on, I’ll wish them to go to Detroit, or maybe New Jersey.
“Whether or not that chance exists is a matter between bin Laden and God.”
God pretty well ruled that out. Bin Laden is in hell.
Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
So you know what is held between another person and God at the moment of that person’s death.
“So you know what is held between another person and God at the moment of that persons death.
I imagine it was the bullet passing through his brain right then.
I’m sure that for most people it is wrong to think your enemies are going to hell. However, it is a certain that MY enemies are, in fact, Hell bound. That is just the way it is.
You’re just itchin’ for a fight, aren’t you?
Er... our Lord didn't see it that way. We all start out as children of the devil. As our Lord reminds us, our will is against God's will. Some of us are adopted into our Father's family as He gives us the desire to follow His will.
There are the righteous and the unrighteous. The only thing that separates us is which way our wills our bent. But that makes a difference as to who our father actually is.
It’s not that we “think” anyone is going to Hell. It’s very clear in the Bible that the unsaved will go to Hell.
I’m recalling a conversation I had last week with my R.C. friend. As a Baptist, I believe that the Bible is the Final Authority. She told me the Catholics don’t believe that. They think there’s a lot of good stuff in the Bible, but the final authority is what their human leaders pass on to them.
Well, your friend is wrong. But, since you raised the subject, here is a question for you. At the time of the early christians, there were many different books and letters in circulation. Q: Who decided which books should be in the Canon of Scripture ... and ... by what authority did they make that determination?
Pope Francis was referencing Matthew 6:9-15. He is explaining the Lord’s prayer. That was the scripture reading for today.
**Yes.............hate is real and wishing damnation on those who have done you wrong is appropriate.**
So is that what you wish God to do in your own case?
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
“Love your neighbor as yourself.”
Holy Tradition is not the “final” authority as your state.
Catholicism is like a three legged stool supported by
the Holy Bible, Holy Tradition and the Magisterium
Who can ever know ... maybe at the last moment as the door was being knocked down ...... nah I doubt it too....
But hey if he did, we can still think he’s going to paying for a lot of stuff in purgatory for a very long time.
Best of both worlds. :-)
Does this imply RCs are friends with the fallen angels?
God did, by his own authority...
Logically, one would think it's up to the body of Christ, the church (and by no stretch of the imagination does that mean the Catholic religion) to determine which is the true canon...
So how many of those who call themselves Christians accept that the Majority Texts, the Masoretic Texts have books in them that do not belong in the Canon...
I would say probably none...
Then, how many of those same Christians would say that the Catholic version of the scriptures have books in them that are not inspired; do not belong in the scriptures??? A great many...
So it's easy...The body of Christ has spoken...
Christianity has only one leg...
A gentle correction is order.
Both Salvation and NYer are RIGHT on this one.
What the Pope means is two ways, which is mean what you pray/say in the Lord’s prayer and pray for the conversion of your enemies.
How was this accomplished? To whom was the information conveyed?
Yet the newer Bibles do allow for the extra seven books as a sign of RESPECT.
They must go to hell, right? I will have nothing to do with them! the Bishop of Rome said sarcastically.
The Pope told how Jesus noted, if we do not forgive others, neither will the Father forgive us our sins.
Its so hard to forgive others, it is really difficult because we always have that regret inside, he said.
We think you did this to me, you wait Ill repay him the favor.'
nobody trusts me
they blame me for the fires in town
they say that hell is where i'm bound
and pray that God will speed me
-- from the song "Hard Luck Bad News"
on the Solid Rock release Something New Under The Son
lyrics by Larry Norman
God picked men and inspired them to write the scriptures...
God said he would preserve his words forever...That has just as much truth as when Jesus said, 'I and the Father are one', or, 'Come unto me and I'll give you rest'...
The only bible that all Christians agree that contains only scripture comes from the area where people were first called Christians and is the result of the Received Texts, the Majority Texts, the Masoretic texts...
The Body agrees that that book does not contain more material than God gave us...And either he told the truth and preserved his words, or he didn't...I believe God told the truth...
Respect for who, or what??? And why would anyone care???
The Lord’s prayer is for believers. God is our Father. He is not the Father of everyone.
Perhaps he just wasn’t clear.
We all agree that scripture is inspired by God. But before it was compiled into a book, there were hundreds of letters and books in circulation among the various christian communities. Since all of these documents are not in the Bible, who decided which letters and books would be included? How was it decided? By what authority did these individuals make their decision. What about the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Philip, two of the many books in circulation. Who decided that these two books should not be included?
“The Lords prayer is for believers. God is our Father. He is not the Father of everyone.”
Sure, he’s the Father of everyone! And, it’s my sincere hope that everyone will know that before they die. Unfortunately, everyone won’t. But they are still Gods children.
(and it is my sincere hope that I don’t regret my first post in the religion forum!)
First, let's understand that this is an old Catholic cleche' you are dishing out and I know it's supposed to be a game stopper...
When coming at this argument from a different angle, the Catholic answer to end all is that there couldn't have been any books since the people of that age were illiterate and slow...
It required millions of monks from the Catholic religion to churn out the copies and put binding on them...
But now, with this argument, there were hundreds of copies of books floating around the known world...Just another tactic...
Since all of these documents are not in the Bible, who decided which letters and books would be included? How was it decided? By what authority did these individuals make their decision.
I already answered that, twice...God decided...And he accomplished it...And I think God has the authority to make that decision...We're not talking about pagan books which were written by men alone...
God said that he created the heavens and the earth...Do you believe that??? God also said he would preserve his words...You don't believe that???
What about the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Philip, two of the many books in circulation. Who decided that these two books should not be included?
Again, God did...
Could be that those two books were authentically written by the apostles (but unlikely)...Regardless, God obviously didn't want them in the scriptures...
No.....I’m not a fool but a realist!
Yeah! Go ahead and live by that credo and see how far it get’s you.
We have already tried that on immigration and see what rewards you have enjoyed from it.
Christ asked us to pray for our enemies.
While I appreciate your Faith, my response was in truth facetious. I guess I,m not that devout because I have to ask.
So you are saying it’s not okay to pray for our enemies to go to hell?
How? Through what means? Who are the men that sat down and examined each and every writing to determine if it was inspired? The book did not compile itself.
This is pycho-babble. It is not what the scriptures teaches nor what our Lord Jesus stated. But it sure sounds good.