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IDOLATRY? 'Get that thing down, immediately,' Pope Francis says of Argentinean statue
Catholic Online ^ | 7/11/2013

Posted on 07/11/2013 10:04:55 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - Pope Francis, at the age of 76, has found himself to be a most unwilling media celebrity. A household name and on countless newspapers and magazines, he has been adamant that the message of the church, and not him, is his mission on Earth.

Believers have visited the statue to pay homage to it ever since being installed in the cathedral's garden two weeks ago. Tourists have had their pictures taken alongside the figure. The fiberglass statue is five feet, six inches tall and has been a fixture of the cathedral since the end of June.

The former Archbishop of the Argentine capital, Pope Francis was reportedly horrified at the news.

Strong words with the priest responsible were exchanged between Francis and the priest responsible. "Get that thing down, immediately," the Argentinean newspaper Clarin reported. Since his election in March, Francis has gone to lengths to be seen as humble, showing little patience for the pomp and fuss that come with his position as head of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics.

Eschewing the robes and trimmings traditionally allocated to the Pope, Francis continues to wear a simple white cassock and iron cross.

Refusing to move into the luxurious Papal apartments, claiming they are too grand, Francis prefers to live in a humble guesthouse for visiting clerics, with whom he eats meals and offers mass every morning.

His celebrity, however, is to be expected. Vanity Fair magazine has declared Francis as Man of the Year in the magazine's Italian edition. "His first 100 days have already placed him in the category of world leaders who make history," the magazine says. "But the revolution continues."

(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic
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Believers have visited the statue to pay homage to it ever since being installed in the cathedral's garden two weeks ago. Tourists have had their pictures taken alongside the figure. The fiberglass statue is five feet, six inches tall and has been a fixture of the cathedral since the end of June. The former Archbishop of the Argentine capital, Pope Francis was reportedly horrified at the news. Strong words with the priest responsible were exchanged between Francis and the priest responsible. "Get that thing down, immediately," the Argentinean newspaper Clarin reported.

1 posted on 07/11/2013 10:04:55 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: All
Related, recent news (April 13):
World's tallest statue of Pope John Paul II is funded by tycoon who believes pontiff saved his drowning son


2 posted on 07/11/2013 10:09:17 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("...Someone handed the keys to the Forum to the OPC and its sympathizers...")
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To: Alex Murphy
Eschewing the robes and trimmings traditionally allocated to the Pope, Francis continues to wear a simple white cassock and iron cross.

Refusing to move into the luxurious Papal apartments, claiming they are too grand, Francis prefers to live in a humble guesthouse for visiting clerics, with whom he eats meals and offers mass every morning.

Would to God that once again, we would elect such a leader.

OBAMA'S DISASTEROUS FIRSTS AS PRESIDENT

3 posted on 07/11/2013 10:11:13 AM PDT by Jeff Head
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To: Alex Murphy

Wow! That’s the right answer and I admit that I didn’t expect it. He has his work cut out for him.


4 posted on 07/11/2013 10:13:22 AM PDT by GBA (Our obamanation: Romans 1:18-32)
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To: Alex Murphy

Not being Catholic, I figure I don’t have a voice in these matters, but I have to say, I really like this guy. If he can inspire non-Catholics, that’s pretty good I’d say.


5 posted on 07/11/2013 10:13:24 AM PDT by bigbob
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To: bigbob

Me too, I like the guy. And when he ex-communicates baby murderers like pelosi, biden, etc., it will be wonderful to see.


6 posted on 07/11/2013 10:22:44 AM PDT by oldtimer
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To: Alex Murphy

So he’s serious about idolatry? Should we look for him to order the crucifixes and statutes of Mary tossed into the fire?


7 posted on 07/11/2013 10:27:16 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Alex Murphy

8 posted on 07/11/2013 10:29:42 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Also see this thread: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3041178/posts


9 posted on 07/11/2013 10:33:56 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Heck, that's nothing.

Reformation Wall

10 posted on 07/11/2013 10:38:39 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("...Someone handed the keys to the Forum to the OPC and its sympathizers...")
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To: Alex Murphy

Argentines seem prone to idol worship. Many of them still have Evita shrines inside their homes.


11 posted on 07/11/2013 10:41:36 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: Alex Murphy
Pope Francis is setting a precedent for future popes. I'm glad, they should all be imitating Christ.
12 posted on 07/11/2013 10:43:36 AM PDT by diamond6 (Behold this Heart which has so loved men!" Jesus to St. Margaret Mary)
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To: Alex Murphy

13 posted on 07/11/2013 10:44:39 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: bigbob

Same here Bob. I’m impressed with how Pope Francis conducts himself. I hope other church leaders follow his example.


14 posted on 07/11/2013 10:45:04 AM PDT by Made In The USA (I'm not yelling, just... just talking enthusiastically..)
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To: bigbob

He’s your pope too bigbob;)


15 posted on 07/11/2013 10:46:09 AM PDT by jp3 (BABIES, GUNS & JESUS...HOT DAMN!!)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Looks like Calvin...


16 posted on 07/11/2013 10:48:28 AM PDT by AnalogReigns (because the real world is not digital...)
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To: Alex Murphy
"...Francis continues to wear a simple white cassock and iron cross. "

That's gonna raise some eyebrows.

17 posted on 07/11/2013 10:49:13 AM PDT by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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To: ArrogantBustard

18 posted on 07/11/2013 10:51:04 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("...Someone handed the keys to the Forum to the OPC and its sympathizers...")
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: Buckeye McFrog
Argentines seem prone to idol worship. Many of them still have Evita shrines inside their homes.

Unlike all the urban shrines to JFK that were maintained after his assassination.

20 posted on 07/11/2013 11:22:15 AM PDT by Stentor ( When sorrows come, they come not single spies but in battalions.)
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To: .45 Long Colt

What, you don’t like being reminded of the pain you caused Him? Makes you freer to continue?

Pictures of Madonna the singer OK , of your mother - OK - of Christ’s mother - EVIL? (psst, she was sinless).


21 posted on 07/11/2013 11:28:53 AM PDT by If You Want It Fixed - Fix It
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To: PLMerite

The swastika-looking image was on the backs of priests’ vestments (facing the people) during Mass for centuries, a symbol of S.S. - Sanctus, Sanctus (Holy, Holy), in the form of the Cross of Christ. And the Romans used it as a sign of royalty or victory.

It’s not the symbol or name, it’s the intent behind it, as used.


22 posted on 07/11/2013 11:32:58 AM PDT by If You Want It Fixed - Fix It
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To: Alex Murphy

IDOLATRY, I tell you!!!

23 posted on 07/11/2013 11:45:57 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: .45 Long Colt
Oh no, those are different! I'm sure the Catholics will be along to explain to you why very shortly.
24 posted on 07/11/2013 11:56:53 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: If You Want It Fixed - Fix It

Oh no, I don’t need dumb idols to remind me of my sin and my need for that perfect righteousness that can only come from the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The law lays me flat, FRiend. The law convicts me of my utter sinful nature.

I also know God has forbidden idolatry.


25 posted on 07/11/2013 1:04:39 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Boogieman

Yep, you can alway count on the FR Protestant Iconoclast Brigades to come out in force. Lets go for it, lets call for hte Mt. Rushmore to be destroyed, the Lincoln Memorial. Hell, Lets ban photography.

The Pope wanted it down because he does not want the Celebrity Rock star image as Pope. It is in that sense he wants it taken down. He is not coming as a rock star, but as the Pope, the earthly leader [Christ being the Eternal Shepherd of the Church] of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.


26 posted on 07/11/2013 1:05:20 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: CTrent1564

It will be just fine for him to get the rock star treatment when he dies though, because that’s not hypocritical at all :P


27 posted on 07/11/2013 1:26:07 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Ann Archy

Well, I’m neither a madam or nor anti-Catholic. What I am is pro-truth. I’m pro the Jesus Christ who came “according to the Scriptures.” I have great concern for the souls of Catholic people, a number of whom are in my own family. However, I readily admit I am against the papacy, the priesthood, the mass, the eucharist, and numerous other attributes and doctrines of the Roman Catholic system. I’m not against them just to be contrary or because I’m a protestant. I’m against them because I have a high view of Scripture and find no biblical support for them.

Few Catholics I know are all that serious about their faith. They can’t really discuss these things because they have never once considered Catholic doctrines in light of Scripture. The same goes for the Catholics I run into here. A few attempt a defense by way of reference to what “the Church” teaches. Some resort to human logic and philosophy. Only occasionally do I encounter a Catholic who even attempts an argument from the Bible. Many seem to just get angry.

For instance, rather than give Scriptural support for why statues of Mary and crucifixes are biblical, you scoffed and resorted to ad hominem, which is telling.

Do these things statues just seem good and right to you? Does your heart tell you God couldn’t possibly care about statues of Christ and Mary? How do you know they are okay? Do you accept them merely because your church propagates them? Have you been a Berean (Acts 17:10-11) and searched the Scriptures to find out what they have to say?

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9)

“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Proverbs 14:12)


28 posted on 07/11/2013 1:33:16 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Boogieman
It will be just fine for him to get the rock star treatment when he dies though, because that’s not hypocritical at all

His immediate predecessor didn't wait:
kitsch

29 posted on 07/11/2013 1:46:11 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("...Someone handed the keys to the Forum to the OPC and its sympathizers...")
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Love to see this some day..

30 posted on 07/11/2013 3:09:03 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Boogieman

Boogieman:

Well, I think in many instances people remember the deceased when they pass, Of course, even Shakespeare longed for the Catholic Funeral Liturgy thath the Prots in England thru out as he would state something of the order “Oh Ritual oh Ritual where are thou Ritual”.

As for dieing, I guess when Ronald Reagan died, there should not have been dignataries at the Reagan Library and several days of celebrating his life, nor should we have named a DC airport after him, Princess Di.

When a Pope dies, there is the Funeral Liturgy which all Baptized Catholics, who die in communion with God and the Church, albeit sometimes not a perfect communion, are entitled to have. Some Popes lives are celebrated more than others. Not sure how that is hypocritical. Of course, “maybe” you are one of those guys that when your Parents pass, you are going to say, just stick em in the ground and be done with em. But again, only you know that as I am only speculating.


31 posted on 07/11/2013 3:10:09 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Alex Murphy

Good grief, that’s really stretching for something. Sad.


32 posted on 07/11/2013 3:11:40 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: .45 Long Colt

You worry about your own soul....thanks.


33 posted on 07/11/2013 3:34:25 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: Ann Archy

I will pray for you.


35 posted on 07/11/2013 3:56:11 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt

GREAT!!!


36 posted on 07/11/2013 4:15:39 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: Boogieman

Dear Mr. Boogieman-

Hey, were you a member of KC and the Sunshine Band?

Well, I don’t want you to be disappointed in not having Catholics trying to explain the inexpliquably unexplainable, so here I am. However, before I cut to the chase, you may want to prepare yourself beforehand for the unthinkable prospect of becoming RC.

Why do I say this? Because many evangelicals — informed evangelical scholars, mind you — have been seeing things they missed before that explain the Catholic point of view. And no, I’m not talking about photography here, I’m referring to Biblical in that thar Bible-type stories.

The sitting president of the Evangelical Theological Union, Dr. Francis Beckwith, is one of them. Story here:
http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2007/05/evangelical-theological-society.html

But back to those graven images, those sinister, plain as the nose on your face CONDEMNED graven images, how IN THE WORLD can anyone justify their existence?????

The 2nd Commandment clearly states (I love how scripture scholars of all stripes use the word ‘clearly’ when debating their diametrically-opposed positions) in Exodus 20 that “Thou shalt make NO GRAVEN IMAGE”. Period. End of discussion, right?

Umm, not so fast.

Gotta keep reading that Exodus. What happens in Exodus, mostly? Jews, err, Israelites, complaining. And complaining. Then, they complain some more.

So, they get smitten, smitted, smote. I mean, even BEFORE the 10 C’s came down the mountain with Moses (twice) they were gravening. Got themselves a golden calf! Whoo hoo! Got smote.

OK, now they got themselves the 10 C’s. But they’re complaining. No food! Then ... No water! Later ... No meat! Got milk?

God sent 10 plagues on the E’s, pillar of fire, parts the Red Sea, gives ‘em manna, quails, you name it. These people just can’t be pleased! You ever work in a restaurant and have a chosen person as a customer? Yeesh. “Your salt is too salty... Is this ham kosher?” It still goes on TODAY!! By the time you bring their bill, YOU’RE ready to do some smiting. But alas, I digress.

Soooo, this complaining has lethal consequences. In one segment, God sends seraph serpents among the I’s that bite and kill them, but it seems it doesn’t kill them right away. We’re right on script here though - complaint, smite, repent. It’s like shampooing. Lather, rinse, repeat.

By the way, does ANYONE repeat when shampooing?

Now, FINALLY, to the point.

What does God instruct Moses to do? That’s right.

GOD ORDERS — ORDERS, COMMANDS — MOSES TO MAKE (gasp!)

A GRAVEN IMAGE!!!!

Say it isn’t so!!

Moses casts an image of the serpent, and puts it on a staff, and anyone who looks upon THE GRAVEN IMAGE is healed.

So, did God forget His own 2nd C? Let’s just say that’s a non-starter. The point about GRAVEN IMAGES is that you are not to worship them as a god.

Which is CLEARLY (hee, hee, I love dat woid) illustrated much later ... IN THE BIBLE!!!

But where, oh my enlightened Catholic brethren, you may ask, might that be?

Well, later on our friends the Jews were in their normal state, which is to say, all screwed up, worshipping idols, not keeping the Sabbath, killing their babies in sacrifice to gods -similar to today. But this is the time of the Kings. And lo and behold, a reformer king, Josiah by name, comes on the scene.

So he’s smashing idols, re-dedicating the temple, etc. etc.
But do you remember reading what one of the idols was? Something kept initially as a memoir of the 40 year sojourn in the desert?

That’s right. The bronze seraph serpent! Only now it’s being worshipped as a god!! So Josiah has this important historical artifact, not to mention a proof of God’s intervention on behalf of the Israelites, this object touched by Moses and Aaron, DESTROYED.

So now, my pre-Catholic friend, when you watch a Catholic Mass and you see Christ crucified on a staff leading the procession to begin that Mass, remember that the just judge will be instead your merciful Savior. You have but to look upon Him to be healed.

And you can only do that in a Catholic Church.


37 posted on 07/11/2013 4:16:11 PM PDT by stisidore
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To: Ann Archy

Thank for proving my point. You lashed out with all manner of angry, irrational, and fallacious argumentation. Rather than engage the issue from Scripture, you resorted to ad hominem, digression, argument by emotive language, argument by gibberish, argument by ambiguous assertion, etc.

Your argument about the Lord’s Supper is nonsensical, not to mention unsupported by any facts. Moreover, you SCREAMED at me instead of supporting your position, whatever it might be, with Scripture.

Just because your friend either can’t defend her beliefs or has chosen not to, you must not assume no one else can defend her position. Most people never think deeply about anything, let alone the Word of God.

Man must have religion of some sort; should he cease to worship the God who made him, he will worship the god whom he himself made-an idol graven or molten-or it may be a stump, a stone, a creeping thing, the sun, the moon, the stars, or even the devil!

Men, by degrees, lost the knowledge of God, a result which was punishment, since, “when they knew God they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;” and “because they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, He gave them up to a reprobate mind.”

This state of things gives a fearful significance to the second commandment, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.”

When you find Scriptural support for idolatry please let me know. As for me and my house, we will remember that God is a jealous God and avoid images altogether.

As I said, I will pray for you. In fact, I already have.


38 posted on 07/11/2013 4:52:14 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: stisidore

Boy, you’re a condescending one aren’t you? I assure you that I’m already familiar with all of the things you have cited from the Bible, as well as your Catholic talking points concerning them. You go right ahead and trust in your objects and dead saints, and I’ll just trust in the invisible, everlasting God.


39 posted on 07/11/2013 5:29:39 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: stisidore; Boogieman
>>Moses casts an image of the serpent, and puts it on a staff, and anyone who looks upon THE GRAVEN IMAGE is healed.<<

I don’t suppose you have read what God said to do with that “image” after they began to “venerate” it did you?

2 Kings 18:4 He eliminated the high places, smashed the sacred pillars to bits, and cut down the Asherah pole. He also demolished the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been offering incense to it; it was called Nehushtan.

Burning incense in front of a statue (idol) sound familiar to you?

>>The point about GRAVEN IMAGES is that you are not to worship them as a god.<<

Oh you think so? Let’s see what God actually says about that.

Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Would you please show the scripture where God commands to use statues and incense in the worship of Him?

40 posted on 07/11/2013 5:47:28 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: CynicalBear

I’ll do my best here to reply, but I feel as though you talked past some of what I had said.

First of all, you seem to ignore my point that the image was cast at God’s command. The command of God. You seem to avoid commenting on this story. Please address the usefulness of this image, and why you think God commanded for it to be cast. I’d like to know your views on the subject. Add scripture as you like, but again, I would like YOUR opinion on why this was done.

I then explained that it was destroyed by Josiah because it had become an idol, at which point you respond by saying that it was destroyed because it was an idol. Where is the problem here?We agree on this ... I think.

Worshipping the seraph serpent was wrong; it was destroyed. Your use of scripture; ie, “Let’s see what God actually says about that”, I don’t follow. It doesn’t make sense to me. Moses was following God’s command in creating the image, Josiah was following God’s command in destroying it. In both cases, I agreed with the action taken. Do you?

Regarding incense, that was commonly used in Jewish worship. Exodus 30 gives directions for the altar of incense.

1 Kings 9:25 tells of Solomon burning incense before the Lord.

Psalm 141 requests of the Lord to ‘let my prayer rise like incense’. So yes, divine worship to God involves incense, as we use in the Catholic Church. It is used to worship the living and true God.

The converse is also true, as you stated in your quotation of 2 Kings.

Regarding statues, you already have the story of the serpent, but also if you look at 1 Kings 7:29, the temple had images of lions, oxen and cherubim. God’s presence overshadowed this temple at its dedication, so it met with the Almighty’s approval.

And most commonly known, of course, were the cast images of cherubim which were on top of the Ark of the Covenant. Again, graven images on the most holy object the Jews possessed, created so at God’s command.

If you recall a story of the Ark, its weight shifted and an unqualified man touched it, and was killed immediately. I hope that this can illustrate again that an object with graven images again demonstrated divine power. This power did not devolve from the objects themselves, but by God’s will that power be granted to them to serve His purpose.

These examples I hope amply respond to your request for information on statues and incense. Furthermore, I am grateful to you for quoting Deuteronomy 12:32 “What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”

As you can now see, the incense and a statues were commanded by God, so perhaps to NOT follow these practices is to ignore God’s desires.

The Catholic Church uses incense. Does your place of worship do the same? Yes, we have statues and images that we believe have shown to possess the power of the one true God. Again, does your church (assuming you’re Christian) have the same?

Do you see now where God expressly desires this in worship?

I hope this provides some light, and not heat, on the subject. God bless you.


41 posted on 07/11/2013 7:19:27 PM PDT by stisidore
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To: stisidore

“As you can now see, the incense and a statues were commanded by God, so perhaps to NOT follow these practices is to ignore God’s desires.”

Only a few specific statues were commanded by God, and those were the only ones that were allowed, in spite of the general prohibition. The Jews didn’t use any others in their worship, which demonstrates they did not confuse his specific exemption for a general one. Unfortunately, the Catholics did not avoid the same error.


42 posted on 07/12/2013 6:27:19 AM PDT by Boogieman
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: stisidore
>>First of all, you seem to ignore my point that the image was cast at God’s command. The command of God. You seem to avoid commenting on this story.<<

Not at all. God did not command to look upon the image in worship of Him. When the Israelites began to do that the image was destroyed. Catholics insist the images are used to serve or worship God which I showed was forbidden by God.

>>I would like YOUR opinion on why this was done.<<

What does MY opinion have to do with what God commands? I don’t worship by what my OPINION is about anything God said or did. I follow what He commanded.

>>In both cases, I agreed with the action taken. Do you?<<

Yep, now how about Catholics get rid of all those “images” like the heathen use in worshiping God?

Deuteronomy 12:30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth

>>Regarding statues, you already have the story of the serpent, but also if you look at 1 Kings 7:29, the temple had images of lions, oxen and cherubim. God’s presence overshadowed this temple at its dedication, so it met with the Almighty’s approval.<<

Show me one time where God commanded to bow down before those images and burn incense in front of them like the Catholics do with statues of Mary.

>>These examples I hope amply respond to your request for information on statues and incense.<<

For the Israelites prior to Christ’s sacrifice. Are you going to go back to all of the Old Testament Jewish customs and rituals? You must if you insist on following Jewish law and customs.

>>As you can now see, the incense and a statues were commanded by God, so perhaps to NOT follow these practices is to ignore God’s desires.<<

Once again, show me from scripture where God commanded the Israelites to bow down before those images.

>>Do you see now where God expressly desires this in worship?<<

No. I see where He expressly forbids use of idols and images as the Catholics practice.

44 posted on 07/12/2013 2:07:38 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: .45 Long Colt

I mostly agree with you. I was raised Catholic and most of my family still cling to that but I also still feel they are saved [see Romans 9:10]. Since we are all so easily deceived with little lies in so many different flavors of faith yet can still agree in salvation thru Christ alone then I have a good portion of peace from that.

Regarding the idolatry [both this thread and another] and your unique viewpoints - don’t forget too about the verse claiming there are no private interpretations so try to find common ground rather than drawing lines to divide anyone. Don’t add nor subtract but accept the plain an simple when the verses requires same.


45 posted on 07/12/2013 10:35:45 PM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: CynicalBear

I don’t intend to defend the unique practices of the Catholics nor uphold some other christian religion as better or perfect. Religion is man’s attempt to reach and worship God = hopefully that will lead one to faith which is a gift from God [not imperfect nor man-made] = He chose us before we chose him lest any should boast.


46 posted on 07/12/2013 10:40:06 PM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: BrandtMichaels

“Regarding the idolatry [both this thread and another] and your unique viewpoints - don’t forget too about the verse claiming there are no private interpretations so try to find common ground rather than drawing lines to divide anyone. Don’t add nor subtract but accept the plain an simple when the verses requires same.”

What private interpretation? My view is hardly unique. It was the historic view held by historic Protestants. And its still the view held by many today. Many, if not the majority, of recent generations of Protestants have forgotten what we once believed, on all sorts of issues. Liberalism has robbed us of so much. It is amazing what can be learned once you start reading sermons and books from long ago.

The bottom line is that I take idolatry with seriousness because the testimony of Scripture is that God abhors it. I’m not going to look for ways to make it acceptable. I also know we are to walk by faith, not by sight.

God bless you, FRiend!

From Charles Spurgeon’s sermon “A Jealous God”
(http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0502.htm)

Our text is coupled with the command—”Thou shalt worship no other God.” When the law was thundered from Sinai, the second commandment received force from the divine jealousy—”Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in the heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God.” Since he is the only God, the Creator of heaven and earth, he cannot endure that any creature of his own hands, or fiction of a creature’s imagination should be thrust into his throne, and be made to wear his crown. In Ezekiel we find the false god described as “the image of jealousy which provoketh to jealousy,” and the doom on Jerusalem for thus turning from Jehovah runs thus, “Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.” False gods patiently endure the existence of other false gods. Dagon can stand with Bel, and Bel with Ashtaroth; how should stone, and wood, and silver, be moved to indignation; but because God is the only living and true God, Dagon must fall before his ark; Bel must be broken, and Ashtaroth must be consumed with fire. Thus saith the Lord, “Ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves;” the idols he shall utterly abolish. My brethren, do you marvel at this? I felt in my own soul while meditating upon this matter an intense sympathy with God. Can you put yourselves in God’s place for a moment? Suppose that you had made the heavens and the earth, and all the creatures that inhabit this round globe; how would you feel if those creatures should set up an image of wood, or brass, or gold, and cry, “These are the gods that made us; these things give us life.” What—a dead piece of earth set up in rivalry with real Deity! What must be the Lord’s indignation against infatuated rebels when they so far despise him as to set up a leek, or an onion, or a beetle, or a frog, preferring to worship the fruit of their own gardens, or the vermin of their muddy rivers, rather than acknowledge the God in whose hand their breath is, and whose are all their ways! Oh! it is a marvel that God hath not dashed the world to pieces with thunderbolts, when we recollect that even to this day milhons of men have changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. With what unutterable contempt must the living God look down upon those idols which are the work of man’s hands—”They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: they have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: they have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.” God hath longsuffering toward men, and he patiently endureth this madness of rebelhon; but, oh! what patience must it be which can restrain the fury of his jealousy, for he is a jealous God, and brooks no rival. It was divine jealousy which moved the Lord to bring all his plagues on Egypt. Careful reading will show you that those wonders were all aimed at the gods of Egypt. The people were tormented by the very things which they had made to be their deities, or else, as in the case of the murrain, their sacred animals were themselves smitten, even as the Lord had threatened—”Against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am Jehovah.” Was it not the same with ancient Israel? Why were they routed before their enemies? Why was their land so often invaded? Why did famine follow pestilence, and war succeed to famine? Only because “they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images. When God heard this, he was Froth, and greatly abhorred Israel.” (Psalm 78:58-59.) How was it that at the last the Lord gave up Jerusalem to the flames, and bade the Chaldeans carry into captivity the remnant of his people? How was it that he abhorred his heritage, and gave up Mount Zion to be trodden under foot by the Gentiles? Did not Jeremiah tell them plainly that because they had walked after other gods and forsaken Jehovah, therefore he would cast them out into a land which they knew not?

Brethren, the whole history of the human race is a record of the wars of the Lord against idolatry. The right hand of the Lord hath dashed in pieces the enemy and cast the ancient idols to the ground. Behold the heaps of Nineveh! Search for the desolations of Babylon! Look upon the broken temples of Greece! See the ruins of Pagan Rome! Journey where you will, you behold the dilapidated temples of the gods and the ruined empires of their foolish votaries. The moles and the bats have covered with forgetfulness the once famous deities of Chaldea and Assyria. The Lord hath made bare his arm and eased him of his adversaries, for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
With what indignation, then, must the Lord look down upon that apostate harlot, called the Romish Church, when, in all her sanctuaries, there are pictures and images, relics and slivines, and poor infatuated beings are even taught to bow before a piece of bread. In this country, Popish idolatry is not so barefaced and naked as it is in other lands; but I have seen it, and my soul has been moved with indignation like that of Paul on Mars’ Hill, when he saw the city wholly to idolatry; I have seen thousands adore the wafer, hundreds bow before the image of the Virgin, scores at prayer before a crucifix, and companies of men and women adoring a rotten bone or a rusty nail, because said to be the relic of a saint. It is vain for the Romanist to assert that he worships not the things themselves, but only the Lord through them, for this the second commandment expressly forbids, and it is upon this point that the Lord calls himself a jealous God. How full is that cup which Babylon must drink; the day is hastening when the Lord shall avenge himself upon her, because her iniquities have reached unto heaven, and she hath blasphemously exalted her Pope into the throne of the Host High, and thrust her priests into the office of the Lamb. Purge yourselves, purge yourselves of this leaven. I charge you before God, the Judge of quick and dead, if ye would not be partakers of her plagues, come out from her more and more, and let your protest be increasingly vehement against this which exalteth itself above all that is called God. Let our Protestant Churches, which have too great a savoar of Popery in them, cleanse themselves of her fornications, lest the Lord visit them with fire and pour the plagues of Babylon upon them. Renounce, my brethren, every ceremony which has not Scripture for its warrant, and every doctrine which is not established by the plain testimony of the Word of God. Let us, above all, never by any sign, or word, or deed, have any complicity with this communion of devils, this gathering together of the sons of Behal: and since our God is a jealous God, let us not provoke him by any affinity, gentleness, fellowship, or amity with this Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth.

With what jealousy must the Lord regard the great mass of the people of this country, who have another God beside himself! With what indignation doth he look upon many of you who are subject to the prince of the power of the air, the god of this world! To you Jehovah is nothing. God is not in all your thoughts; you have no fear of Him before your eyes. Like the men of Israel, you have set up your idols in your heart. Your god is custom, fashion, business, pleasure, ambition, honor. You have made unto yourselves gods of these things; you have said, “These be thy gods, O Israel.” Ye follow after the things which perish, the things of this world, which are vanity. O ye sons of men, think not that God is blind. He can perceive the idols in your hearts; he understandeth what be the secret things that your souls lust after; he searcheth your heart, he trieth your reins; beware lest he find you sacrificing to strange gods, for his anger will smoke against you, and his jealousy will be stirred. O ye that worship not God, the God of Israel, who give him not dominion over your whole soul, and live not to his honor, repent ye of your idolatry, seek mercy through the blood of Jesus, and provoke not the Lord to jealousy any more.


47 posted on 07/13/2013 6:36:30 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Alex Murphy

And... I forget... how is having a graven image of Mary NOT “idolatry”?


48 posted on 07/13/2013 6:40:43 AM PDT by MayflowerMadam (I feel much better since I gave up hope.)
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To: CynicalBear

16“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,17and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’18“For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’19“The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

Matthew 11:16 I’ll let you figure this one out for yourself.


49 posted on 07/13/2013 7:38:50 AM PDT by stisidore
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To: CTrent1564
The Pope wanted it down because he does not want the Celebrity Rock star image as Pope. It is in that sense he wants it taken down. He is not coming as a rock star, but as the Pope, the earthly leader [Christ being the Eternal Shepherd of the Church] of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Couple of years later PING to a new thread....
Pope Francis: Pop! Vinyls, Bobblehead & Collectibles by Funko


Official merchandise of Pope Francis's historic visit to the Philippines.

50 posted on 02/14/2015 1:18:23 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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