Posted on 08/09/2013 7:45:54 PM PDT by ebb tide
Pope Francis discovers charismatic movement a gift to the whole church
By Francis X. Rocca Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- During World Youth Day celebrations in Rio de Janeiro, July 23-28, many worshippers in the crowds could be seen swaying from side to side, arms raised in the air, wearing rapt or joyous expressions on their faces.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholicnews.com ...
Typo: No one who denies the trinity, etc etc, can possibly be saved. — My original sentence seemed to have the opposite meaning than what I intended.
With all due respect, you still need to get some “damn” out of your mind.
God is busy trying in myriad ways to bless an unwilling world, which is unwilling because it invested itself in the devil at the fall (it was a human soul conspiracy, “WE” sinned in Adam). Damnation is not plan A or even plan B. In fact now I am convinced it is something like plan Z — if numbers who do not get to plan Z are empirically few we only have ourselves to blame for that. The narrow door is narrow all right — it needs a Shepherd to get you through it. Don’t accept Shepherd — no get through door. But DO accept Shepherd — door is lead pipe cinch.
I don’t go for “hyper emotionalism,” no. But I also go for making a righteous judgment and what happens inwardly is what matters, not what some worry minded critic says looking at the externals. Try tracing the blessings sometime, rather than your own curses. Give questionable situations some patience and pray that they are well, not that they are rotten. Something of the devil will end up with very obvious denial of God’s glory before long; with no grace to work with the devil cannot keep up appearances for long.
I look at it in positive light. All saved will come to affirm the Trinity.
“God is busy trying in myriad ways to bless an unwilling world, which is unwilling because it invested itself in the devil at the fall (it was a human soul conspiracy, “WE” sinned in Adam). Damnation is not plan A or even plan B. In fact now I am convinced it is something like plan Z — if numbers who do not get to plan Z are empirically few we only have ourselves to blame for that.”
Salvation is through Jesus Christ, the only plan. Anything outside of that is false and is not supported by the scripture. Therefore, I also refuse it.
Oh... and blessings come with exaltation of the Lord... the two are tied together inextricably. Someone who is exalting the Lord energetically is in a GOOD place no matter how embarrassing the emotion may be to you. After all, King David danced until you could see his underpants! Now channeling of the emotion is needed — don’t get so carried away that you forget to do the right thing afterward. (David did and got a sobering lesson.) But with that caveat, the more the exaltation the better.
I don’t think you said anything that negates what I said.
But you did chop off part of what I posted... does that part embarrass you a little?
Let me clarify in a way that may sound less “combative.” Plan A was obedience in the Garden. That sank. Plans B-Y are various ministrations of Christ. Both pre and post incarnation. Plan Z is damnation.
God is not an easily giving up God; we are easily giving up people, slow to recognize that our enemies are purely supernatural. One of the most aggravating things to God in many supposedly good Christian lives is the idea that we have to bring some sort of offering to God before embracing Him. Oh, we have to carry Him a fear offering, or a worry offering, or a pride offering, or a religion offering... NO. And God blessed me with an intense enough hunger for Him that I was weeping as I approached nearer and nearer, although I had been nominally saved for decades. When we embraced without all those silly world-offerings... BAM. I was there with my Heavenly Father. He was listening. Very clear supernatural effects and amazing blessings. I mean, God forgave me for this other stuff too, but it hurt the quality of our embrace; the idea that I had to bring those offerings clouded my spiritual vision. The only offering He wants is something to immediately pick up and exalt. What a favor, what a blessing.
“Oh... and blessings come with exaltation of the Lord... the two are tied together inextricably.”
You might be referring to the practice of being “drunk in the Spirit,” or of the wild behavior that usually accompanies the “gift of tongues,’ at least from what I’ve seen. David dancing around is not the same as claiming that one is staggering or making animal noises or falling over as a result of the Spirit. When the Apostles received the gift of tongues, they were only accused by mockers of being drunk, since they supposed they were babbling, but not by those who understood the real languages that were spoken. The Apostles also denied being drunk, and instead quite soberly preached the Gospel. Which, if what you said is true, they would rather have been staggering about, and if we were really into it, shouting “Bam!” “Bam!” as they kicked people in the face, like Todd Bentley does.
“But you did chop off part of what I posted... does that part embarrass you a little?”
No, not at all. Due to the forum problems right now I can’t even see it, and whatever you wrote, I’ve forgotten it, as it didn’t register with me in the first place. I just picked a part of your post to quote, since it seemed to be suggesting, with the other fellow, that there is salvation outside of Christianity.
“And God blessed me with an intense enough hunger for Him that I was weeping as I approached nearer and nearer, although I had been nominally saved for decades. When we embraced without all those silly world-offerings... BAM. I was there with my Heavenly Father. He was listening. Very clear supernatural effects and amazing blessings. I mean, God forgave me for this other stuff too, but it hurt the quality of our embrace; the idea that I had to bring those offerings clouded my spiritual vision. The only offering He wants is something to immediately pick up and exalt. What a favor, what a blessing.”
Joh_20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
I hate emotionalism, and I do not want anything to do with a practice which replaces sound teaching with supposed supernatural blessings which, honestly, do NOT have any real difference between those who deny the sufficient work of Christ on the cross, or teach a health and wealth Gospel, or who behave like animals, barking and crawling around on the floor like animals. Even the Mormons in their early days had events like that. People going wild, jumping on trees, weird manifestations. I have also heard of such things amongst the occultists. And, finally, I’ve seen the same “manifestations” repeated by people under the influence of a hypnotist or fraudster. Go watch the Marjoe Gortner documentary on YouTube as an example of this.
Thus, none of your spiritual blessings are unique, but are in fact widely available amongst anyone who wants them. And so, they have no value, and should never have any value when it comes to the faith, since the moment you trust in these signs over Christ, you’re in for a rough ride. I should know, as my life went into a pretty dark place when I realized that all the “Prophets,” and other people around me, were all horribly deceived and likely damned. When I left them, they started having “words from God” about me trying to seduce people’s wives, or hacking their cell phones (I worked for Verizon Wireless for a long time before getting laid off in the Obama economy). I also lost a lot of good friends over the ordeal, since they all turned against me, and supposed I was possessed by Demons. When, the truth was, I had simply recorded their prophecies and wondered to myself why they were not fulfilled... and why everyone was willing to forget that they were made.
Now, the other fellow, who due to the forum’s problems right now I can’t even see his post and ping him, (though I would if I could), mentions the miracle, and he mentions Orthodoxy. And I think his is an example I’d be willing to believe. And it’s not like I deny miracles, since I’ve received quite a’many myself, with God working mightily in my life... Though, these came only after I had left you miracle mongers, and rather than these miracles being there to give me faith, rather they were the result of a faith I didn’t truly have until after I left them! Quite ironic.
Whatever the case, there is no replacement for sound doctrine and a true faith; and I cannot be convinced otherwise, as I know the difference on a personal level between the type of faith you find taught and held with the majority of these Charismatics, and the type of faith that really comes with God. It is a difference between night and day, of powerlessness and great power.
I never learned how to really, truly pray, until after I stopped worrying about emotional highs and visible manifestations. I never really received true answers to prayer, until after I was brought down to nothing and was forced to have that kind of faith that a person is forced to have when they are in despair, and see nothing, and know nothing. And this is why I cannot be convinced to return to such things, for the same reason why I can’t be convinced to become a Roman Catholic again... It’s like putting new wine into an old bottle, or returning again into the desert, where everything is dead and empty.
If we could have a choice of gifts, Paul said we should have love or charity in some translations. There are false signs and wonders of the enemy but Faith in God and the willingness to follow his word and to receive discipline will be accounted for righteousness. If you never spoke a tongue but you are known for wisdom, discernment, and kindly love, those are the best gifts God can give a soul...just not necessarily splashy! Just like Christ who was not “comely that men should look upon him”.
I think you misunderstand me.
The signs have pointed me right square TO Christ. I’m living a life more and more in line with the bible every day. Which is exactly what I would expect from a genuine experience. The signs are viewed in context, sir. Not out of context. They do have value because the rest of the context is present.
Do not blaspheme what God has made holy, please! Emotion is another resource that God has given.
And yet the tongues (if present) are a holy ornamentation if the rest of the context demonstrates the presence of the Lord in a life.
I’ve gotten confirmation of the step up in my love from other Christians. As well as myself noticing that a lot of the old hate is gone from my communications, and more self control in my communications and my life. Fruit of the Spirit is there. In my case, no tongues, but if I ever got them I would not refuse them (again exercised in a biblical context, with an interpreter). God is perfectly capable of exalting Himself in my native English!
But I want to caution folks, and this goes for Puny too. God does not want our human powered philosophy-offerings. God wants US, in love. The Bible is DEscriptive as well as PREscriptive. The Spirit has to come into a life before the Bible speaks. This is not rocket science, really. I was criticized once by a fellow who said the Bible is where the “rubber hits the road” and didn’t like how I was not filling my discussions with copious references and exact quotations. Er, that at best is not a complete picture. Do not equate reading the manual for an airplane, to flying the airplane! The airplane flight will comply with the manual, but you actually have to go fly that airplane. You can’t just sit there reading the manual.
And, a successful airplane pilot won’t sit there endlessly quoting the manual. The pilot will tell you how he flew and what scenery he saw and the like.
Take heed, folks, and God has given me the authority to say this to you by simply showing me that it is true. Yes, there is a “bibliolatry” and it’s like sitting there endlessly discussing the airplane manual and not sharing the flying experience.
How do you know someone won’t accept the Trinity at the very end? Some people never hear of the Trinity for whatever reason, I hope you don’t say they have no chance of Salvation. There are obvious meanings of Scripture but there are also deeper meanings that are only discovered over time. And there are some we will probably never discover because how can any of us fully know the mind of God? Be careful about reading people out of any chance of Salvation because of your reading of the Scriptures. Without the Church and the early fathers and even others like St.Augustine as guides to the Scriptures, people feel pressured to totally understand and exhaust every passage of Scripture. Humility is called for. Everyone of us can’t possibly understand the mind of God nor all His ways of Salvation. I believe Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and I believe the Catholic Sacramental system is the ordinary and best way of Salvation. But I believe many people, for example conservative, Pro-Life, Pro-Traditional marriage Orthodox Jews follow Jesus’ Voice without knowing it have and have an opportunity to be saved. I would also count Christians who don’t use artificial contraception as virtually being Catholics without knowing it though unfortunately they don’t partake of the Sacraments. I have a hard time believing that these people have less of a chance of Salvation than many of the Obama-voting Catholics who sit next to me in the pews on Sundays, or the Christians involved with abortifacient-contraceptives who seem to have no idea that such practices have been viewed as objectively gravely sinful the entire history of Christendom until 1932 and after. I say there are more meanings to the following Scriptures than meet the eye:
“I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.” -John 10:16
“In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him. You know the word [that] he sent to the Israelites as he proclaimed peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all” -Acts 10:34-36
“How do you know someone won’t accept the Trinity at the very end? Some people never hear of the Trinity for whatever reason, I hope you don’t say they have no chance of Salvation. “
Of course they’ve heard about the Trinity. It’s throughout the entire scripture, so they have no excuse for denying it. And they deny it because they specifically heard of it, but not too long after Azusa street when the AOG got formed, one fellow had a “revelation” that roughly 2,000 years of Christianity was wrong, and that the only way to be saved is through being baptized in the name of Jesus. IOW, your baptism and mine are invalid, and we also are not Christians.
This is a damning heresy whether you like it or not. Now I didn’t say that salvation was “impossible” for them. If they repent and convert to Christianity, they will certainly be saved.
As for Jews or other non-believers, salvation is not by sacraments or good works, but through Christ only, as the scripture plainly says.
““I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.” -John 10:16”
This is in reference not to Pagans and other infidels, but to the children of God spread throughout all the Earth whom Christ would call. Your heresy, in many ways, is just as bad as denying the Trinity, since yours undoes the Gospel message and makes it irrelevant.
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