Posted on 09/17/2013 8:25:21 PM PDT by jodyel
"Unless You Eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and Drink His Blood You Have No Life In You"
Are these words of Jesus from John 6:53 to be taken literally or figuratively? The Roman Catholic Church teaches the context of John chapter six and the above headlined verse 53 are literal. Thus Jesus is giving absolute and unconditional requirements for eternal life. In fact, this literal interpretation forms the foundation for Rome's doctrine of transubstantiation -- the miraculous changing of bread and wine into the living Christ, His body and blood, soul and divinity. Each Catholic priest is said to have the power to call Jesus down from the right hand of the Father when he elevates the wafer and whispers the words "Hoc corpus meus est." Catholics believe as they consume the lifeless wafer they are actually eating and drinking the living body and blood of Jesus Christ. This is a vital and important step in their salvation and a doctrine they must believe and accept to become a Catholic.
If priests indeed have the exclusive power to change finite bread and wine into the body and blood of the infinite Christ, and if indeed consuming His body and blood is necessary for salvation, then the whole world must become Catholic to escape the wrath of God. On the other hand, if Jesus was speaking in figurative language then this teaching becomes the most blasphemous and deceptive hoax any religion could impose on its people. There is no middle ground. Therefore the question of utmost importance is -- Was the message Jesus conveyed to the Jewish multitude to be understood as literal or figurative? Rome has never presented a good argument for defending its literal interpretation. Yet there are at least seven convincing reasons why this passage must be taken figuratively.
Counterfeit Miracle
There is no Biblical precedent where something supernatural occurred where the outward evidence indicated no miracle had taken place. (The wafer and wine look, taste and feel the same before and after the supposed miracle of transubstantion). When Jesus changed water into wine, all the elements of water changed into the actual elements of wine.
Drinking Blood Forbidden
The Law of Moses strictly forbade Jews from drinking blood (Leviticus 17:10-14) A literal interpretation would have Jesus teaching the Jews to disobey the Mosaic Law. This would have been enough cause to persecute Jesus. (See John 5:16)
Biblical Disharmony
When John 6:53 is interpreted literally it is in disharmony with the rest of the Bible. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you," gives no hope of eternal life to any Christian who has not consumed the literal body and blood of Christ. It opposes hundreds of Scriptures that declare justification and salvation are by faith alone in Christ.
Produces Dilemma
It appears that the "eating and drinking" in verse 6:54 and the "believing" in verse 6:40 produce the same result - eternal life. If both are literal we have a dilemma. What if a person "believes" but does not "eat or drink"? Or what if a person "eats and drinks" but does not "believe?" This could happen any time a non-believer walked into a Catholic Church and received the Eucharist. Does this person have eternal life because he met one of the requirements but not the other? The only possible way to harmonize these two verses is to accept one verse as figurative and one as literal.
Figurative In Old Testament
The Jews were familiar with "eating and drinking" being used figuratively in the Old Testament to describe the appropriation of divine blessings to one's innermost being. It was God's way of providing spiritual nourishment for the soul. (See Jeremiah 15:16; Isaiah 55:1-3; and Ezekiel 2:8, 3:1)
Jesus Confirmed
Jesus informed His disciples there were times when He spoke figuratively (John 16:25) and often used that type of language to describe Himself. The Gospel of John records seven figurative declarations Jesus made of Himself -- "the bread of life" (6:48), "the light of the world" (8:12), "the door" (10:9), "the good shepherd" (10:11), "the resurrection and the life" (11:25), "the way, the truth and the life" (14:6), and "the true vine" (15:1). He also referred to His body as the temple (2:19).
Words Were Spiritual
Jesus ended this teaching by revealing "the words I have spoken to you are spirit" (6:63). As with each of the seven miracles in John's Gospel, Jesus uses the miracle to convey a spiritual truth. Here Jesus has just multiplied the loaves and fish and uses a human analogy to teach the necessity of spiritual nourishment. This is consistent with His teaching on how we are to worship God. "God is Spirit and His worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). As we worship Christ He is present spiritually, not physically. In fact, Jesus can only be bodily present at one place at one time. His omnipresence refers only to His spirit. It is impossible for Christ to be bodily present in thousands of Catholic Churches around the world.
When Jesus is received spiritually, one time in the heart, there is no need to receive him physically,
“We use different terminology, and view the thing from the standpoint of a more sophisticated, more mature, and deeper understanding of theology.
Signing on to the Protestant understanding of ”born again and Spirit filled” is several steps backward in spiritual and intellectual development.”
Wow, well aren’t you just the smartest boy in the class?!
No, I do not think you are born again, dsc.....no believer would speak like that to a fellow believer. There is the Catholic arrogance and looking down the nose at anyone outside of its walls in all its glory.
You just gave away what you truly are, dsc....a Catholic snob. lol
It takes absolutely no sophistication or great intellect at all to understand the simple message of the Gospel...even a little child can understand. Seems that is the kind of thing the Pharisees might have said of Peter or any of the other disciples they did not consider sophisticated or intellectual enough to follow Jesus. But Jesus did not choose those who thought themselves smarter or more knowledgeable. He chose simple men....men who could be taught His simple truths. Not a Pharisee among them until Joseph of Arimathea.
I stand by what I said before...no true believer stays in a Catholic church once born again.
Thanks for your comment.
I think a child could grasp a few words in this passage
19Then he took a loaf of bread; and when he had thanked God for it, he broke it in pieces and gave it to the disciples, saying, “This is my body, given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20After supper he took another cup of wine and said, “This wine is the token of God’s new covenant to save you—an agreement sealed with the blood I will pour out for you.
Remembrance, Token, and Covenant. This is symbolic just as The Passover observance after The Exodus was a symbolic observance and remembrance. Jesus Christ is where He is asked to be and welcomed. Christ said where two or more gather in His name he is also there. People tend to think of Christ staying in heaven but scripture points otherwise. In spirit He dwells among those who believe.
I've said this many times. You can destroy every written paper of The Gospel and The Gospel will survive and be told. Not because man has kept it in existence but because it is written into our hearts. The Holy Spirit ministers what we need to know and understand to us. The Gates of Hell can not prevail against it. The new church the new foundation the Rock is GOD revealing Jesus Christ to us. The New Testament Church is one of revelation a one on one ministry from The Holy Spirit to man.
Peter was the leader of the Disciples but Paul through the revelation by The Holy Spirit wrote the basic guidance's for the churches to go by.
Why should people doubt that the establishment of other churches who worship Jesus Christ and proclaim Him as Lord and Savior are not part of GOD's plan? Differences in theological issues were there even among the chosen 12. As well a simple disagreement between Paul and Barnabas lead to their separation and doubled in effect their ministry outreach.
Which Church is The Church? The Church is the believers and followers of Jesus Christ who accept God's Covenant. It's basic, it's simple, it is so a child can learn it.
Matt ch 18 1About that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Which of us is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?” 2Jesus called a small child over to him and put the child among them. 3Then he said, “I assure you, unless you turn from your sins and become as little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. 4Therefore, anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. 5And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who trusts in me to lose faith, it would be better for that person to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around the neck.
I believe if GOD calls or The Holy Spirit leads a person a person to be a in a Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Charismatic, or Pentecostal church etc which proclaim The Gospel then a person should do such. That is between them and GOD and for Him to sort out as to the whys and how comes. If GOD wants more Catholics, Baptist, or whatever it is certainly His right to call persons to that church via The Holy Spirit.
I believe the multitude of churches are merely a means or tool to spread The Gospel to all nations. I also believe that because I think this worlds time is quickly reaching it's end.
Please make your case that we need to make our case using the Bible.
These quotes of yours were refuted already. Thanks for playing and don’t forget your lovely parting gift.
You may feel free to put my name at the top of the list. I left the Catholic Church due to poor Catechesis and became a prot. After sitting down and reading the Bible and being challenged by a very knowledgeable Catholic I found my way back to Jesus in the Catholic Church and have been in full communion ever since.
Well, thanks, but I am not advocating any denomination or religion. Just Jesus.
That said I believe the Catholic church is not truly Christian and as such is a mission field in need of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
But they are not the only one by far. I treat them all the same and speak to them of Jesus and the need to be born again and filled with the Spirit.
It is hard to find fault with truth.
You made my case till your last couple of paragraphs. These are the kinds of comments that have an ecumenical spirit that is not biblical.
Thanks, but I will continue on.
Thanks for playing. You are not a winner this time, but feel free to try again!!! What is your authority? What denomination?
Paul wrote a letter to the Galatians that aptly applies to your claims. You can take it as personal advice! It was the Holy Spirit talking for eternity!
Galatians 3: 3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
I Corinthians 10:16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?
If Christ is not present in the Eucharist, then either Jesus Christ Himself, God from God, only begotten Son of God is a liar, or Scripture is in error and misquotes Christ. Every other alternative the Self Alone crowd weaves is an attempt to delude the gullible by claiming that Scripture requires the very linguistic skills the the same Self Alone people insist are not required to understand Scripture.
Anyone who does not have sufficient faith in Jesus Christ to accept the hard teaching that He is present in the bread and wine is turning and walking away from Jesus Christ. They cannot be led by or filled by the Holy Spirit because they have rejected Jesus Christ.
Those who continue to deny the deity of Christ by calling Jesus Christ a liar can fool themselves however they like, but they should get used to the idea of hearing, "I never knew you" from the very Jesus Christ they don't have faith in.
I don't agree with their dogma as such but I know their fruits and what they have become. Then again even though I was raised Baptist I don't fully agree with one of my cousins who is a Baptist Minister. I don't try and convert my cousins and vice versa. One of my Catholics aunts was filled with joy because her son received Christ she didn't care he attended a Baptist church. By the way when she passed local priest could not make the 20 mile journey to the funeral because it was too far. So her Nephew Priest drove 175 miles one way to preside.
I reckon though the second time I got married is one for the books LOL. We were married in a Catholic Chapel in the hospital by our preacher with hospital chaplain {Priest} and several Nuns as guest. The Nuns were very Christ like in how they treated and shielded my then girl friend now wife of 28 years from physical harm. I believe GOD gave The Pope his purpose, Billy Graham his purpose, and a street preacher his purpose or calling as well.
But as for church? With the exception of my daughters wedding and funerals I don't go anymore. A neurological issue that makes me spasm and jerk at certain sounds makes it difficult and disruptive.
Both Catholics and Protestants need to stop trying to convert each other and minister too the lost. Did Christ know even in His time with The Disciples that there would be many sects of followers? Yes and He certainly addressed that with them. They were jealous of a sect that was healing and casting out demons in His name.
Mark chapter 9 38John said to Jesus, “Teacher, we saw a man using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he isn’t one of our group.” 39“Don’t stop him!” Jesus said. “No one who performs miracles in my name will soon be able to speak evil of me. 40Anyone who is not against us is for us. 41If anyone gives you even a cup of water because you belong to the Messiah, I assure you, that person will be rewarded.
Wow, Rashputin, just wow.
I think I will leave you to your deception.
Why is it that you guys cannot see that verse for what it really means, and that is spiritual and not physical?
Oh yes, not indwelt with the Spirit....just what I have been saying all along.
Thanks for posting.
I was supposed to go to bed two hours ago, so will save my reply to this till later. :)
Thanks,
jodyel
What you've been saying all along is that you've done the same thing, walked away from Christ, therefore you do not follow Christ.
People who walk away from Christ have no faith in Christ. They can, like Eve, substitute their own understanding for faith in Christ if they like, but they have no life in them which is why they call Scipture they want to ignore "deception" the same way they call Jesus Christ Himself a liar then pretend they're "Christian".
John 15:6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and: they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth.
John 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you.
People who don't have the faith to physically obey Christ don't have the faith to spiritually follow Christ, either. They refuse to abide in Christ spiritually because Jesus Christ expects them to physically follow Jesus Christ as in :
Luke 6:46 And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?
I Corinthians 9:27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection : lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.
A little bit of this, some of that, a smidgen of something else; and by gum; you’ve got an Essential DOCTRINE!
He(she?) likes you and is following you on Twitter; too!
I liked MY answer better!
The fact that large groups of Christians (still less the Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus etc...) can disagree so profoundly, reinforces the idea that a God who can so imperfectly communicate his word is no omnipotent being at all.
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 11:25:21 PM by jodyel
2 posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 11:27:54 PM by narses
You kinda quick yerself, N.
The RCC seems to want to limit this POWER to Peter; instead of ALL disciples.
No Catholic hoop jumping found in THIS statement, either...
Postus interruptus?
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