More cutting and pasting of rote error from the Roman conclave! Here's a box of "Narses's own interpretation...". Of course, it is not his own, we all know. The Catholic order does not allow for the Holy Spirit to show you the Way...
Posted on 09/17/2013 8:25:21 PM PDT by jodyel
"Unless You Eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and Drink His Blood You Have No Life In You"
Are these words of Jesus from John 6:53 to be taken literally or figuratively? The Roman Catholic Church teaches the context of John chapter six and the above headlined verse 53 are literal. Thus Jesus is giving absolute and unconditional requirements for eternal life. In fact, this literal interpretation forms the foundation for Rome's doctrine of transubstantiation -- the miraculous changing of bread and wine into the living Christ, His body and blood, soul and divinity. Each Catholic priest is said to have the power to call Jesus down from the right hand of the Father when he elevates the wafer and whispers the words "Hoc corpus meus est." Catholics believe as they consume the lifeless wafer they are actually eating and drinking the living body and blood of Jesus Christ. This is a vital and important step in their salvation and a doctrine they must believe and accept to become a Catholic.
If priests indeed have the exclusive power to change finite bread and wine into the body and blood of the infinite Christ, and if indeed consuming His body and blood is necessary for salvation, then the whole world must become Catholic to escape the wrath of God. On the other hand, if Jesus was speaking in figurative language then this teaching becomes the most blasphemous and deceptive hoax any religion could impose on its people. There is no middle ground. Therefore the question of utmost importance is -- Was the message Jesus conveyed to the Jewish multitude to be understood as literal or figurative? Rome has never presented a good argument for defending its literal interpretation. Yet there are at least seven convincing reasons why this passage must be taken figuratively.
Counterfeit Miracle
There is no Biblical precedent where something supernatural occurred where the outward evidence indicated no miracle had taken place. (The wafer and wine look, taste and feel the same before and after the supposed miracle of transubstantion). When Jesus changed water into wine, all the elements of water changed into the actual elements of wine.
Drinking Blood Forbidden
The Law of Moses strictly forbade Jews from drinking blood (Leviticus 17:10-14) A literal interpretation would have Jesus teaching the Jews to disobey the Mosaic Law. This would have been enough cause to persecute Jesus. (See John 5:16)
Biblical Disharmony
When John 6:53 is interpreted literally it is in disharmony with the rest of the Bible. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you," gives no hope of eternal life to any Christian who has not consumed the literal body and blood of Christ. It opposes hundreds of Scriptures that declare justification and salvation are by faith alone in Christ.
Produces Dilemma
It appears that the "eating and drinking" in verse 6:54 and the "believing" in verse 6:40 produce the same result - eternal life. If both are literal we have a dilemma. What if a person "believes" but does not "eat or drink"? Or what if a person "eats and drinks" but does not "believe?" This could happen any time a non-believer walked into a Catholic Church and received the Eucharist. Does this person have eternal life because he met one of the requirements but not the other? The only possible way to harmonize these two verses is to accept one verse as figurative and one as literal.
Figurative In Old Testament
The Jews were familiar with "eating and drinking" being used figuratively in the Old Testament to describe the appropriation of divine blessings to one's innermost being. It was God's way of providing spiritual nourishment for the soul. (See Jeremiah 15:16; Isaiah 55:1-3; and Ezekiel 2:8, 3:1)
Jesus Confirmed
Jesus informed His disciples there were times when He spoke figuratively (John 16:25) and often used that type of language to describe Himself. The Gospel of John records seven figurative declarations Jesus made of Himself -- "the bread of life" (6:48), "the light of the world" (8:12), "the door" (10:9), "the good shepherd" (10:11), "the resurrection and the life" (11:25), "the way, the truth and the life" (14:6), and "the true vine" (15:1). He also referred to His body as the temple (2:19).
Words Were Spiritual
Jesus ended this teaching by revealing "the words I have spoken to you are spirit" (6:63). As with each of the seven miracles in John's Gospel, Jesus uses the miracle to convey a spiritual truth. Here Jesus has just multiplied the loaves and fish and uses a human analogy to teach the necessity of spiritual nourishment. This is consistent with His teaching on how we are to worship God. "God is Spirit and His worshippers must worship in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). As we worship Christ He is present spiritually, not physically. In fact, Jesus can only be bodily present at one place at one time. His omnipresence refers only to His spirit. It is impossible for Christ to be bodily present in thousands of Catholic Churches around the world.
When Jesus is received spiritually, one time in the heart, there is no need to receive him physically,
“Ping Bergoglio for all I care, just ask him to watch the videos!”
Oh, don’t take seriously Narses’ ping. He’s pinged the Inquisition like that on me dozens of times, but nothing ever comes of it.
Recommended for nutritious breakfasts by Dr Gene Scott, Harold Camping, Billy Graham, Paul Crouch, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson and many others.
CREDO QUIA ABSURDUM - I believe because it is absurd (or impossible). A phrase attributed (maybe falsely) to Tertullian (160-220), by which is meant that a Christian believer is not scandalized at the apparent absurdity or impossibility of such revealed mysteries as the Incarnation, that God became man, or the Real Presence, that Christ is truly present under the Eucharist species.
Why is one miracle less likely than another?
That’s worthless. What is the biblical basis for YOUR salvation? it matters not what Rome teaches. Rome can’t save you. On that Day every pope, cardinal, and priest will be doing business with Christ Jesus, just like every other son of Adam. They won’t be there to hold your hand and you won’t be able to offer links or even read from your catechism. You will be judged alone. In that moment, what’s the basis of your salvation?
You asked for it. You got it. Dare you to read those links.
” I believe because it is absurd (or impossible). A phrase attributed (maybe falsely) to Tertullian (160-220), by which is meant that a Christian believer is not scandalized at the apparent absurdity or impossibility of such revealed mysteries as the Incarnation, that God became man, or the Real Presence, that Christ is truly present under the Eucharist species.”
Lots of people believe in the real presence of Christ during the Lord’s Supper. Not too many people believe in Roman Catholic transubstantiation though. The question is, did Tertullian believe that the bread and wine was literally transformed into the body and blood of Christ?
“He says, it is true, “that the flesh profits nothing;” John 6:63 but then, as in the former case, the meaning must be regulated by the subject which is spoken of. Now, because they thought His discourse was harsh and intolerable, supposing that He had really and literally enjoined on them to eat his flesh, He, with the view of ordering the state of salvation as a spiritual thing, set out with the principle, “It is the spirit that quickens;” and then added, “The flesh profits nothing,”— meaning, of course, to the giving of life. He also goes on to explain what He would have us to understand by spirit: “The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” In a like sense He had previously said: “He that hears my words, and believes in Him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but shall pass from death unto life.” John 5:24 Constituting, therefore, His word as the life-giving principle, because that word is spirit and life, He likewise called His flesh by the same appellation; because, too, “the Word had become flesh,” John 1:14 we ought therefore to desire Him in order that we may have life, and to devour Him with the ear, and to ruminate on Him with the understanding, and to digest Him by faith.” (Tertullian, On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 37. “Christ’s Assertion About the Unprofitableness of the Flesh Explained Consistently with Our Doctrine.”)
Unless you believe Christ was really eating and drinking His own body, and was lying when He called the cup, after the prayer, “the fruit of the vine,” then we’re forced to side with Tertullian against transubstantiation.
You can flash your Roman Catholic trump card at me till the saints go marching in. Its a game I stopped playing long ago.
The Holy Spirit lives inside me. I am saved. There is no set of Pharisitic like rules that can keep me from knowing this.
I believe that what you believe IS WRONG.
I know what Rome teaches. I have studied and analyzed Rome’s teaching and system for decades now. I want to know what you base your hope of salvation on. The Bible tells us to be prepared to give an answer for the hope that lies within us. So I am asking you to explain your hope.
I’m off to bed, so no rush.
“I’m off to bed, so no rush.”
Ugh, I have to get up at 6am, and here I am messing with the Catholics!
G’night!
I’ll be honest and admit I am not interested in your links because I know what Rome teaches and I know it is at odds with biblical Christianty.
You really should watch the videos of the former Irish priest I posted. Don’t let your pride keep you from at least testing the validity of your faith. Pride goeth before a fall.
“There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.”
Jesus divided the bread, poured the wine and partook of both before it was presented to the disciples. I do not doubt that Christ performed this transubstantiation.
More cutting and pasting of rote error from the Roman conclave! Here's a box of "Narses's own interpretation...". Of course, it is not his own, we all know. The Catholic order does not allow for the Holy Spirit to show you the Way...
This is just another attempt to distract from the truth we have received through the Holy Spirit. The poster has no place to go but always try and distract by sleight of hand... They claim "radiation" trumps Scripture. That road leads straight to the pits of hell!
Don't waste your time, Jody!
Ephesians 6: 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
How does a mere human being do such a thing? Even Peter did not claim such a thing!
If I am wrong, I honestly wish to read the scriptural reference.
Deep.
Secondly, as St. Paul taught us in his letters, using the analogy of the human body, the Church is the Body of Christ, in which many members are united with Christ their head (1 Cor 10:16-17, 12:12-31; Rom 12:4-8).
That's a goofy, unbiblical statement but perhaps it reflects a position of the Catholic religion...
In the 'real' church, ALL the members are united with Christ, not just 'many'...
But as we know, Catholicism teaches that all baptized Catholics are in the Body of Christ so perhaps this author is suggesting that not all members of the Catholic body of Christ are united with Christ...
Who knows what they mean when they pervert the scriptures...
This reality is frequently referred to as the Mystical Body of Christ. All those united to Christ, the living and the dead, are joined together as one Body in Christ. This union is not one that can be seen by human eyes
, for it is a mystical union brought about by the power of the Holy Spirit. The Mystical Body of Christ and the eucharistic Body of Christ are inseparably linked. By Baptism we enter the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church
And of course when they say Church, they mean the visible Catholic Church...So we have quite a contradiction going on here...In one sentence they claim the 'church' can not be seen because it is 'mystical'...In the next sentence they claim it can be seen where ever you see a Catholic...
There is no mystical body of Christ...The word doesn't even exist in the scriptures...The word is spiritual...
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Notice it does not say, 'God is a Mystic: and we must worship him in mysticism and truth...
We'll leave the mystical mysticists to the occults...
I can't imagine reading the entire piece...I don't care to stay up all night correcting it...
It is a good tradition to discuss these issues.
I believe that how another expresses their faith, how scripture is revealed to them, is not to be argued, just discussed in all respect and love.
That we both agree on the basic tenants of the Faith, makes us brethren.
“...and the instrumentality of the priest.”
All believers are members of what Peter called “the royal priesthood.” There is one High Priest, and He is Jesus. No other hierarchy of priests is recognized in the Bible: Jesus, the High Priest and every believer a priest.
There is nothing special about the priesthood of Roman Catholicism.
God sets the rules...He doesn't leave it to your Catholic religion...
Jesus RIGHT NOW is in heaven sitting there...Everything we read in the scriptures tells us he is still sitting there...He hasn't left...
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Jesus hasn't move off his throne for 2000 years...He doesn't need to...He sent the Holy Spirit in his place...He said so...
In my opinion, the differences Christians have between their beliefs is irrelevent compared to the majesty that is Jesus Christ.
Jesus’s power to heal and forgive and bring a soul to God is like a vast ocean, stretching from horizon to horizon.
Arguing Christians are like buzzing gnats hoving over that ocean, stabbing at each other.
Jesus manifested infinity. Turning to him with your soul is an act so profound, it should silence your tongue with the sheer, staggering immensity of it.
Instead, two thousand years of... this.
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