Signs of a Cult

http://www.reachingcatholics.org/signs.html ^ | Unknown | Greg Durel

[Rashputin]

Except for the entertainment value of watching heads explode the RF on FR is a waste of time.

It reminds me of once when it was my turn to babysit the drunk tank and there were a half dozen obnoxious drunks along with four guys who were tripping on mushrooms locked up. Someone would say something they thought was profound then the loud drunks would start yelling and cursing because they saw themselves as the only true purveyors of profundity.

The mushroom crowd would settle down and verbally paint pretty pictures for one another and the drunks would settle into talking about the good ole' days, but after awhile either a doper or a drunk would be profound again and the shouting would start all over.

That crowd quoted an amazing amount of Scripture, too. Each and every one of them was positive that they and they alone knew what Scripture really meant because they were personally blessed with insight into the mind of God

JMHO

[mlizzy]

Of course, to label the Catholic Church as a “cult,” one must simply ignore the lives of the saints—people who have exhibited heroic virtue—often to a degree that is in itself manifestly miraculous. Singing hymns while being roasted alive—stuff like that... And the out-and-out miracles—prodigious healings of illness, lost limbs, lost eyes, etc.

True!

I keep a picture of St. Dymphna [Patron of Victims of Nervous Disorders] at my computer so when the nuttiness online (or in the news in general) gets to be too much, I can call upon her name.

An excerpt: It was not long, however, until an unexpected cloud overshadowed the happy childhood of the beautiful girl. She lost her good mother by death. Many were the secret tears she shed over this bereavement, but at the same time she found great comfort in the Divine Faith which, though she was still of a tender age, already had taken deep root.

Dymphna's father, too, greatly mourned his deceased wife and for a long time continued prostrate with grief. At length he was persuaded by his counselors to seek solace in a second marriage. So he commissioned certain ones of his court to seek out for him a lady who would be like his first spouse in beauty and character. After visiting many countries in vain, the messengers returned saying that they could find none so charming and amiable as his own lovely daughter, Dymphna. Giving ear to their base suggestion, the king conceived the evil design of marrying Dymphna. With persuasive and flattering words he manifested his purpose to her. Dymphna, as may be expected, was greatly horrified at the suggestion, and asked for a period of forty days to consider the proposal. She immediately betook herself to Father Gerebran, who advised her to flee from her native country, and since the danger was imminent, he urged her to make no delay.

With all speed, therefore, she set out for the continent, accompanied by Father Gerebran, the court jester and his wife. After a favorable passage, they arrived on the coast near the present city of Antwerp. Having stopped for a short rest, they resumed their journey and came to a little village named Gheel. Here they were hospitably received and began to make plans for establishing their future abode at this place.

The king, in the meantime, having discovered Dymphna's flight, was fearfully angry, and immediately set out with his followers in search of the fugitives. After some time, they were traced to Belgium and their place of refuge was located. At first, Dymphna's father tried to persuade her to return with him, but Father Gerebran sternly rebuked him for his wicked intentions, whereupon he gave orders that Father Gerebran should be put to death. Without delay, his wicked retainers laid violent hands upon the priest and struck him on the neck with a sword. With one blow of the steel, the head was severed from the shoulders and another glorious martyr went to join the illustrious heroes of Christ's kingdom.

Further attempts on the part of Dymphna's father to induce her to return with him proved fruitless. With undaunted courage she spurned his enticing promises and scorned his cruel threats. Infuriated by her resistance, the father drew a dagger from his belt and he himself struck off the head of his child. Recommending her soul to the mercy of God, the holy virgin fell prostrate at the feet of her insanely raving father. Thus the glorious crown of martyrdom was accorded to St. Dymphna in the fifteenth year of her age, on the fifteenth day of May, between 620 and 640. The day of her death has been assigned as her feastday.

The records of Dymphna's life and death say that the bodies of the two martyred saints lay on the ground for quite some time after their death, until the inhabitants of Gheel removed them to a cave, which was the customary manner of interment in that part of the world at the time of the martyrdoms. But after several years had elapsed, the villagers, recalling their holy deaths, decided to give the bodies a more suitable burial. When the workmen removed the heap of black earth at the cave's entrance, great was their astonishment to find two most beautiful tombs, whiter than snow, which were carved from stone, as if by angel hands. When the coffin of St. Dymphna was opened there was found lying on her breast a red tile bearing the inscription:

"Here lies the holy virgin and martyr, Dymphna."

Dear sweet Dymphna, pray for us!

[BlueDragon]

"Now that it has been proven (use the link above, to the Vatican website) that the “quote” from Pope Paul VI was fake— ..."

Excuse me, but the quote itself, word-for-word, attributed to pope Paul VI can indeed be found at http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19680630_credo_en.html at #23.

There is a bit of further trouble with the continuance in which you offered;

"...that, indeed, it said the OPPOSITE of “all non-Catholics are damned”

in that the OP nor the writer Greg Durel did not here say what you put in quotation marks, immediately above.

So who is misquoting who?

What the writer of the author of the article (Greg Durel) included was not a "fake" quote. One could argue that it be a limited quote, or even a quite taken out of context.

That the Vatican documents say one thing, then another, is not the OP's or Durel's duty to explain in detail how the seeming having-it-both ways, so called "Apostolic Letter" accomplishes that feat.

Equating what was cited by Durel as equaling in meaning as “all non-Catholics are damned” were your own words to describe what you perceived as how they both perceived the meanings of the quotes...

Personally myself, I have read enough of those sort of "Letters" to see what it is that is being said, and how one statement or a set of statements are later (particularly since Vatican II) are explained away in one sense, but then recovered with declaration along the lines [of meaning] that not only as in past centuries "all must be subject to the Roman Pontiff", there is claim sought sought to be applied that all Christians are, whether they "know it" or not.

That's good work if you can get it?

[Rashputin]

Walter Martin who wrote Kingdon of The Cults considered Catholicism, Calvinism, and Arminianism, all apostate Christians, not cults. The crowd you're dealing with considers Martin to have been, at best, an apostate Chistian for not calling all three cults.

[Arthur McGowan]

FAKE “QUOTE” from Paul VI:

1) “WE BELIEVE THE CHURCH IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION BECAUSE CHRIST, WHO IS THE SOLE MEDIATOR AND EXCLUSIVE WAY OF SALVATION, RENDERS HIMSELF PRESENT FOR US IN HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH. WE MUST ALWAYS REMEMBER THE UNITY OF THE MYSTICAL BODY, WITHOUT WHICH THERE CAN BE NO SALVATION, IS OPEN TO NO ONE OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.” Pope Paul VI

REAL QUOTE from Paul VI:

22. Recognizing also the existence, outside the organism of the Church of Christ, of numerous elements of truth and sanctification which belong to her as her own and tend to Catholic unity, and believing in the action of the Holy Spirit who stirs up in the heart of the disciples of Christ love of this unity, we entertain the hope that the Christians who are not yet in the full communion of the one only Church will one day be reunited in one flock with one only shepherd.

23. We believe that the Church is necessary for salvation, because Christ, who is the sole mediator and way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church. But the divine design of salvation embraces all men; and those who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seek God sincerely, and under the influence of grace endeavor to do His will as recognized through the promptings of their conscience, they, in a number known only to God, can obtain salvation.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19680630_credo_en.html

As you can see quite easily, the fake quote represents Paul VI as saying that all non-Catholics are damned. The real quote says exactly the opposite. The whole point of this thread was to accuse the Catholic Church of teaching that all non-Catholics are damned, and that the Catholic Church is therefore a “cult” (in some negative, one might say “damning,” sense).

[wintertime]

23. We believe that the Church is necessary for salvation, because Christ, who is the sole mediator and way of salvation, renders Himself present for us in His body which is the Church. But the divine design of salvation embraces all men; and those who without fault on their part do not know the Gospel of Christ and His Church, but seek God sincerely, and under the influence of grace endeavor to do His will as recognized through the promptings of their conscience, they, in a number known only to God, can obtain salvation.

So?..Does this mean that all former Catholics are condemned to hell because they left the church because they have concluded that it is corrupt and in error? Do you see how such a teaching above is cult-like in its emotional manipulation?

[Arthur McGowan]

So:

1) The Catholic Church is a cult because it teaches that all non-Catholics are damned.

2) Your version of Christianity (which you have not named, AFAIK) teaches that, because Catholics don’t accept your version of Christianity, they are all damned. That makes your version of Christianity a “cult,” doesn’t it?

BTW: You haven’t answered my question: If a person is a seeker of truth, why would he invent, or repeat (as you did), a fake quotation from Pope Paul VI? Is not the normal term for a person who bases his arguments on fake quotations “a liar”?

[Arthur McGowan]

No. If they are sincerely following the promptings of their conscience, of course they are not damned.

I.e., some who leave the Catholic Church may be saved, others who leave the Catholic Church may be damned. Everything depends on their intellectual honesty.

[Arthur McGowan]

You never heard of the “heavenly Jerusalem”?

[WVKayaker]

The only motive for believing that the New Testament is the inspired Word of God is that Catholics wrote it, Catholics used it in the liturgy, Catholics discerned what writings belonged and what writing didn’t, and Catholic bishops in council decided once and for all what would be included in the Canon. -AM

How ridiculous and how presumptuous. The motive for believing that the New Testament is the inspired word of God is that the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts. Without the leading of the Holy Spirit, no man can put those words to paper as they appeared. Without the Holy Spirit, no group of men could decide on Canon. It is tragic how the Catholic Church claims to be the Holy Spirit's mouthpiece. How else could what you wrote be interpreted?

Why are you so devoted to a book produced in and preserved by the Catholic Church, if you are so contemptuous of the Catholic Church? -AM

My devotion is to Jesus Christ, and his word is the record God has provided. I am contemptuous of a group claiming to speak for God as does the Catholic Church. There was an earlier warning concerning the one unforgivable sin, and that is to deny the power of the Holy Spirit. It is to attribute ungodly things as having been produced through the Holy Spirit. In that, the Roman Catholic Church excels. That is why this article shows truth and why those followers of Rome get so incensed. It is difficult when confronted with a truth that pierces the veil.

BTW: There is not one verse in all of Scripture that says that Scripture alone is the source of revelation. Thus, anyone who says that Scripture ALONE is the source of revelation is teaching a human doctrine not found in Scripture. That is, he is contradicting himself. -AM

You rant against Scripture, but cling fast to your human traditions which have no basis in God's word. Speaking of contradictions, Satan is the author of confusion. Your group wants to claim Peter as the cornerstone, the rock as it were, but Peter denied Christ, and Peter's ministry was preaching to the Jews. A proper study (exegesis) of the passage your church claims for its foundation, clearly says that Jesus is the Rock, and Peter was just a pebble. Paul would be a better role model. Paul rebuked Peter because Peter was trying to make people follow after Jewish customs (Traditions of men), and because he was being two-faced.

Most of the New Testament consists of Paul's letters to the various churches, his ministry was to the Gentiles. But he was a Jew by birth and fully educated in the law and the prophets. The people that he reached out to teach about God's love through Jesus Christ, were, like him, fully educated in the law and the prophets. So Paul wrote his letters with the foundation of God's word in the former dispensation available at that time. The former dispensation provided the law as a demonstration of sin, because just as he says so many times, how could we know about sin without the law. Paul informs us of the freedom we have through Christ, and makes it clear that our only allegiance is to God. Our only approach to God is through Jesus Christ. He is the only mediator we need. The Holy Spirit has provided the word and the inspiration and hearts so that we may know Jesus more fully.

Words on a computer screen or on a sheet of paper or vellum are useless for salvation without the work of the Holy Spirit in a heart. Repeatedly, we see how the Roman Catholic community wishes to present the church as the source for everything necessary for our salvation. Your entire post to me expresses your pride and love for your church and its traditions. Your church is a cult, and placing your trust in your church, while talking incidentally about Jesus, will have a tragic ending for too many people. Satan has a smile on his face.

Paul writes in 2 Timothy 3: 10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

[jodyel]

Unfortunately, I am beginning to turn into what the Catholics are here....just another hate mongerer...and that is not who I am.

Battling demonic doctrine and demons is not something for the faint-hearted and as much as I wish everyone to know Jesus, the horrible atmosphere by some on this site is turning me into something akin to what I am battling.

The demonic spirit of the Catholic church is in full force on this website and I greatly admire and support those that have been here years doing battle with it.

Satan has trained his minions well, but the Spirit of God will prevail in the end in spite of him.

[Arthur McGowan]

Durel quoted an actual sentence from Paul VI.

Then he introduced a fake sentence. The fake sentence is directly contradicted by what Paul VI said in the rest of paragraph 23.

[jodyel]

You rock, WV!!

[WVKayaker]

[jodyel]

Catholics see only what they want to see and only what the father of their demonic doctrine has taught them to see. They will see no other until the Spirit moves in them.

And may it be soon as times is short.

[CynicalBear]

>>Of course, to label the Catholic Church as a “cult,” one must simply ignore the lives of the saints—people who have exhibited heroic virtue—often to a degree that is in itself manifestly miraculous.<<

Oh please. Muslims strap on bombs and yell alahu akbar in their “heroic virtue”. People have willingly given their lives for many cults throughout the ages.

[jodyel]

No one has ever said they hope to see anyone in hell, but unfortunately I feel it will be so for many of the Catholics on this forum.

Of all those lost I have encountered, this lot here is by far the most entrenched, dogmatic, and demonic-bound.

No one hopes Catholics go to hell, but we fear that many, many, many surely will.

[jodyel]

How about you ask him your question since he is the author of the piece?

You do know how to use Google, don’t you?

[jodyel]

Rock on, CB!!!!

God bless ya!