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Posted on 10/12/2013 9:34:46 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
The most common objection I get to Mary as Mother of God, especially from Fundamentalists, but not limited to them, is, “The words ‘Mother of God’ are nowhere to be found in the Bible. Therefore, I will not accept it as true.”
This line of reasoning fails in dramatic fashion when carried to its logical conclusion when we consider the central mystery of the Christian Faith, the Trinity, is not found in Scripture verbatim as well. And we could go on. The Incarnation would fall by the wayside. Essential terms we use to do theology, like homoousios (Gr.—same nature, Jesus has the “same nature” as his Father), hypostatic union, the circumincessions of the persons of the Blessed Trinity, etc. All gone! The canon of Scripture, the nature of the sacrament of Holy Matrimony, and so much more we believe as Christians would be out the door because none of these things are made explicit in Scripture.
And this is not to mention “justification by faith alone.” Can anyone agree there is just a bit of irony in the fact that the same fellow who tells me he will not accept Mary as “Mother of God” because those words “are not found in the Bible,” will accept justification by faith alone when the only time those words are found in the Bible the words “not by” are right in front of them (cf. James 2:24)?
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.com ...
Actual points of the debate over the efficacy of the scripture posted (2Ti 3:16-17) as the proof text sola scriptura.
If you have something to discuss relevant to that, please post.
“This is not at all close to meaning sola.
A lime is profitable or useful for a perfect cuba libre. Sugar is profitable, useful for a perfect cake...”
In which case, you would propose then that something other than the word of God must be added to the scripture to make it perfect, since of itself it is only an ingredient. But this is just a repetition of what you said before, and you ignore the phrase “That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” which completes his assertion on the value of God given scripture. If something is profitable unto completion, then it is far better than just some sugar added to a cake.
And what do we know about that??? Whatever we know about that we get from the scriptures and no place else...
We know that God was manifest in the flesh...We know that in some things Jesus was limited...Example; when speaking of the 2nd Coming, Jesus says he didn't even know the day nor hour even tho he says he and the Father are one...
Jesus' human was susceptible to aging and ultimately death...Was that a divine body??? We know that Jesus' body had to be changed before it was taken to heaven...
Some of us know that there is a spiritual circumcision where the body of Christians is separated from the soul and spirit which is an operation performed by God at the moment of receiving the Holy Spirit...Whereby, the body, the 'old man', is separated from 'new man' which is the soul and spirit...
We know that our 'old man', body, can not go to heaven until it is made incorruptable...And we know we are made in the image of God...
So was the body of Jesus divine??? So what evidence do have that Jesus' human body was divine???
There is absolutely nothing is scripture that indicates Mary received special gifts because she was blessed...So I can't agree with you...
You hit the nail on the head. Faith is action. Paul pointed out our works do not justify us. That does not mean our faith and God’s Grace are static. They are dynamic. If the root (Christ) is good so will the fruit be good. If there are no evidenced works, as James points out, then that faith is dead. All of the NT epistles give us statements the provide this “litmus test.”
Both Peter and Paul tell us to examine our lives.
No, that's not what the verse says; it's not self-referential to scripture. It is profitable, not for scripture but:
is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.If something is profitable unto completion, then it is far better than just some sugar added to a cake.
Profitable or useful is the meaning here. NOT "entirely sufficient."
Again the structure is:
A is profitable/useful for X. You could insert a great number of things, but never would you end up the formula for sola scriptura as "entirely sufficient" or "alone." It never would change it to "A is entirely sufficient" for X."
No matter what X is (e.g., "That the man of God may be perfect.." ) it doesn't change this fatal error with your proof text.
I do not have any on teens, but given other stats it is unlikely Catholics are different from the norm, in which most are fornicators.
And of never-married adult females, 25% of Evangelicals, 11% of Catholics and 14% of Mainline Protestants professed never to be have had sexual relations. Countering Conventional Wisdom: New Evidence on Religion and Contraceptive Use, Guttmacher Institute, April. 2011
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.
(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)
“No, that’s not what the verse says; it’s not self-referential to scripture. It is profitable, not for scripture but:”
How can you make such a claim when the sentence begins:
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and”
If scripture is not the subject, then the sentence is meaningless. And on this same subject of divinely inspired scripture, connected with this main sentence, Paul concludes:
“: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
If scripture cannot do this of itself, then this sentence is nonsensical, since scripture cannot furnish anyone for all good works, perhaps only some of them, or part of them, but not “all” of them, nor can it make a completed minister.
When you say “it’s not self-referential to scripture. It is profitable, not for scripture but,” it’s quite revealing since it tells me you don’t even know what it is your reading. We’re not talking about instruction in righteousness and doctrine being profitable FOR scripture. We’re talking about what scripture is profitable for causing within the believer, “that he may be perfect, thoroughly furnished,” etc.
“Profitable or useful is the meaning here. NOT “entirely sufficient.””
Again, you’re just repeating yourself in your own convoluted way. If the sentence begins “All scripture is given by inspiration of God,” and concludes “: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished with all good works,” it stands to follow that nothing else is needed to find this furnishing or completeness.
Prove it. Prove it's often the reason.
Sure, go ahead.
The term "often" is rather ambiguous, but stats i have stats, 77% of Catholics polled "believe a person can be a good Catholic without going to Mass every Sunday, 65 percent believe good Catholics can divorce and remarry, and 53 percent believe Catholics can have abortions and remain in good standing. 1999 poll by the National Catholic Reporter. http://www.catholictradition.org/v2-bombs14b.htm
The percentage of percentage of adults Protestants who have been married and divorced is 34% versus 28% for Catholics, (the survey not determining if the divorce occurred before or after conversions) while Evangelicals were at 26%. Atheists or agnostic were at 30% (only 65% were ever married, vs. 84% for born-again Christians) while those aligned with a non-Christian faith were at 38%. The largest disparity (17%) relative to divorce was between high and low income levels (22% to 39%). http://www.barna.org/family-kids-articles/42-new-marriage-and-divorce-statistics-released
Of all Protestants converts from Catholicism only 20% now evangelical) were unhappy about Catholicism's teachings on abortion/homosexuality (versus 46% of those now unaffiliated); 23% also expressed disagreement with teaching on divorce/remarriage; and just 12% now evangelical were dissatisfied with teachings on birth control. 46% said the Catholic Church did not view the Bible literally enough.
71% of converts from Catholicism to Protestant faith said that their spiritual needs were not being met in Catholicism, with 78% of Evangelical Protestants in particular concurring, versus 43% of those now unaffiliated. - http://pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/fullreport.pdf
82% of Hispanics cite the desire for a more direct, personal experience with God as the main reason for adopting a new faith. Among those who have become evangelicals, 90% say it was a spiritual search for a more direct, personal experience with God was the main reason that drove their conversion. Negative views of Catholicism do not appear to be a major reason for their conversion. - http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=75
Comments like the former are specious, as the "belittlement" is in response to an artificial exaltation of Mary not seen in Scripture. It saddens me that RC's take so many opportunities to exalt Mary far above the honor given to her by the Lord. "We must never adore her; that is for God alone. But otherwise we cannot honor her to excess." ("What the church teaches,” by Monsignor J.D. Conway)
The Spirit of Christ censures thinking of "men above that which is written," (1 Corinthians 4:6) and while Catholics cannot be said to have done so with the apostle Paul, whose sacrificial labor, love, sufferings and integrity the Holy Spirit spends far more on describing than holy Mary, who is rather marginalized in the gospels (without taking away her due honor);
yet going far beyond what is written Catholics almost defify her with the parallels to Christ ascribed to her, and teach she is ascended to Heaven, and already crowned (which happens after the resurrection) and enthroned as Queen of Heaven with almost unlimited power, including having the ability to process virtually unlimited prayer requests, (the Holy Spirit provides zero examples of prayer to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or in its instructions on who to pray to), and who is even set forth by some notable Catholics as a more immediate and superior recourse for help than Christ Himself.
And as we also oppose the egregious extrapolations of Mormons (who also held a doctrine of a heavenly mother), so we must oppose these additions to Scripture.
The emphasis is to often on what the Lord owes to Him mother, and your is is a warranted protest versus "you attack the mother of God" - and invoking the 5th commandment.
Indeed, when stating that Israel brought forth Christ, it states "of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came. (Rm. 9:5)
And as said - when one rejected this saying she played no role in our salvation - Jael was a salvific instrument of God, as she played a part in saving Israel, of whom Christ concerning the flesh came, but according to your marginalization of her, then being blessed above women can hardly carry the extreme significance which it is extrapolated to mean concerning Mary.
That is another assertion, yet the fact is that, as shown, church fathers also saw "Rock" in Mt. 16:18 as referring to Peter's confession, which was divine in nature, and which thing is easily what "this" in "this rock" refers to, in distinction from "you, Peter." And as i showed , that Jesus is the Rock is one of the most abundantly confirmed statements in the Bible, in contrast to Peter, who himself is one of those he calls "living stones." (1Pt. 2:5)
And your own CCC allows for Peter's confession being the rock, that “On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church.” (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424)
Nor did he call himself more than " servant," "an elder," and "an apostle." Nor was the church told to look to him as its supreme exalted infallible head. And though he was the initial non-assertive leader among brethren who exercised a overall shepherd role, there is no mention of any apostolic successors for the original apostles except for Judas, even though James was beheaded.
Jumping into the fray here, but while i concur some are blessed more than others (such as we have "gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us," [Romans 12:6] and unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required, [Luke 12:48], yet the word use to describe Mary as blessed above all women does not she is the most blessed due to her being more virtuous.
"Charitoo" as in Lk. 1:28, is never used for "full" elsewhere, and is wrongly rendered "full of grace" in the DRB rather than highly favored (but Rome's current official New American Bible has the latter), and which is also used of all believers in Eph. 1:6. In contrast, the only one said to be full of grace is the Lord Jesus, "full of grace and truth," using "plērēs," which denotes "full" 17 other places in the NT.
Hyperbole much? Did not the text I posted from scripture show she was blessed “among” women? But let’s put it in perspective like Jesus did.
Luke 11:27-28 27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, (Greek Menounge: nay surely, nay rather) blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
To assign YHvH's NAME to a mere mortal, It also grieves the Holy Spirit.
Matthew. 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my church,
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
One method of Hermeneutical understanding of Matthew 16:18
is to do a word study of all the scriptures which were then known
as the Holy Word of G-d when Yah'shua spoke these words.
This will allow one to understand that all of the Holy Word of G-d
was inspired by YHvH; the whole counsel of G-d.
The only conclusion that one can come to unless you are
predisposed to believe in man's tradition over the Holy Word of G-d
is that Yah'shua was speaking of himself as the "Rock "
e.g.
Peter himself refers to Yah'shua as the "rock" in
Genesis 49:24 But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed
[Or archers will attack...will shoot...will remain...will stay] supple,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
Deuteronomy 32:3 I will proclaim the name of YHvH. Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock , his works are perfect, and all his ways are
just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Deuteronomy 32:15 ..... He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Saviour.
Deuteronomy 32:30 How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten
thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless
YHvH had given them up?
Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock , as even our enemies concede
Deuteronomy 32:32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah.
Their grapes are filled with poison, and their clusters with bitterness.
1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no-one holy [Or no Holy One] like YHvH;
there is no-one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
2 Samuel 22:2 He said: "YHvH is my Rock , my fortress and my deliverer;
2 Samuel 22:3 my God is my Rock , in whom I take refuge, my shield and the
horn [Horn here symbolises strength.] of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my saviour — from violent men you save me.
2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides YHvH? And who is the Rock except our God?
2 Samuel 22:47 "YHvH lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God, the Rock , my Saviour!
2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me:
'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides YHvH? And who is the Rock except our God?
Psalm 18:46 YHvH lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God my Saviour!
Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Psalm 42:9 I say to God my Rock , "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock , that God Most High was their Redeemer.
Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Saviour.'
Psalm 92:15 ..... "YHvH is upright; he is my Rock , and there is no wickedness in him."
Psalm 95:1 Come, let us sing for joy to YHvH; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH my Rock , who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
Habakkuk 1:12 Oh YHvH, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy
One, we will not die. Oh YHvH, you have appointed them to
execute judgment; O Rock , you have ordained them to punish.
1 Peter 2:1-10 NAsbU 1 Peter 2:
It is patently clear from the Holy Word of G-d
1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,
2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
3 if you have tasted the kindness of YHvH.
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices
acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word,
and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION,
so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY,
but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
that the NAME "Rock" is a NAME that describes YHvH,
the creator of the universe.
a created being, seeks to impugn and
deny the Holy Word of G-d.
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