19th century occultic Mormon phenomena: Paranormal intermingling, demonic possession [Vanity]

Colofornian | Oct. 31, 2013 | Colofornian

[Colofornian]

5. David...

[See my last post...last part of my answer applies there as well]

6. Jesus Himself met evil spirits face to face many times and so did the original Apostles. Were they necromancers and occultists too?

#1...Jesus NEVER had to consult with anybody other than His Father/Holy Spirit...So no "necromancy" there...

#2...You may have it in your peculiar worldview that demonic-type 'angels' living forever with the Mormon god -- as Joseph Smith believed...were resurrected men..
...see The Doctrine and Covenants [132:17: Non-abiding 'angels' remain with Mormon god, said Smith]; ...
...but the Biblical worldview is that demonic spirits were never men & hence never died as men.

[Colofornian]

4. When Eldad and Medad (Numbers 11)had a spirit rest on them and they prophesied.. we're they in a haunted place filled with ghosts and demons? Was it a demon that landed on them???

You're on extremely dangerous spiritual ground here, Storm.

Numbers 11, v. 26 specifically says it was "THE" Spirit (not just "a" spirit).

In the chapter before Jesus talks about those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit (Luke 12:10), he talks about casting out demons "by the finger of God" (Luke 11:20), which MANY Bible commentators reference that "finger" as the Holy Spirit Himself: 20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." (Jesus, Luke 11:20)

If we go to Mark 3, where Jesus is referenced also talking about blaspheming the Holy Spirit (3:28-29), the context also shows a heavy focus on casting out demons in that chapter ... see Mark 3:11, 22-23 -- even to the point where Jesus defends the Holy Spirit by asking a rhetorical question in v. 23: "How can Satan cast out Satan?"

IoW, the context is all clear: Jesus was casting out demons. The Pharisees were accusing Him of casting out spirits by Satan's power. Jesus, then in Mark 3:28 (also Luke 12) essentially says,
"Hey, if you say anything against Me -- you can be forgiven"...
..."but if you're going to accuse or insinuate" (even to make some attempted apologetic point) "that the Holy Spirit was operating as Satan or satanic hosts...
...duck! Look out! Forgiveness will NEVER be yours!"

I'm not saying you believe this; but you are so wrecklessly tossing around the Holy Spirit's Name in conjunction with demonic activity, that a warning here is quite proper: It was so serious of a sin that Jesus told them flat-out "no forgiveness forthcoming" for even suggesting such ties/links.

I warn you: In God's Name, stop being so cavalier with your weak apologetics' efforts that you wind up so readily bandying out the Name of the Holy Spirit!

[Colofornian]

#3 example of Abraham...also covered in post #20.

[StormPrepper]

So you're suddenly hypersensitive about a word that just means "the dead?" What? Lds never use the word, "dead?"

So I'm "hypersensitive" when I call you out for an out right lie?

"just means "the dead?"

And here's another ugly lie. Necro is known through out literature as "evil" or "evil sorcerer". It's short for "Necromancer" or "Necromancy". It's a dark art. Equating myself and other Latter-day Saints with anything "necro" is guilt by association. It's a foul and low thing to do Colofornian.

Well, it helps if you don't wrest my commentary away from the content..

You're the one who used the word "obsessed" along with other hyperbolic phrases. Kind of like your use of the offensive word "necro" to describe me.

I guess you know you're over the top or you wouldn't be so "hypersensitive" about be called out for it.

So the supreme attention-getter of ANY subject of Joseph's last 2 or 3 years

So you consider any length of study to be "obsessed" with something? Obsession is considered an unhealthy mental state. Do doctors study medicine or are they obsessed with it? Is anyone that spends their life seeking after God, obsessed? Again you're using innuendo and lies to paint a fearful picture of me to the reader.

Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ command all men to love one another and not bear false witness against each other.

[StormPrepper]

but you are so wrecklessly[sic] tossing

I'm so reckless. *chuckle* I'm also a crazy extremist Tea Party member and a serious prepper too.

You're on extremely dangerous spiritual ground here, Storm.

It's my reckless side. I'm known for it. Ask anyone.

I'm not saying you believe this...

but...

but you are so wrecklessly[sic]..."

but we're going to assume that you do... (because I'm so reckless)

I warn you: In God's Name,...

Moses is that you!!??

being so cavalier with your weak apologetics'

I'm reckless...but weakly so. I guess I should work out more. Maybe lift more weights and my apologetics wouldn't be so weak. But if my recklessness is so weak, how much trouble can I really cause?

The post I'm quoting from was so comical, there was no way I could take it seriously.

"but if you're going to accuse or insinuate" (even to make some attempted apologetic point) "that the Holy Spirit was operating as Satan or satanic hosts... ...duck! Look out! Forgiveness will NEVER be yours!"

BTW this doctrine that Colofornian is espousing here is just asinine. Even insinuating this will get you sent straight to hell...no forgiveness for joo!



yea...whatever.

Everyone back up! I'm going to recklessly press this post button!!

BOOM!

[BlueDragon]

As was said regarding usage of the prefix necro-

"just means "the dead?"

to which you replied;

And here's another ugly lie.

Please allow me to disabuse you of that notion...for you reach for portion of culturally connotative usage (and misuage), rather than the root.

necro-

combining form prefix: necro-

1. relating to a corpse or death.
"necromancy"

Origin

Greek

nekros ------>necro-
corpse

Your statement continued;

...Necro is known through out literature as "evil" or "evil sorcerer"

which as I have shown above isn't exactly true, but as I also spoke toward, is the culturally derived connotative association, although one perhaps a bit misused by fantasy-genre "hack" paper-back writers, at least a decade or so before Harry Potter came toddling along.

Necro- as in Necromancer http://www.thefreedictionary.com/necromancer

nec·ro·man·cy
1.
The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.

As you said;

We do not baptize corpses, this is a lie.

but the LDS does "baptize" the _dead, by proxy. Hence, necro-baptism [by proxy].

And you also said;

Kind of like your use of the offensive word "necro" to describe me.

which was not done that I could see (or you may point out which reply# that statement was made, in regards to yourself specifically?), rendering the following;

command...to...not bear false witness against each other.

apparently broken, by your own self.

What was that again, you were saying about soup?

If you like, we could speak about Joseph Smith's "obsessions" and how he could fit the bill for heel, cad, fraud, huckster, swindler, etc? I can bring dictionary of those terms, upon request. Preferably, after we find some agreement upon earned and deserved (after one has done all that they honestly can do?) soup rations. bwahahhaa

Sammy Hagar - Little White Lie (Music Video) WIDESCREEN HQ [this song going out to J.Smith, who's "soup" could never now be cold, since it's most likely ON FIRE]

[Alamo-Girl]

For your discussion, here's a link to information on necro from my favorite Etymology website.

[Religion Moderator]

Do not accuse another Freeper of telling a lie, it attributes motive, the intent to deceive. It is a form of "making it personal."

Words such as "wrong" "false" "error" do not attribute motive.

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[BlueDragon]

Aah, very good. Thank you. Interesting how the sounds across many languages share some similarity, isn't it?

[Alamo-Girl]

Yes indeed! Etymology is very interesting to me.

I'm glad you found the link helpful.

[BlueDragon]

One thing I didn't at all understand in the notes at the link you provided (until I kooked up the explanation of abbreviations, lol) was the meaning for the abbreviation PIE.

Interestingly enough, in regards to this particular root "necro" and variants, in reading the other notes on that page, I thought I was seeing a Indo-Persian-European sort of spread of usage, which made me wonder as to Egyptian, also.

Woops, I said that magic word. Now the can is opened, and I hope reformed Egyptian worms don't come crawling out.

Have you ever tried to read BYU scholarship which pretends itself to in some way establish that the funeral scrolls bought by J.Smith, can translate into what J.S. claimed, that he alone at the time could understand? (the book of Abraham is tied to an Egyptian funeral scroll)

People around here may think I jibber-jabber without getting to the point. Those guys can go on for days without getting anywhere. Or present stuff by way of what seems to me to be sleight-of-hand that fools chiefly themselves. MEGO to the max.

It's rather hilarious that just a few years after Smith bought and allegedly "translated" that scroll, a decade or so, maybe two, the Rosetta Stone was decoded enough for those who work in those language fields, to begin unraveling a few remaining mysteries.

Since there is enough scholarship concerning those sort of scrolls (there are many of them, from over a span of centuries), and the meanings have been fairly well determined (the scrolls repeat the same themes --- with the rise and fall of Egyptian kings documented amongst the various collections of scrolls by reference, and what god or goddess they were associated with have their fortunes as it were, also rise and fall (or change), then the Smith "translation" should be the coffin nail, if there were not enough already...for the scrolls are many (and more repetitive than not, which is the most telling aspect) and are many "nails" as it were.

One dead and gone mistaken "god" vision-religion, coming out of the tombs like a mummy's curse breathing [from the link which you provided];

"death, natural death" (cf. Sanskrit nasyati "disappears, perishes," Avestan nasyeiti "disappears," nasu- "corpse," Old Persian vi-nathayatiy "he injures;

upon Joey's accumulation of fraud.

It's like -- majic, the kind the Pharaoh's magicians knew the tricks of. The ones which brought death.

Things are pretty grim when even the mummies cackle at ya'.

[Colofornian]

Me: "just means "the dead?"

Mistaken you: And here's another ugly lie. Necro is known through out literature as "evil" or "evil sorcerer". It's short for "Necromancer" or "Necromancy". It's a dark art. Equating myself and other Latter-day Saints with anything "necro" is guilt by association. It's a foul and low thing to do Colofornian.

Blue Dragon had it on the $ in post #26...take a good look at that...if you don't believe here...here's some links on the word Necrology:

Definition:
* 1. A list of people who have died, especially in the recent past or during a specific period.
Source: Necrology

"2013 Necrology. What is a necrology? A necrology is a listing of people who have died during a specific time period. Find A Grave necrologies let you browse the names and faces of the 75 most famous people who have died during a selected year, all the way back to 1900. They are listed in order of their Find A Grave 'fame ranking', as voted by Find A Grave contributors. To view a necrology, simply select a year from the pop up list below."
Source: Necrology per Find a Grave.com

Hmmm...Here Mormons do their own massive "gravedigging" -- well, by that I mean "digging into grave" history...
...in order to glean, names, birthdates, deathdates, etc. to necro-baptize them amidst their gathering of necrology research...
...And here, like this necrological link to "famous people," you'll find in research Mormon baptisms of the dead that they seem to love to feast upon "famous people" in the proxy process, even though their relatives are not likely to be Mormon...
>..and yet you want me to ignore all of that necrological stuff they engage in. Interesting.

[StormPrepper]

Trying to defend Colofornian's offensiveness by arguing semantics to justify it? ... Really?

Again it's the logical fallacy of guilt by association. It's logically insulting as well as morally corrupt to engage in the practice.

You argue from a single weak point while ignoring the mountain of evidence to the contrary. Your point is convoluted as well. You dig down into the Greek and use part of a single definition and claim victory.

This is cafeteria logic at it's worst. Even the definition you chose uses the word corpse. Simply being baptized in the name of someone that is deceased has no commonality with the dark art of manipulating corpses.

Not to mention the shear silliness of trying to convince us all that the poster in question had no ill intent. Their intent was completely innocuous when ascribing the term necro to Latter-day Saints like me?

[Bluedragon]which as I have shown above isn't exactly true, but as I also spoke toward, is the culturally derived connotative association, although one perhaps a bit misused by fantasy-genre "hack" paper-back writers, at least a decade or so before Harry Potter came toddling along.

The real world definition is well known in literature long before your paperbacks came into existence. And now in film. Just like I said.

The world knows what "necro" means so don't try to spin it.

Necromancy(1972)

Fiction
The final chapter of The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien mentions the White Council driving the Necromancer, a guise of Sauron, from Dol Guldur, his stronghold in Mirkwood.

Anita Blake, main character of the Vampire Hunter series by Laurell K. Hamilton, is a necromancer, and there are numerous other mentions of necromancy.

The Old Kingdom series by Garth Nix is a cycle of novels centered around the practice of necromancy and its influence on the world of the living.

Being ineffective as a means of "reuniting body and soul once death has occurred", necromancy in the Harry Potter series by J. K. Rowling is generally disparaged as "a branch of magic that has never worked." However, practitioners of the Dark Arts contrive to produce "vile substitutions" such as the reanimated corpses known as Inferi.

In the Japanese manga series Shaman King by Hiroyuki Takei, the character Johann Faust VIII is a self-taught necromancer who takes part in the Shaman Fight in order to gain the ability to bring his wife back from the dead.

A necromancer named Doll is featured amongst the core characters of ½ Prince, a series of Taiwanese novels by Yu Wo, later adapted into manhua format by Choi Hong Chong.

Nico di Angelo, a demigod character appearing in the Percy Jackson & the Olympians and The Heroes of Olympus series by Rick Riordan, wields various necromantic powers owing to his paternity by Hades, Greek god of the underworld.

Necromancy is prominent in the Skulduggery Pleasant series by Derek Landy.

Chloe Saunders, main character of the Darkest Powers trilogy by Kelley Armstrong, is a necromancer.

Kore wa Zombie Desu ka?, a series of Japanese light novels by Shinichi Kimura (which has also been adapted into manga and anime formats), features as its protagonist a zombie who was raised from the dead and befriended by a powerful necromancer.

Appearing in a series of short stories and novels by Jonathan L. Howard, the character Johannes Cabal is "a necromancer of some little infamy" who sold his soul in order to gain the ability to commune with and raise the dead.

The fourth installment of The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel by Michael Scott is entitled The Necromancer. The series, however, employs this term in a broader sense as one of several that refer to characters who are practitioners of magic, though with a darker connotation than the others.



And who can forget: The Necromicon



Film and television
In the Cartoon Network animated series The Venture Bros., Dr. Byron Orpheus is referred to as a "necromancer extraordinaire", although he has been shown to command a broad range of mystical powers. He belongs to the Order of the Triad, a team of occult practitioners, and regularly collaborates with Team Venture.

In the fifth season episode "Just Rewards" of the WB series Angel, vampires Angel and Spike try to put a rogue necromancer named Magnus Hainsley out of commission. Their task is made much harder by the fact that they are both undead and therefore susceptible to Hainsley's power.

In the second season episode "Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things" of the CW series Supernatural, Sam and Dean Winchester are forced to intervene when the teaching assistant to a professor of Ancient Greek uses a necromantic ritual to bring the professor's daughter back to life after she dies in a car accident.

Necromantic rituals conducted by the former occupant of a house are largely to blame for the supernatural forces that plague its current owners in the 2009 horror film The Haunting in Connecticut.

In the fourth season of the HBO series True Blood, antagonist Marnie Stonebrook employs necromancy to cause herself to become possessed by the spirit of Antonia Gavilán de Logroño, a witch who was burned at the stake during the Spanish Inquisition. As she was dying, Antonia used her power to gain control over all nearby vampires and subsequently caused them to walk into the sunlight, killing themselves. Marnie desires the same ability to manipulate vampires like puppets.

In the fourth season episode "Lancelot du Lac" of the BBC series Merlin, Morgana uses necromancy to bring the knight Lancelot back from the dead in order to interfere with the pending marriage of King Arthur and Guinevere, thereby preventing Guinevere from becoming queen. Morgana herself wants to be the sole ruler of Camelot.

In the third season of the FX series American Horror Story: Coven, Misty Day (Lily Rabe) portrays a necromancer. Being persecuted after being discovered by bringing a bird back to life.

Games
In Dungeons & Dragons, wizards can specialize in the school of necromancy and clerics can select death as their sphere or domain. Both accordingly gain access to spells that not only focus on death, decay, and the undead, but also various forms of life force manipulation, enabling them to heal or cause injury, cure or inflict disease, and perform resurrection.

Necromancers are a specific type of magic user in the Palladium Fantasy and Rifts role-playing games from Palladium Books. They wield a number of powers over death and the dead such as acquiring supernatural abilities by ingesting certain organs harvested from corpses and being able to merge severed limbs with their own bodies.

The necromancer is a character class in the video game Diablo II, released by Blizzard Entertainment. They can animate the dead, inflict curses, and use life-draining attacks.

It is also an Undead unit in Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos, and there are named necromancers in World of Warcraft.

In The Battle for Wesnoth, an open source turn-based strategy game, players may advance their units as practitioners of the dark arts to the level of necromancer, thereby gaining "the terrible ability to awaken the dead with false life", among other arcane powers.

Necromancy can be learned by wizards of the School of Death in the massively multiplayer online role-playing game Wizard101 from KingsIsle Entertainment.

The necromancer is available as a profession in the Guild Wars competitive online role-playing game series from NCsoft. Able to drain life energy from their enemies, they also specialize in raising undead minions and casting curses.

In the Dungeon Management game, War for the Overworld, Necromancers appear as a unit which can raise Ghouls and Revenants.

The Character Lezard Valeth, from the video game series Valkyrie Profile, is a Necromancer.



In real world "Necro", "Necromancer", "Necromancy" is all the same.

Oh and I played a "Necro" in Everquest as well. Trying to argue that it just means "dead" is silly.

[StormPrepper]

Blue Dragon had it on the $ in post #26...take a good look at that...if you don't believe here...here's some links on the word Necrology:

Are you reeeeeely wanting me to believe that is what was on your mind when you chose the word "necro"? Just innocent "dead"... totally innocuous... hahah! yeaaaaa...right.

Or is it more like "that's my story and I'm sticking to it!"

Best go read my post#33.

"gravedigging" subtle innuendo.... you just won't stop.

..and yet you want me to ignore all of that necrological stuff they engage in. Interesting.

Just won't stop. Your statement is offensive and wrong.

Oh btw, one of my ancestral lines is complete back to 100bc. And I didn't dig up a single grave to do it.

[Religion Moderator]

Attributing motives to another Freeper and making the thread "about" him are forms of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[MHGinTN]

Delphi dear, is that you? You’re trying to impugn the origins of Christianity, so I ‘feel’ it just might be you, slithering back for more of your father’s work.

[StormPrepper]

Just so I understand how the rules are applied, could you tell me the subject of post #36?

[BlueDragon]

Trying to defend Colofornian's offensiveness by arguing semantics to justify it? ... Really?

It was the semantics which were being objected to by yourself in the first place, and still are. So yes, Really, for word usage was and still is(?) the issue at hand. I can't see how that aspect can be logically denied.

Again it's the logical fallacy of guilt by association. It's logically insulting as well as morally corrupt to engage in the practice.

Well now we are getting somewhere. It wasn't the word usage itself which was entirely inaccurate, but "guilt by association" aspect which was troubling?

What is the more logically insulting is to not acknowledge that your own initial definition was incorrect, for that definition relied not upon root and actual meanings, as I plainly enough demonstrated, and as additional links have been kindly provided by others, quite neutrally by one also, as in http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3085963/posts?page=27#27.

Which leaves reactionary argument against the use of the phrase necro-baptism still inaccurate enough, for in modern English usage "necro" as prefix, most assuredly refers to "the dead" (which is what you were arguing against) any way one chooses to slice baptize it.

I did offer for usage; necro-baptism, by proxy, adding that last portion for greater precision. Why not take me up on that offer? What objection could still remain if it were to be spoken of in that manner?

As I have told a few others --- English is my native tongue. I shall not submit to demand concerning how I speak it, in regards to those whom seek to control my own free expression, although I am open to making some reasonable modification if case can be made that to do so is necessary towards greater accuracy. But if it's just part of some politics of the aggrieved, sans enough rationality to force change for reason of accuracy & truth, then I gotta' tell ya', forget it, I will not submit to whiny complaints, or someone's hurt feelings at expense of truth & clarity in course of free expression. In other words --- I shall not agree to allowing you (or most anyone other than God Himself) to unilaterally control the narrative. Got that? Good. Let's move on...

So far -- you have yet to make a convincing case that I should make any changes, other than having decided on my own to extend grace to add "by proxy" towards alleviating concern that the LDS practice routinely involves actual dead-tissue, non-living corpses be physically present and directly submerged in LDS water pools...

To get to the crux of the matter;
Does the LDS "baptize" persons now dead "by proxy", or not? That equals baptizing the dead, as regarding dead bodies themselves, yet in absentia, not being done just "verbally", but by necessity of the doctrinal practice itself, needing "a body" to submerse, would it not? Which in LDS theology and practice (though I will not admit to in efficaciousness, before God) makes the proxy, representative of the necro- as matter of fact.

This can be seen as part of the overall [so-called] LDS theology of themselves, that it is that particular "community" alone, in the persons of their "bishops" and so called "prophets" claiming for themselves being the Only True Church, with all others outside of their realm alleged to be entirely "apostate". Hence [I assume] the perceived need from within those bounds, beginning with J.Smith himself, of there being need for this doctrine of baptism of the dead by proxy --- since to this day it is alleged that it is they alone (Temple Mormons) who have the "authority" to rightfully and properly baptize. But in reaching beyond the living in this over-reach, they do in effect, reach into the realm of the dead. Necro, necro...

It is one thing to pray concerning the dead, praying for those whom have passed on, first in thanksgiving of those persons having been created to have been among the living, and in loving remembrance of them; possibly praying then also in supplication to the Lord for those persons very souls, that those be with Him always, resurrected by His power to be with Him forever, entering into His realm by the power of His own blood sacrifice

--- it is yet another thing to hold the view that this not be in no way possible for those not "Mormon" (and that the heavenly realm is, for lack of better term, "Mormonic", with persons there living much as persons do here on earth, procreating physically and naturally, per LDS theology/eschatology -- which sort of idea or thing is spoken explicitly against in the NT (At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven) with LDS officially holding doctrine that unless by the [alleged] power and "authority" of Mormons; persons not only living, but now "dead" too, be baptized by LDS authorities, in LDS Temples, either while alive, or when having already passed from life in this realm, unto [physical] death, they can in no wise enter into the kingdom (of God). What a tacked-on, big-time change in the theology/eschatology of Christ Himself LDS teachings are, for it is most certainly NOT any Mormon who has ever themselves baptized anyone with the Holy Ghost, for that portion is of the Lord's, alone. He holds Himself at limitation of the beck and call of no man, even as He can and does, in love and not inconsiderable humility, even towards us whom He has created, condescend to those of low estate...

There is nothing in the NT which authorizes the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead by proxy (much less that only Mormon baptisms be valid or recognized by Him) but the

former proffered description

one can find evidence for early, most primitive Christian mindset of, as best as I myself can here express that, from my own previous investigations.

There was one small item which you missed, even as you repeated the charge, but have seemingly and curiously now changed the meaning by introduction of the word "innocuous", which etymology for can be found the bottom of reference page previously supplied to both you and I, and Colofornian too, by Alamo Girl;

Not to mention the shear silliness of trying to convince us all that the poster in question had no ill intent. Their intent was completely innocuous when ascribing the term necro to Latter-day Saints like me?

with that item I speak of, being again the question; where precisely, what reply#, which comment did Colofornian make which ascribed the prefix or word necro- to you directly???. You need to answer that question, or drop the claim that you, yourself have had in some way, the term "necro-" ascribed directly to you.

Though curiously...I would agree with the usage of "innocuous", that is, if necro-baptism by proxy was actually in some sense "kosher" -- but if that be the connection with yourself which provides as you put it, evidence of ill intent...
I mean...how are we to determine; how to divvy soup rations, until this point be better clarified? [8^)

Oh and I played a "Necro" in Everquest as well. Trying to argue that it just means "dead" is silly.

Does Colofornian know you from there {Everquest]? Joking aside;
Trying to argue that necro- does not and cannot mean or refer to "the dead" in the context it was used, is what is beyond silly, for what are the LDS "baptisms" by proxy all about, but "baptism" of the dead, for the dead, in the dead's name [by proxy] --- unless one does this for living persons also, but again, in absentia?

If there be something along lines of guilt by association in regards to your own [bodily] person in this, since I do not see stated evidence for the "necro-" be ascribed for yourself on this thread, are we to assume that you yourself have [bodily] taken part in these necro- baptisms, by proxy? If so, there is no demand from myself for you to identify if it were yourself [bodily] as the proxy, or as the baptizer, for we need not get personal when speaking of theological concerns.

Yet still, if one takes it personal, then there is no cure, other than to in the future attempt to distance oneself, taking things at arms length, if at all possible.

We were speaking of word usage, were we not?

And now for a musical selection, one I've linked to FR pages before. In this particular piece, there is one portion of Mr. Young's lyric which may seem troubling (and which he may have meant negatively, in original intent), yet it is true enough that Christ seemingly did not "deliver"...Himself...from the cross "right away", albeit He did rise bodily from the realm of the necro, and in my own experience, has most certainly by supernatural intervention delivered my own self from great bodily harm, if not certain death, "right away" (just at the last possible seeming moment) more than once...

Soldier [upload society]

[Colofornian]

It was the semantics which were being objected to by yourself in the first place, and still are. So yes, Really, for word usage was and still is(?) the issue at hand. I can't see how that aspect can be logically denied. [Citing SP: "Again it's the logical fallacy of guilt by association. It's logically insulting as well as morally corrupt to engage in the practice."] Well now we are getting somewhere. It wasn't the word usage itself which was entirely inaccurate, but "guilt by association" aspect which was troubling?

Spot on, BD.

[To SP]As I have told a few others --- English is my native tongue. I shall not submit to demand concerning how I speak it, in regards to those whom seek to control my own free expression, although I am open to making some reasonable modification if case can be made that to do so is necessary towards greater accuracy. But if it's just part of some politics of the aggrieved, sans enough rationality to force change for reason of accuracy & truth, then I gotta' tell ya', forget it, I will not submit to whiny complaints, or someone's hurt feelings at expense of truth & clarity in course of free expression.

Yup, BD. Mormon political correctness running amok. Yup. Politics of the aggrieved; victim-rights mentality where minorities of any persuasion (in this case, a religious minority attempting to control free expression. (We first got used to it here @ FR; and then, when most of the FR Mormons were zotted for legit reasons -- and a few went on "vacation" -- we just haven't been subjected to it by FR Mormons of late)

[Colofornian]

To get to the crux of the matter; Does the LDS "baptize" persons now dead "by proxy", or not? That equals baptizing the dead, as regarding dead bodies themselves, yet in absentia, not being done just "verbally", but by necessity of the doctrinal practice itself, needing "a body" to submerse, would it not? Which in LDS theology and practice (though I will not admit to in efficaciousness, before God) makes the proxy, representative of the necro- as matter of fact.

Yup. Home run. Grand slam.

(Who knows, BD? For all we know, StormPrepper may yet next complain about your use of the word "crux" -- which, etymologically, comes from crucifix. Mormons, ya know, tend to prefer the Garden of Gethsemane to Calvary as their description of Christ's atoning process...so perhaps, BD, you should have used some garden term instead so as to not offend SP...like to get to the "root" of the matter)