19th century occultic Mormon phenomena: Paranormal intermingling, demonic possession [Vanity]

Colofornian | Oct. 31, 2013 | Colofornian

[Colofornian]

Latayne Colvett Scott wrote about her experiences in being "proxy baptized" on behalf of the dead when she was a Mormon teen. And even though the process is quite mechanical, activity at Mormon temples can range greatly from the mechanical to the mystical, where, Scott wrote:

"This sort of mechanical processing of proxies goes on daily in the...temples around the world. Literally millions of dead persons have had proxy baptisms done for them in this assembly-line fashion...the righteous dead can intermingle with and teach those who have not received the Gospel in mortal life." (Latayne Colvett Scott, The Mormon Mirage: A Former Mormon Tells Why She Left the Church, Zondervan, 1979, pp. 194-195)

Hence, the Mormon has encouraged spirit visitations and spirit manifestations from the dead -- being on record with over 50 years of encouraging such "communications" from 19th Lds "apostles" like Parley P. Pratt and Charles W. Penrose.

Indeed, the history of the Mormon church within the 19th century is replete with occultic darkness [Documentation is sourced in chart at end of this article]:

• Demonic manifestations and signs of demonic possessions, 1831-1837
• "The man of sin" revealed coincidentally as the very first time the Mormon priesthood is conferred (June 3, 1831)
• During -- and following -- the dedication of the very first Mormon temple at Kirtland, Ohio (March 27, 1836), Joseph Smith wrote about "many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained: men ran out of doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into..." It was a temple the Mormons lost when they moved from the community.
• Joseph Smith chooses macabre settings -- funeral sermons -- to unveil two controversial NEW Mormon doctrine (one, 10+ years into their existence; the other 14 years). The first was Necro-baptism, when people are heightened emotionally in grieving their dead; and then the provocative teaching that men can become gods, and that the Mormon god was once a man who got the "god job"
• An Lds "apostle" (Boyd Packer) concedes in an 1980 book that over a 2.5 year point late in Joseph Smith's life, Smith became obsessed with the dead
• In April 1842, two years before Smith's dead in a shootout, Smith writes an editorial that mentions the "false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints"
• The Mormon church concedes -- in an Oct. 30, 2011 article published by the Mormon church (the Lds church owns Deseret News) -- that Lds "apostle" Parley P. Pratt...ancestor to Mitt Romney..."had a substantial influence on early Mormon doctrine. In certain instances, Pratt may have taken doctrines taught by the Prophet and proceeded to teach or expand upon them. In other instances, Pratt may have shared his thoughts with Joseph, “who later embraced them and confirmed them.” One example relates to the doctrine of theosis that teaches men and women can become like God. Joseph taught this principle in his famous King Follett Sermon, and yet “you find that in Parley’s writings several years before you find it in Joseph’s writings.” The Deseret News says Pratt "enjoyed Smith’s intimate association at a number of periods in his life, including their initial confinement together in Missouri.” 5 questions answered about Parley P. Pratt
• Hence, Parley P. Pratt would be an excellent authority to comment upon Smith during the 23rd anniversary of the Mormon church and its temple, which he said was to be used "...AS A MEDIUM THROUGH WHICH THE LIVING CAN HEAR FROM THE DEAD. Shall we, then, deny the principle, the philosophy, the fact of communication between worlds? No! verily no! The spiritual philosophy of the present age was introduced to the modern world by Joseph Smith. The people of the United States abandoned him to martyrdom...simply because a medium of communication with the invisible world had been found, whereby the living could hear from the dead. ...an obscure boy and his few associates, in the western wilds of New York, commenced to hold CONVERSE WITH THE DEAD...ONE OF THE LEADING OR FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS OF "MORMON" PHILOSOPHY, viz. - "That the living may hear from the dead."... ...we...call attention to the means of discriminating or judging between the lawful and the unlawful mediums or channels of communication...the holy Prophet...remind us that a people should seek unto their God for the living to hear from the dead! ...the Lord...has committed to this Priesthood the keys of holy and divine revelation, and of CORRESPONDENCE, OR COMMUICATION BETWEEN angels, SPIRITS, AND MEN... ...all the most holy CONVERSATIONS AND CORRESPONDENCE WITH God, angels, and SPIRITS, shall be had only in the sanctuary of His holy Temple... Ye are assembled...and have laid these Corner Stones, for the express purpose that the living might hear from the dead, and that we may prepare a holy sanctuary, where "the people may seek unto their God, for the living to hear from the dead"...
• Smith's closest cohort in the initial jumpstarting of Mormonism was Sidney Rigdon, who left the Mormon church. Decades later, Rigdon was regularly channeling the dead!
• The Mormon "prophet" who helped the church do its u-turn on earthly polygamy claimed that in the last two weeks before he left the St. George, Utah Mormon temple, that the spirits of the signers of the Declaration of Independence -- with George Washington -- allegedly appeared to Woodruff. Were these indeed ghosts of the signers? Could they have been demons in disguise as ghosts?
• Ghostly newspaper delivery "boys" delivered a UK newspaper to a Mormon leader in 1884 before it could have possibly been even hand-delivered
• In 1887, Woodruff again was revisiting how "The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George. They called upon us..."
• An Lds "apostle" -- Charles Penrose -- writes in 1888: "Knowledge that is needful concerning the spiritual sphere will come through an appointed channel and in the appointed place. The temple where the ordinances can be administered for the dead, is the place to hear from the dead. The priesthood in the flesh, when it is necessary, will receive communications from the Priesthood behind the vail."
• During the opening of the Salt Lake City Mormon temple (Spring, 1893), An official Mormon church publication claims that when the LDS opened their temple in the Spring of 1893, an official Mormon church publication claims that "Some Latter-day Saints saw...past Presidents of the Church and other deceased Church leaders."
• A Mormon's journal entry for a particular day in April, 1893 claims to have been visited by his deceased brother.
• In 1895, a polygamous wife of both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young talked
• "the affinity between the dead and us."

"A Christian in looking at this doctrine that a person can accept Christ after death will want to know how Mormons explain the story of the rich man and Lazarus as found in Luke 16:19-26. The late President Joseph Fielding Smith, in his book, Way to Perfection, explained around the great truth of the Bible's teachings on repenting after death by saying that the 'great gulf' was only fixed before the death of Christ. After the Savior's resurrection, it no longer existed. Thus the righteous dead can intermingle with and teach those who have not received the Gospel in mortal life." (Source: Latayne Colvett Scott, The Mormon Mirage: A Former Mormon Tells Why She Left the Church, Zondervan, 1979, p. 195)

On the previous page, Scott wrote about her experiences in the Mormon temple as a Mormon teen:

"When my name was called, I went down into the water. The baptizing elder turned me around so that he could see a large screen, something like an electric football scoreboard, which he looked at over my shoulder. On top of the screen was my name, and below it a name I don't remember, but which I'll say was Elizabeth Anderson. 'Sister Celeste Latayne Colvett,' he said, looking at the screen, 'having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you, for and in behalf of Elizabeth Anderson, who is dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.' Then he quickly dropped his right arm from the square and lowered me beneath the water. As I was regaining my footing (you learn after the third or fourth time to put one foot slightly behind the other to help you get back out of the water) he had already begun the same prayer, inserting this time the name of another dead woman which had flashed onto the screen behind me. Fifteen consecutive baptisms were performed with me as proxy in a matter of about three minutes. As I left the font, another proxy was preparing to be baptized. Then I was led into a 'confirmation room' where a man sat on a high stool with a chair near his knees. I sat on the chair, my back to him, and he and several other elders placed heir hands heavily upon my head while he pronounced this prayer: 'Sister Celeste Latayne Colvett, in the name of Jesus Christ, we lay our hands upon your head for and in behalf of Elizabeth Anderson, who is dead, and confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..." (The Mormon Mirage, p. 194)

What is of interest in the "confirmation room" process Scott wrote about is that many Mormons have said that this proxy Baptism process offers a "choice" in which spirits on the other can reject becoming Mormons. Yet, an "automatic" confirmation process has been part and parcel of the proxy baptisms--indeed Lds leaders "confirm" dead souls as "members of the church."

A blogger who ministers to Mormons, Sharon Lindbloom, has noted: "Unlike Christianity, which recognizes a biblical prohibition against contact with the dead (e.g., Deuteronomy 18:9-14), Mormonism embraces it." Mormonism and Visitations from the Dead

The Bible forbids such communication with the dead -- otherwise known as necromancy.

Do Mormon leaders still encourage occultic temple communications?

Judge for yourself:

DATE	Occultic Communication Encouraged	SOURCE
Open House start date April 3, 1993 San Diego, CA Temple	Visitations by the dead: Prior to the dedication of the San Diego temple, local Mormon families were given a packet entitled Family Temple Preparation Material. Included in this written material were about seven pages devoted to "true stories" of temple patrons who were visited by the dead	They See Dead People?
Aug. 12, 1949 -- republished by Mormon church in its Deseret Book Co. publishing, 1972	"I haven't actually seen any of them, but sometimes when I have finished an endowment or a sealing session in the Salt Lake Temple my bosom has burned, and I have known keep within me that those persons for whom I have officiated have accepted that work."	Bountiful Second Ward Chapel, "Disembodied Spirit Life" section of Life Eternal: A Series of Four Lectures Lynn A. McKinlay, Deseret Book Co. 1972, p. 206
1980	Lds "apostle" Boyd K. Packer: "On many occasions I have been present -- when sealings were to be performed, when temple ordinance work was being done, when funeral sermons were being preached --in circumstances when the veil was very thin. The gratitude of those who have gone beyond found its way through the misty barrier and was communicated as spiritual things are communicated."	The Holy Temple, Bookcraft, 1980, p. 267
2009	Even Mormon Sunday School material highlights spirit paranormal manifestations	Lds.org Sunday School Chapter Detail: Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher's Manual: See p. 2
Fall 2006 (and assumed other years' courses as well)		Religious Education class at BYU -- C261: Intro to Lds Family History (Genealogy): See 'Manifestations of the Spirits' section, pp. 57-58
1996	An official Mormon church publication -- even placed wholly as a digital publication for years -- highlighted such occultic communication allegedly occurring in 1884 and 1893 ... see chart below	Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 1996 pp. 99, 102
1983	An official Mormon church priesthood manual was encouraging such paranormal communication in citing an 1884 manifestation	Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin Joseph Ballard, Deseret Book Co. p. 249, as cited in Come Follow Me, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 162, 1983

Documentation of Occultic Mormon 19th-Century History

YEAR	JOSEPH SMITH or LDS Leader 'Revelation' or Mingling with the Dead Episode	SOURCE
1830s
1831	”The records of early Mormonism are replete with accounts of activity from the spirit world. According to John Whitmer, who was the official Church Historian in Joseph Smith's time, some converts to the new religion would 'act like an Indian in the act of scalping,' or would 'slide or scoot on the floor with the rapidity of a serpent....' During the ordination ceremony of Harvey Whitlock as a high priest in 1831, he was seen to have 'turned as black as Lyman was white,' his fingers 'were set like claws,' and, unable to speak, he went about the room with eyes 'as the shape of oval Os....' On another occasion, one man, who weighed over 200 pounds, was thrown through the air by an unseen force, and another 'began screaming like a panther....'	46. John Whitmer, John Whitmer's History (Salt Lake City, Utah: Modern Microfilm Company, n.d.), Chapter Six and 47. Max H. Parkin, Conflict at Kirtland: A Study of the Nature and Causes of External and Internal Conflict of the Mormons in Ohio Between 1830 and 1838 (Salt Lake City: Max Parkin, 1966), pages 79-80 – both as cited in GOD-MEN AND SPIRITUAL VEGETABLES:The Occult Worldview of Mormonism
1831 [Source is much later from Whitmer is describing 1831 manifestations]	”John Whitmer wrote: 'Some had visions and could not tell what they saw, some would fancy to themselves that they had the sword of Laban, and would wield it as expert as a light dragoon; some would act like an Indian in the act of scalping; some would slide or scoot on the floor with the rapidity of a serpent, which they termed sailing in the boat to the Lamanites, preaching the gospel. And many other vain and foolish maneuvers that are unseeming and unprofitable to mention. Thus the devil blinded the eyes of some good and honest disciples. I write these things to show how ignorant and undiscerning children are, and how easy mankind is led astray, notwithstanding the things of God that are written concerning his kingdom.'	“Church History,” Journal of History, Jan. 1908, p. 55 – as quoted by a href=”http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3085089/posts”>D&C Student Manual
June 3, 1831	The Mormon priesthood being conferred corresponds EXACTLY with the manifest revelation of “the man of sin”: “...the Elders from the various parts of the country where they were laboring, came in; and the conference before appointed, convened in Kirtland; the Lord displayed His power to the most perfect satisfaction of the Saints. The man of sin was revealed, and the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood was manifested and conferred for the first time upon several of the elders.”	History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 175-176
Aug. 12, 1831	Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, on the bank of the Missouri River, McIlwaine’s Bend, August 12, 1831. On their return trip to Kirtland, the Prophet and ten elders had traveled down the Missouri River in canoes. On the third day of the journey, many dangers were experienced. Elder William W. Phelps, in a daylight vision, saw the destroyer riding in power upon the face of the waters.	Lead-in intro to Lds 'scripture' D&C 61
March 27, 1836 and continuing into next year	Joseph Smith observed: “Soon after the Gospel was established in Kirtland, and during the absence of the authorities of the Church, many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained: men ran out of doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into, calculated to bring disgrace upon the Church of God..."	Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons 1 April 1842, p. 747, cited at D&C Student Manual
July 30, 1837	Eventual first president Heber C. Kimball, who would become second counselor to Brigham Young, demon possessed and other Lds missionaries attacked by demons in Preston, UK	Discovering LDS Preston – Satanic attack
1840s
Aug. 10, 1840	Joseph Smith uses macabre setting – a funeral sermon – to first introduce the doctrine of necro-baptism	”I first mentioned the doctrine in public when preaching the funeral sermon of Brother Seymour...”	BYU Family History Lab
January 1841-->Summer 1843	Joseph Smith becomes obsessed with the dead: "The Prophet Joseph Smith...had received the revelations (sections 124, 127, 128, and 132) which pertain directly to this work.” [Re: the dead] “And during the last part of his life he said, 'This subject was upon my mind more than any other.'"	Lds “apostle” Boyd K. Packer, The Holy Temple, p. 191 1980 Bookcraft
April 1842	”...who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints?”	Joseph Smith, The Prophet's Editorial in the Times and Seaons, as found in History of the Church, Vol. 4, p. 573
April 7, 1844	It's less than three months before Joseph Smith's death. And, like he did with a Baptism of the Dead doctrinal unveiling, Smith chooses yet another funeral sermon to unveil one of the most controversial Mormon doctrines: That men can become gods (and that God was once a man).	The King Follett [funeral] sermon
1850s
April 6, 1853	”How do the Saints expect the necessary information by which to complete the ministrations for the salvation and exaltation of their friends who have died? By one holding the keys of the oracles of God, AS A MEDIUM THROUGH WHICH THE LIVING CAN HEAR FROM THE DEAD. Shall we, then, deny the principle, the philosophy, the fact of communication between worlds? No! verily no! The spiritual philosophy of the present age was introduced to the modern world by Joseph Smith. The people of the United States abandoned him to martyrdom...simply because a medium of communication with the invisible world had been found, whereby the living could hear from the dead. ...an obscure boy and his few associates, in the western wilds of New York, commenced to hold CONVERSE WITH THE DEAD...ONE OF THE LEADING OR FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS OF "MORMON" PHILOSOPHY, viz. - "That the living may hear from the dead."... ...we...call attention to the means of discriminating or judging between the lawful and the unlawful mediums or channels of communication...the holy Prophet...remind us that a people should seek unto their God for the living to hear from the dead! ...the Lord...has committed to this Priesthood the keys of holy and divine revelation, and of CORRESPONDENCE, OR COMMUICATION BETWEEN angels, SPIRITS, AND MEN... ...all the most holy CONVERSATIONS AND CORRESPONDENCE WITH God, angels, and SPIRITS, shall be had only in the sanctuary of His holy Temple... Ye are assembled...and have laid these Corner Stones, for the express purpose that the living might hear from the dead, and that we may prepare a holy sanctuary, where "the people may seek unto their God, for the living to hear from the dead"...	Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, pp. 44-46
1860s
1868	Re: former early cohort of Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon (who left Smith's group): ”Sidney Rigdon was Prophet, Seer and Revelator for a small group of Mormons in New York. In his capacity as prophet, Rigdon regularly received revelations, often directed at specific followers. His revelations include channeling of the dead. He recorded these revelations and sent them to his follower Stephen Post. The resulting compilation of revelations (in Rigdon’s handwriting) are available today in the Stephen Post Collection at the University of Utah, where they are stored as Copying Book A & Book of the Revelations of Jesus Christ to the Children of Zion Through Sidney Rigdon Prophet & Seer & Revelator. Essentially this scripture can be viewed as The Doctrine and Covenants Part II.”	Sidney Rigdon: Channeling The Dead
1870s
Early 1877	In the last two weeks before he left the St. George, Utah temple, we have at least four accounts that claim that the spirits of the signers of the Declaration of Independence -- with George Washington -- having appeared to Woodruff. Is the temple haunted? Were these indeed ghosts of the signers? Could they have been demons in disguise as ghosts?	Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]
1880s
Oct. 10, 1880	Fourth Lds "prophet" Wilford Woodruff reveals that during the late 1840s or sometime during the 1850s he: "I have had many interviews with Brother Joseph until the last 15 or 20 years of my life; I have not seen him for that length of time." One of the top three-ranked Mormon leaders, Lds "apostle"/First President Heber C. Kimball also claimed: "Joseph Smith continued visiting myself and others up to a certain time, and then it stopped."	Journal of Discourses 21, pp. 317-318; source for Kimball's quote: Deseret Weekly News, 53:112, Temples of the Most High, 1896, p. 345
May, 1884	The Haunting of Bishop Ballard's Neighborhood by Elderly Newspaper Delivery Boys Ghostly newspaper delivery "boys": "In May 1884, Bishop Henry Ballard of the Logan Second Ward was signing temple recommends at his home. Henry's nine-year-old daughter, who was talking with friends on the sidewalk near her home, saw two elderly men approaching. They called to her, handed her a newspaper, and told her to take it to her father. The girl did as she was asked. Bishop Ballard saw that the paper, the Newbury Weekly News, published in England, contained the names of more than 60 of his and his father's acquaintances, along with genealogical information. This newspaper, dated 15 May 1884, had been given to him only three days after it was printed. In a time long before air transportation, when mail took several weeks to get from England to western America, this was a miracle. The next day, Bishop Ballard took the newspaper to the temple and told the story of its arrival to Marriner W. Merrill, the temple president. President Merrill declared, 'Brother Ballard, someone on the other side is anxious for their work to be done and they knew that you would do it if this paper got into your hands.'" (Our Heritage: A Brief History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1996, p. 99) Ballard was then quoted by Bryant S. Hinckley in Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin Joseph Ballard, Deseret Book Co, p. 249, as saying: "Elder Melvin J. Ballard testified that 'the spirit and influence of your dead will guide those who are interested in finding those records." (As cited in Come Follow Me, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal study guide, 1983)	Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 1996 p. 99; Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin Joseph Ballard, Deseret Book Co. p. 249, as cited in Come Follow Me, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 162, 1983
Sept. 16, 1887	Fourth Mormon Prophet Wilford Woodruff tells followers, ”I feel to say little else to the Latter-day Saints wherever and whenever I have the opportunity of speaking to them, than to call upon them to build these Temples now under way, to hurry them up to completion. The dead will be after you, they will seek after you as they have after us in St. George. They called upon us, knowing that we held the keys and power to redeem them. I will here say, before closing, that two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them.”	Journal of Discourses 19:229
1888	Lds “apostle” Charles W. Penrose: "Knowledge that is needful concerning the spiritual sphere will come through an appointed channel and in the appointed place. The temple where the ordinances can be administered for the dead, is the place to hear from the dead. The priesthood in the flesh, when it is necessary, will receive communications from the Priesthood behind the vail." Later (1906) quote from Penrose: "...the Priesthood behind the veil will reveal to the Priesthood in the flesh in the holy Temples of God where these conversations will take place...work...not only going on here in the flesh, but it is going on in the world behind the veil among the spirits that have departed."	Quote 1: Lds "apostle" Charles W. Penrose, Mormon Doctrine, 1888, published through the Juvenile Instructor's office, SLC, pp. 40-41; Quote 2: Conference Reports, April 1906, pp. 86-87 See: We Believe: Doctrines and Principles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by Rulon T. Burton p D-129: 'Work for the Dead'; cf. The Facts on the Mormon Church by John Ankerberg, John Weldon, & Dillon Burroughs 1991/2009 Harvest House Publishers, p. 70
1890s
April 1, 1893	From a Mormon church LDS Sunday School Lesson: Suggestions for Lesson Development Attention Activity: As appropriate, share the following story or use an activity of your own to begin the lesson. Frederick William Hurst was working as a gold miner in Australia when he first heard Latter-day Saint missionaries preach the restored gospel. He and his brother Charles were baptized in January 1854. He LDS.org - Sunday School Chapter Detail - “The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Thei... Page 1 of 6 http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=ce109207f7c2011... 12/4/2009 tried to help his other family members become converted, but they rejected him and the truths he taught. Fred settled in Salt Lake City four years after joining the Church, and he served faithfully as a missionary in several different countries. He also worked as a painter in the Salt Lake Temple. In one of his final journal entries, he wrote: “Along about the 1st of March, 1893, I found myself alone in the dining room, all had gone to bed. I was sitting at the table when to my great surprize my elder brother Alfred walked in and sat down opposite me at the table and smiled. I said to him (he looked so natural): ‘When did you arrive in Utah?’ “He said: ‘I have just come from the Spirit World, this is not my body that you see, it is lying in the tomb… I look to you to do the work for me in the temple. … You are watched closely.”	Diary of Frederick William Hurst, comp. Samuel H. and Ida Hurst [1961], 204 as part of.Lds Sunday School lesson from "Doctrine and Covenants and Church History," "The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers," pp. 1-2
April-->May, 1893	The Haunting of the Salt Lake City Temple opening: An official Mormon church publication claims that when the LDS opened their temple in the Spring of 1893, "Some Latter-day Saints saw...past Presidents of the Church and other deceased Church leaders."	Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 1996 p. 102, referencing Richard Neitzel Holzapfel, Every Stone a Sermon, 1992, pp. 71, 75, 80.
Jan. 1, 15, 1895	”Think of the affinity between the dead and us. They are looking to us for deliverance. Shall we not help them?”	Zina D.H. Young, Woman's Exponent, Jan 1, 15, 1895, p. 226 Note: Young was a polygamous wife of BOTH Joseph Smith & by

[Colofornian]

5. David...

[See my last post...last part of my answer applies there as well]

6. Jesus Himself met evil spirits face to face many times and so did the original Apostles. Were they necromancers and occultists too?

#1...Jesus NEVER had to consult with anybody other than His Father/Holy Spirit...So no "necromancy" there...

#2...You may have it in your peculiar worldview that demonic-type 'angels' living forever with the Mormon god -- as Joseph Smith believed...were resurrected men..
...see The Doctrine and Covenants [132:17: Non-abiding 'angels' remain with Mormon god, said Smith]; ...
...but the Biblical worldview is that demonic spirits were never men & hence never died as men.

[Colofornian]

4. When Eldad and Medad (Numbers 11)had a spirit rest on them and they prophesied.. we're they in a haunted place filled with ghosts and demons? Was it a demon that landed on them???

You're on extremely dangerous spiritual ground here, Storm.

Numbers 11, v. 26 specifically says it was "THE" Spirit (not just "a" spirit).

In the chapter before Jesus talks about those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit (Luke 12:10), he talks about casting out demons "by the finger of God" (Luke 11:20), which MANY Bible commentators reference that "finger" as the Holy Spirit Himself: 20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." (Jesus, Luke 11:20)

If we go to Mark 3, where Jesus is referenced also talking about blaspheming the Holy Spirit (3:28-29), the context also shows a heavy focus on casting out demons in that chapter ... see Mark 3:11, 22-23 -- even to the point where Jesus defends the Holy Spirit by asking a rhetorical question in v. 23: "How can Satan cast out Satan?"

IoW, the context is all clear: Jesus was casting out demons. The Pharisees were accusing Him of casting out spirits by Satan's power. Jesus, then in Mark 3:28 (also Luke 12) essentially says,
"Hey, if you say anything against Me -- you can be forgiven"...
..."but if you're going to accuse or insinuate" (even to make some attempted apologetic point) "that the Holy Spirit was operating as Satan or satanic hosts...
...duck! Look out! Forgiveness will NEVER be yours!"

I'm not saying you believe this; but you are so wrecklessly tossing around the Holy Spirit's Name in conjunction with demonic activity, that a warning here is quite proper: It was so serious of a sin that Jesus told them flat-out "no forgiveness forthcoming" for even suggesting such ties/links.

I warn you: In God's Name, stop being so cavalier with your weak apologetics' efforts that you wind up so readily bandying out the Name of the Holy Spirit!

[Colofornian]

#3 example of Abraham...also covered in post #20.

[StormPrepper]

So you're suddenly hypersensitive about a word that just means "the dead?" What? Lds never use the word, "dead?"

So I'm "hypersensitive" when I call you out for an out right lie?

"just means "the dead?"

And here's another ugly lie. Necro is known through out literature as "evil" or "evil sorcerer". It's short for "Necromancer" or "Necromancy". It's a dark art. Equating myself and other Latter-day Saints with anything "necro" is guilt by association. It's a foul and low thing to do Colofornian.

Well, it helps if you don't wrest my commentary away from the content..

You're the one who used the word "obsessed" along with other hyperbolic phrases. Kind of like your use of the offensive word "necro" to describe me.

I guess you know you're over the top or you wouldn't be so "hypersensitive" about be called out for it.

So the supreme attention-getter of ANY subject of Joseph's last 2 or 3 years

So you consider any length of study to be "obsessed" with something? Obsession is considered an unhealthy mental state. Do doctors study medicine or are they obsessed with it? Is anyone that spends their life seeking after God, obsessed? Again you're using innuendo and lies to paint a fearful picture of me to the reader.

Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ command all men to love one another and not bear false witness against each other.

[StormPrepper]

but you are so wrecklessly[sic] tossing

I'm so reckless. *chuckle* I'm also a crazy extremist Tea Party member and a serious prepper too.

You're on extremely dangerous spiritual ground here, Storm.

It's my reckless side. I'm known for it. Ask anyone.

I'm not saying you believe this...

but...

but you are so wrecklessly[sic]..."

but we're going to assume that you do... (because I'm so reckless)

I warn you: In God's Name,...

Moses is that you!!??

being so cavalier with your weak apologetics'

I'm reckless...but weakly so. I guess I should work out more. Maybe lift more weights and my apologetics wouldn't be so weak. But if my recklessness is so weak, how much trouble can I really cause?

The post I'm quoting from was so comical, there was no way I could take it seriously.

"but if you're going to accuse or insinuate" (even to make some attempted apologetic point) "that the Holy Spirit was operating as Satan or satanic hosts... ...duck! Look out! Forgiveness will NEVER be yours!"

BTW this doctrine that Colofornian is espousing here is just asinine. Even insinuating this will get you sent straight to hell...no forgiveness for joo!



yea...whatever.

Everyone back up! I'm going to recklessly press this post button!!

BOOM!

[BlueDragon]

As was said regarding usage of the prefix necro-

"just means "the dead?"

to which you replied;

And here's another ugly lie.

Please allow me to disabuse you of that notion...for you reach for portion of culturally connotative usage (and misuage), rather than the root.

necro-

combining form prefix: necro-

1. relating to a corpse or death.
"necromancy"

Origin

Greek

nekros ------>necro-
corpse

Your statement continued;

...Necro is known through out literature as "evil" or "evil sorcerer"

which as I have shown above isn't exactly true, but as I also spoke toward, is the culturally derived connotative association, although one perhaps a bit misused by fantasy-genre "hack" paper-back writers, at least a decade or so before Harry Potter came toddling along.

Necro- as in Necromancer http://www.thefreedictionary.com/necromancer

nec·ro·man·cy
1.
The practice of supposedly communicating with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future.
2. Black magic; sorcery.
3. Magic qualities.

As you said;

We do not baptize corpses, this is a lie.

but the LDS does "baptize" the _dead, by proxy. Hence, necro-baptism [by proxy].

And you also said;

Kind of like your use of the offensive word "necro" to describe me.

which was not done that I could see (or you may point out which reply# that statement was made, in regards to yourself specifically?), rendering the following;

command...to...not bear false witness against each other.

apparently broken, by your own self.

What was that again, you were saying about soup?

If you like, we could speak about Joseph Smith's "obsessions" and how he could fit the bill for heel, cad, fraud, huckster, swindler, etc? I can bring dictionary of those terms, upon request. Preferably, after we find some agreement upon earned and deserved (after one has done all that they honestly can do?) soup rations. bwahahhaa

Sammy Hagar - Little White Lie (Music Video) WIDESCREEN HQ [this song going out to J.Smith, who's "soup" could never now be cold, since it's most likely ON FIRE]

[Alamo-Girl]

For your discussion, here's a link to information on necro from my favorite Etymology website.

[Religion Moderator]

Do not accuse another Freeper of telling a lie, it attributes motive, the intent to deceive. It is a form of "making it personal."

Words such as "wrong" "false" "error" do not attribute motive.

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[BlueDragon]

Aah, very good. Thank you. Interesting how the sounds across many languages share some similarity, isn't it?

[Alamo-Girl]

Yes indeed! Etymology is very interesting to me.

I'm glad you found the link helpful.

[BlueDragon]

One thing I didn't at all understand in the notes at the link you provided (until I kooked up the explanation of abbreviations, lol) was the meaning for the abbreviation PIE.

Interestingly enough, in regards to this particular root "necro" and variants, in reading the other notes on that page, I thought I was seeing a Indo-Persian-European sort of spread of usage, which made me wonder as to Egyptian, also.

Woops, I said that magic word. Now the can is opened, and I hope reformed Egyptian worms don't come crawling out.

Have you ever tried to read BYU scholarship which pretends itself to in some way establish that the funeral scrolls bought by J.Smith, can translate into what J.S. claimed, that he alone at the time could understand? (the book of Abraham is tied to an Egyptian funeral scroll)

People around here may think I jibber-jabber without getting to the point. Those guys can go on for days without getting anywhere. Or present stuff by way of what seems to me to be sleight-of-hand that fools chiefly themselves. MEGO to the max.

It's rather hilarious that just a few years after Smith bought and allegedly "translated" that scroll, a decade or so, maybe two, the Rosetta Stone was decoded enough for those who work in those language fields, to begin unraveling a few remaining mysteries.

Since there is enough scholarship concerning those sort of scrolls (there are many of them, from over a span of centuries), and the meanings have been fairly well determined (the scrolls repeat the same themes --- with the rise and fall of Egyptian kings documented amongst the various collections of scrolls by reference, and what god or goddess they were associated with have their fortunes as it were, also rise and fall (or change), then the Smith "translation" should be the coffin nail, if there were not enough already...for the scrolls are many (and more repetitive than not, which is the most telling aspect) and are many "nails" as it were.

One dead and gone mistaken "god" vision-religion, coming out of the tombs like a mummy's curse breathing [from the link which you provided];

"death, natural death" (cf. Sanskrit nasyati "disappears, perishes," Avestan nasyeiti "disappears," nasu- "corpse," Old Persian vi-nathayatiy "he injures;

upon Joey's accumulation of fraud.

It's like -- majic, the kind the Pharaoh's magicians knew the tricks of. The ones which brought death.

Things are pretty grim when even the mummies cackle at ya'.

[Colofornian]

Me: "just means "the dead?"

Mistaken you: And here's another ugly lie. Necro is known through out literature as "evil" or "evil sorcerer". It's short for "Necromancer" or "Necromancy". It's a dark art. Equating myself and other Latter-day Saints with anything "necro" is guilt by association. It's a foul and low thing to do Colofornian.

Blue Dragon had it on the $ in post #26...take a good look at that...if you don't believe here...here's some links on the word Necrology:

Definition:
* 1. A list of people who have died, especially in the recent past or during a specific period.
Source: Necrology

"2013 Necrology. What is a necrology? A necrology is a listing of people who have died during a specific time period. Find A Grave necrologies let you browse the names and faces of the 75 most famous people who have died during a selected year, all the way back to 1900. They are listed in order of their Find A Grave 'fame ranking', as voted by Find A Grave contributors. To view a necrology, simply select a year from the pop up list below."
Source: Necrology per Find a Grave.com

Hmmm...Here Mormons do their own massive "gravedigging" -- well, by that I mean "digging into grave" history...
...in order to glean, names, birthdates, deathdates, etc. to necro-baptize them amidst their gathering of necrology research...
...And here, like this necrological link to "famous people," you'll find in research Mormon baptisms of the dead that they seem to love to feast upon "famous people" in the proxy process, even though their relatives are not likely to be Mormon...
>..and yet you want me to ignore all of that necrological stuff they engage in. Interesting.

[StormPrepper]

Trying to defend Colofornian's offensiveness by arguing semantics to justify it? ... Really?

Again it's the logical fallacy of guilt by association. It's logically insulting as well as morally corrupt to engage in the practice.

You argue from a single weak point while ignoring the mountain of evidence to the contrary. Your point is convoluted as well. You dig down into the Greek and use part of a single definition and claim victory.

This is cafeteria logic at it's worst. Even the definition you chose uses the word corpse. Simply being baptized in the name of someone that is deceased has no commonality with the dark art of manipulating corpses.

Not to mention the shear silliness of trying to convince us all that the poster in question had no ill intent. Their intent was completely innocuous when ascribing the term necro to Latter-day Saints like me?

[Bluedragon]which as I have shown above isn't exactly true, but as I also spoke toward, is the culturally derived connotative association, although one perhaps a bit misused by fantasy-genre "hack" paper-back writers, at least a decade or so before Harry Potter came toddling along.

The real world definition is well known in literature long before your paperbacks came into existence. And now in film. Just like I said.

The world knows what "necro" means so don't try to spin it.

Necromancy(1972)

Fiction
The final chapter of The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien mentions the White Council driving the Necromancer, a guise of Sauron, from Dol Guldur, his stronghold in Mirkwood.

Anita Blake, main character of the Vampire Hunter series by Laurell K. Hamilton, is a necromancer, and there are numerous other mentions of necromancy.

The Old Kingdom series by Garth Nix is a cycle of novels centered around the practice of necromancy and its influence on the world of the living.

Being ineffective as a means of "reuniting body and soul once death has occurred", necromancy in the Harry Potter series by J. K. Rowling is generally disparaged as "a branch of magic that has never worked." However, practitioners of the Dark Arts contrive to produce "vile substitutions" such as the reanimated corpses known as Inferi.

In the Japanese manga series Shaman King by Hiroyuki Takei, the character Johann Faust VIII is a self-taught necromancer who takes part in the Shaman Fight in order to gain the ability to bring his wife back from the dead.

A necromancer named Doll is featured amongst the core characters of ½ Prince, a series of Taiwanese novels by Yu Wo, later adapted into manhua format by Choi Hong Chong.

Nico di Angelo, a demigod character appearing in the Percy Jackson & the Olympians and The Heroes of Olympus series by Rick Riordan, wields various necromantic powers owing to his paternity by Hades, Greek god of the underworld.

Necromancy is prominent in the Skulduggery Pleasant series by Derek Landy.

Chloe Saunders, main character of the Darkest Powers trilogy by Kelley Armstrong, is a necromancer.

Kore wa Zombie Desu ka?, a series of Japanese light novels by Shinichi Kimura (which has also been adapted into manga and anime formats), features as its protagonist a zombie who was raised from the dead and befriended by a powerful necromancer.

Appearing in a series of short stories and novels by Jonathan L. Howard, the character Johannes Cabal is "a necromancer of some little infamy" who sold his soul in order to gain the ability to commune with and raise the dead.

The fourth installment of The Secrets of the Immortal Nicholas Flamel by Michael Scott is entitled The Necromancer. The series, however, employs this term in a broader sense as one of several that refer to characters who are practitioners of magic, though with a darker connotation than the others.



And who can forget: The Necromicon



Film and television
In the Cartoon Network animated series The Venture Bros., Dr. Byron Orpheus is referred to as a "necromancer extraordinaire", although he has been shown to command a broad range of mystical powers. He belongs to the Order of the Triad, a team of occult practitioners, and regularly collaborates with Team Venture.

In the fifth season episode "Just Rewards" of the WB series Angel, vampires Angel and Spike try to put a rogue necromancer named Magnus Hainsley out of commission. Their task is made much harder by the fact that they are both undead and therefore susceptible to Hainsley's power.

In the second season episode "Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things" of the CW series Supernatural, Sam and Dean Winchester are forced to intervene when the teaching assistant to a professor of Ancient Greek uses a necromantic ritual to bring the professor's daughter back to life after she dies in a car accident.

Necromantic rituals conducted by the former occupant of a house are largely to blame for the supernatural forces that plague its current owners in the 2009 horror film The Haunting in Connecticut.

In the fourth season of the HBO series True Blood, antagonist Marnie Stonebrook employs necromancy to cause herself to become possessed by the spirit of Antonia Gavilán de Logroño, a witch who was burned at the stake during the Spanish Inquisition. As she was dying, Antonia used her power to gain control over all nearby vampires and subsequently caused them to walk into the sunlight, killing themselves. Marnie desires the same ability to manipulate vampires like puppets.

In the fourth season episode "Lancelot du Lac" of the BBC series Merlin, Morgana uses necromancy to bring the knight Lancelot back from the dead in order to interfere with the pending marriage of King Arthur and Guinevere, thereby preventing Guinevere from becoming queen. Morgana herself wants to be the sole ruler of Camelot.

In the third season of the FX series American Horror Story: Coven, Misty Day (Lily Rabe) portrays a necromancer. Being persecuted after being discovered by bringing a bird back to life.

Games
In Dungeons & Dragons, wizards can specialize in the school of necromancy and clerics can select death as their sphere or domain. Both accordingly gain access to spells that not only focus on death, decay, and the undead, but also various forms of life force manipulation, enabling them to heal or cause injury, cure or inflict disease, and perform resurrection.

Necromancers are a specific type of magic user in the Palladium Fantasy and Rifts role-playing games from Palladium Books. They wield a number of powers over death and the dead such as acquiring supernatural abilities by ingesting certain organs harvested from corpses and being able to merge severed limbs with their own bodies.

The necromancer is a character class in the video game Diablo II, released by Blizzard Entertainment. They can animate the dead, inflict curses, and use life-draining attacks.

It is also an Undead unit in Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos, and there are named necromancers in World of Warcraft.

In The Battle for Wesnoth, an open source turn-based strategy game, players may advance their units as practitioners of the dark arts to the level of necromancer, thereby gaining "the terrible ability to awaken the dead with false life", among other arcane powers.

Necromancy can be learned by wizards of the School of Death in the massively multiplayer online role-playing game Wizard101 from KingsIsle Entertainment.

The necromancer is available as a profession in the Guild Wars competitive online role-playing game series from NCsoft. Able to drain life energy from their enemies, they also specialize in raising undead minions and casting curses.

In the Dungeon Management game, War for the Overworld, Necromancers appear as a unit which can raise Ghouls and Revenants.

The Character Lezard Valeth, from the video game series Valkyrie Profile, is a Necromancer.



In real world "Necro", "Necromancer", "Necromancy" is all the same.

Oh and I played a "Necro" in Everquest as well. Trying to argue that it just means "dead" is silly.

[StormPrepper]

Blue Dragon had it on the $ in post #26...take a good look at that...if you don't believe here...here's some links on the word Necrology:

Are you reeeeeely wanting me to believe that is what was on your mind when you chose the word "necro"? Just innocent "dead"... totally innocuous... hahah! yeaaaaa...right.

Or is it more like "that's my story and I'm sticking to it!"

Best go read my post#33.

"gravedigging" subtle innuendo.... you just won't stop.

..and yet you want me to ignore all of that necrological stuff they engage in. Interesting.

Just won't stop. Your statement is offensive and wrong.

Oh btw, one of my ancestral lines is complete back to 100bc. And I didn't dig up a single grave to do it.

[Religion Moderator]

Attributing motives to another Freeper and making the thread "about" him are forms of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[MHGinTN]

Delphi dear, is that you? You’re trying to impugn the origins of Christianity, so I ‘feel’ it just might be you, slithering back for more of your father’s work.

[StormPrepper]

Just so I understand how the rules are applied, could you tell me the subject of post #36?

[BlueDragon]

Trying to defend Colofornian's offensiveness by arguing semantics to justify it? ... Really?

It was the semantics which were being objected to by yourself in the first place, and still are. So yes, Really, for word usage was and still is(?) the issue at hand. I can't see how that aspect can be logically denied.

Again it's the logical fallacy of guilt by association. It's logically insulting as well as morally corrupt to engage in the practice.

Well now we are getting somewhere. It wasn't the word usage itself which was entirely inaccurate, but "guilt by association" aspect which was troubling?

What is the more logically insulting is to not acknowledge that your own initial definition was incorrect, for that definition relied not upon root and actual meanings, as I plainly enough demonstrated, and as additional links have been kindly provided by others, quite neutrally by one also, as in http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3085963/posts?page=27#27.

Which leaves reactionary argument against the use of the phrase necro-baptism still inaccurate enough, for in modern English usage "necro" as prefix, most assuredly refers to "the dead" (which is what you were arguing against) any way one chooses to slice baptize it.

I did offer for usage; necro-baptism, by proxy, adding that last portion for greater precision. Why not take me up on that offer? What objection could still remain if it were to be spoken of in that manner?

As I have told a few others --- English is my native tongue. I shall not submit to demand concerning how I speak it, in regards to those whom seek to control my own free expression, although I am open to making some reasonable modification if case can be made that to do so is necessary towards greater accuracy. But if it's just part of some politics of the aggrieved, sans enough rationality to force change for reason of accuracy & truth, then I gotta' tell ya', forget it, I will not submit to whiny complaints, or someone's hurt feelings at expense of truth & clarity in course of free expression. In other words --- I shall not agree to allowing you (or most anyone other than God Himself) to unilaterally control the narrative. Got that? Good. Let's move on...

So far -- you have yet to make a convincing case that I should make any changes, other than having decided on my own to extend grace to add "by proxy" towards alleviating concern that the LDS practice routinely involves actual dead-tissue, non-living corpses be physically present and directly submerged in LDS water pools...

To get to the crux of the matter;
Does the LDS "baptize" persons now dead "by proxy", or not? That equals baptizing the dead, as regarding dead bodies themselves, yet in absentia, not being done just "verbally", but by necessity of the doctrinal practice itself, needing "a body" to submerse, would it not? Which in LDS theology and practice (though I will not admit to in efficaciousness, before God) makes the proxy, representative of the necro- as matter of fact.

This can be seen as part of the overall [so-called] LDS theology of themselves, that it is that particular "community" alone, in the persons of their "bishops" and so called "prophets" claiming for themselves being the Only True Church, with all others outside of their realm alleged to be entirely "apostate". Hence [I assume] the perceived need from within those bounds, beginning with J.Smith himself, of there being need for this doctrine of baptism of the dead by proxy --- since to this day it is alleged that it is they alone (Temple Mormons) who have the "authority" to rightfully and properly baptize. But in reaching beyond the living in this over-reach, they do in effect, reach into the realm of the dead. Necro, necro...

It is one thing to pray concerning the dead, praying for those whom have passed on, first in thanksgiving of those persons having been created to have been among the living, and in loving remembrance of them; possibly praying then also in supplication to the Lord for those persons very souls, that those be with Him always, resurrected by His power to be with Him forever, entering into His realm by the power of His own blood sacrifice

--- it is yet another thing to hold the view that this not be in no way possible for those not "Mormon" (and that the heavenly realm is, for lack of better term, "Mormonic", with persons there living much as persons do here on earth, procreating physically and naturally, per LDS theology/eschatology -- which sort of idea or thing is spoken explicitly against in the NT (At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven) with LDS officially holding doctrine that unless by the [alleged] power and "authority" of Mormons; persons not only living, but now "dead" too, be baptized by LDS authorities, in LDS Temples, either while alive, or when having already passed from life in this realm, unto [physical] death, they can in no wise enter into the kingdom (of God). What a tacked-on, big-time change in the theology/eschatology of Christ Himself LDS teachings are, for it is most certainly NOT any Mormon who has ever themselves baptized anyone with the Holy Ghost, for that portion is of the Lord's, alone. He holds Himself at limitation of the beck and call of no man, even as He can and does, in love and not inconsiderable humility, even towards us whom He has created, condescend to those of low estate...

There is nothing in the NT which authorizes the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead by proxy (much less that only Mormon baptisms be valid or recognized by Him) but the

former proffered description

one can find evidence for early, most primitive Christian mindset of, as best as I myself can here express that, from my own previous investigations.

There was one small item which you missed, even as you repeated the charge, but have seemingly and curiously now changed the meaning by introduction of the word "innocuous", which etymology for can be found the bottom of reference page previously supplied to both you and I, and Colofornian too, by Alamo Girl;

Not to mention the shear silliness of trying to convince us all that the poster in question had no ill intent. Their intent was completely innocuous when ascribing the term necro to Latter-day Saints like me?

with that item I speak of, being again the question; where precisely, what reply#, which comment did Colofornian make which ascribed the prefix or word necro- to you directly???. You need to answer that question, or drop the claim that you, yourself have had in some way, the term "necro-" ascribed directly to you.

Though curiously...I would agree with the usage of "innocuous", that is, if necro-baptism by proxy was actually in some sense "kosher" -- but if that be the connection with yourself which provides as you put it, evidence of ill intent...
I mean...how are we to determine; how to divvy soup rations, until this point be better clarified? [8^)

Oh and I played a "Necro" in Everquest as well. Trying to argue that it just means "dead" is silly.

Does Colofornian know you from there {Everquest]? Joking aside;
Trying to argue that necro- does not and cannot mean or refer to "the dead" in the context it was used, is what is beyond silly, for what are the LDS "baptisms" by proxy all about, but "baptism" of the dead, for the dead, in the dead's name [by proxy] --- unless one does this for living persons also, but again, in absentia?

If there be something along lines of guilt by association in regards to your own [bodily] person in this, since I do not see stated evidence for the "necro-" be ascribed for yourself on this thread, are we to assume that you yourself have [bodily] taken part in these necro- baptisms, by proxy? If so, there is no demand from myself for you to identify if it were yourself [bodily] as the proxy, or as the baptizer, for we need not get personal when speaking of theological concerns.

Yet still, if one takes it personal, then there is no cure, other than to in the future attempt to distance oneself, taking things at arms length, if at all possible.

We were speaking of word usage, were we not?

And now for a musical selection, one I've linked to FR pages before. In this particular piece, there is one portion of Mr. Young's lyric which may seem troubling (and which he may have meant negatively, in original intent), yet it is true enough that Christ seemingly did not "deliver"...Himself...from the cross "right away", albeit He did rise bodily from the realm of the necro, and in my own experience, has most certainly by supernatural intervention delivered my own self from great bodily harm, if not certain death, "right away" (just at the last possible seeming moment) more than once...

Soldier [upload society]

[Colofornian]

It was the semantics which were being objected to by yourself in the first place, and still are. So yes, Really, for word usage was and still is(?) the issue at hand. I can't see how that aspect can be logically denied. [Citing SP: "Again it's the logical fallacy of guilt by association. It's logically insulting as well as morally corrupt to engage in the practice."] Well now we are getting somewhere. It wasn't the word usage itself which was entirely inaccurate, but "guilt by association" aspect which was troubling?

Spot on, BD.

[To SP]As I have told a few others --- English is my native tongue. I shall not submit to demand concerning how I speak it, in regards to those whom seek to control my own free expression, although I am open to making some reasonable modification if case can be made that to do so is necessary towards greater accuracy. But if it's just part of some politics of the aggrieved, sans enough rationality to force change for reason of accuracy & truth, then I gotta' tell ya', forget it, I will not submit to whiny complaints, or someone's hurt feelings at expense of truth & clarity in course of free expression.

Yup, BD. Mormon political correctness running amok. Yup. Politics of the aggrieved; victim-rights mentality where minorities of any persuasion (in this case, a religious minority attempting to control free expression. (We first got used to it here @ FR; and then, when most of the FR Mormons were zotted for legit reasons -- and a few went on "vacation" -- we just haven't been subjected to it by FR Mormons of late)

[Colofornian]

To get to the crux of the matter; Does the LDS "baptize" persons now dead "by proxy", or not? That equals baptizing the dead, as regarding dead bodies themselves, yet in absentia, not being done just "verbally", but by necessity of the doctrinal practice itself, needing "a body" to submerse, would it not? Which in LDS theology and practice (though I will not admit to in efficaciousness, before God) makes the proxy, representative of the necro- as matter of fact.

Yup. Home run. Grand slam.

(Who knows, BD? For all we know, StormPrepper may yet next complain about your use of the word "crux" -- which, etymologically, comes from crucifix. Mormons, ya know, tend to prefer the Garden of Gethsemane to Calvary as their description of Christ's atoning process...so perhaps, BD, you should have used some garden term instead so as to not offend SP...like to get to the "root" of the matter)