Author of 'Mormon Christianity' Claims Christians Can Learn From the LDS Church

The Christian Post ^ | November 11, 2013 | Tyler O'Neil

[Alex Murphy]

A Roman Catholic scholar and former philosophy and religion professor has released a new book that defends Mormonism as "one of the youngest branches on the Christian tree," and claims that Christians can learn from the Mormon religion.

Stephen H. Webb, former 25 year professor of religion and philosophy at Wabash College and author of the book, Mormon Christianity: What Other Christians Can Learn From the Latter-day Saints, told The Christian Post that, among other things, "Mormon theology teaches us to think of matter in new and creative ways."

"Traditional theology teaches that matter is lifeless, without the soul it's just dead weight," Webb explained. But this view is not inherent in the Christian faith, he argued, "it took a long time until Christians started accepting this idea of matter."

Furthermore, with the discoveries of modern physics, Webb encourages Christians to accept a more lively, spiritual view of matter.

"Matter has something of the divine in it," he argued. "Matter can be elevated, it can transcend its own state."

Webb also claims that this concept is not pantheistic, but lies at the heart of Roman Catholicism, with the idea of transubstantiation, where the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Lynn Wilder, former Brigham Young University professor and author of Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way Out of the Mormon Church, told CP that "Webb's position on Mormon teachings is corroborated in Mormon scripture where God the Father has a body of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22) as does Jesus, and that all spirit -- even their Holy Ghost -- is matter (D&C 131:7-8)."

Wilder added, however, that this belief "is what makes Mormonism polytheistic instead of monotheistic."

"In Mormonism," Wilder explained, "each God consists of matter and is separate from the others," as opposed to united in the Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

"Since a worthy priesthood-holding, temple-attending Mormon male can eventually work his way to godhood like all three members of the Mormon godhood did, according to LDS teachings, there could be millions of gods with material bodies," she added.

Wilder also emphasized that Mormons do not believe God created the universe ex nihilo, or out of nothing, citing Psalms 32 as the basis for this doctrine.

The Church of Latter-day Saints, she explained, teaches that the gods "reorganized matter that already existed (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham 4:1)."

Webb, however, defended the Church of Latter-day Saints as a branch of Christianity.

"To me, Mormons should be grouped with all the other Protestant denominations in terms of how the Catholic Church sees them," as 'separated brethren,' he explained.

Webb also lamented the Roman Catholic Church's decision -- which he called "recent" -- to not accept the baptism of Mormons. "I think that's a very unfortunate decision," he said.

"Mormons are closer to Catholics than most Protestants," Webb added, noting that they "love the ritual, love the history, family, traditional values."

He expressed annoyance at the common Evangelical dismissal of Roman Catholic and Mormon churches in that they "don't feel Jesus there." Mormons and Catholics "don't have a born again experience," but believe that faith involves "gradual, deeper immersion in scripture and tradition," he explained.

Providing an opposing view, Wilder dismissed these arguments, emphasizing the fact that Mormons do not follow the Bible alone.

"Mormons believe that Christ's church fell away after the original apostles died, so the Catholic Church is not true," she argued. "The true church was not restored until Joseph Smith, so although Webb would say they are brothers, Mormon doctrine teaches otherwise."

Wilder also acknowledged that Mormons have communion, but emphasized that they use "leavened bread and water, not fruit of the vine or unleavened bread." In short, "the Mormon Jesus teaches a different way to be saved so [He] is not the biblical Jesus."

She also claimed to know the Church of Latter-day Saints more intimately than Webb, noting her experience at Brigham Young University and her husband's experience in the temple.

The author of Mormon Christianity "would not know the deep doctrines of Mormonism that are taught in the temple or in the various priesthood classes for members," she alleged.

[Alex Murphy]

Headline at the original was too long for FR:
Author of 'Mormon Christianity' Claims Christians Can Learn From the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

"Traditional theology teaches that matter is lifeless, without the soul it's just dead weight," [Stephen H. Webb, Roman Catholic scholar and author of Mormon Christianity: What Other Christians Can Learn From the Latter-day Saints] explained. But this view is not inherent in the Christian faith, he argued, "it took a long time until Christians started accepting this idea of matter." Furthermore, with the discoveries of modern physics, Webb encourages Christians to accept a more lively, spiritual view of matter. "Matter has something of the divine in it," he argued. "Matter can be elevated, it can transcend its own state." Webb also claims that this concept is not pantheistic, but lies at the heart of Roman Catholicism, with the idea of transubstantiation, where the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus Christ....

...."In Mormonism," [Lynn Wilder, former Brigham Young University professor] explained, "each God consists of matter and is separate from the others," as opposed to united in the Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. "Since a worthy priesthood-holding, temple-attending Mormon male can eventually work his way to godhood like all three members of the Mormon godhood did, according to LDS teachings, there could be millions of gods with material bodies," she added....

....Wilder also emphasized that Mormons do not believe God created the universe ex nihilo, or out of nothing, citing Psalms 32 as the basis for this doctrine. The Church of Latter-day Saints, she explained, teaches that the gods "reorganized matter that already existed (Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham 4:1)." Webb, however, defended the Church of Latter-day Saints as a branch of Christianity. "To me, Mormons should be grouped with all the other Protestant denominations in terms of how the Catholic Church sees them," as 'separated brethren,' he explained. Webb also lamented the Roman Catholic Church's decision -- which he called "recent" -- to not accept the baptism of Mormons. "I think that's a very unfortunate decision," he said. "Mormons are closer to Catholics than most Protestants," Webb added, noting that they "love the ritual, love the history, family, traditional values."

[driftdiver]

uh no

[Mr. Lucky]

Well, presumably, everyone thinks his own religion can teach others.

[Vendome]

Just, uhmmmm, no...

[MHGinTN]

Mercy! Ol’ Joe Smith is the false prophet that just keeps on giving dontchaknow.

[Resolute Conservative]

The American Mohamhead

[Gamecock]

“Mormons are closer to Catholics than most Protestants,”

I’ve always said that.

[left that other site]

I hate when Christian teachers tell us “we have much to learn” from other (usually false) religions.

The most egregious is when we get lectured about lack of feminine modesty, or passion for our faith, and are referred to islam as a fine example of either quality.

[huldah1776]

Not going to bother reading, ROTFL.

[LibLieSlayer]

I will stick with the WORD OF GOD and the teachings of CHRIST. Thanks anyway.

[markomalley]

Question: Whether the baptism conferred by the community «The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints», called «Mormons» in the vernacular, is valid.

Response: Negative.

http://www.doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

Difference of views: Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism

Summing up, we can say: The Baptism of the Catholic Church and that of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints differ essentially, both for what concerns faith in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose name Baptism is conferred, and for what concerns the relationship to Christ who instituted it. As a result of all this, it is understood that the Catholic Church has to consider invalid, that is to say, cannot consider true Baptism, the rite given that name by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

http://www.doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html

[StormPrepper]

We definitely should celebrate our commonalities rather than rail against our differences.

I can tell you what I learned from studying Baptist history. The first baptist were put to death as heretics. Tens of thousands were martyred because they refused to give up their belief that infant baptism was wrong.

I re-examined my own commitment. Do I have their faith and undaunted commitment to Christ. Would I suffer any persecution for my belief in Christ like they did. Do I have that courage.

I have incredible admiration for those people. The protestant movement and the desire for religious freedom lead to the founding of the United States. The United States was blessed by God to be a beacon of freedom to the whole world.

We can learn a lot from people like that.

[StormPrepper]

"Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity"

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

The first article of faith for Latter-day Saints.

"no original sin"

Christ paid for this for all people.

" that Christ did not institute baptism"

We absolutely believe Christ instituted baptism, just not when the Catholics claim He did. People were baptized with authority by John and others before Jesus Himself was actually baptized. But it was Jesus that gave them the authority and instruction of how and when to do it.

[markomalley]

Take it up with the CDF. I just quoted from them.

To be candid, I neither know nor care what LDS believe.

[Alex Murphy]

I can tell you what I learned from studying Baptist history. The first baptist were put to death as heretics. Tens of thousands were martyred because they refused to give up their belief that infant baptism was wrong....

.... The protestant movement and the desire for religious freedom lead to the founding of the United States. The United States was blessed by God to be a beacon of freedom to the whole world. We can learn a lot from people like that.

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
-- Joseph Smith's "First Vision", verses 18-19, taken from History of the [LDS] Church, Vol. 1, Chapters 1-5

How much of "a lot" did you learn from "all wrong...all an abomination...all corrupt"?

[StormPrepper]

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
-- Joseph Smith's "First Vision", verses 18-19, taken from History of the [LDS] Church, Vol. 1, Chapters 1-5

How much of "a lot" did you learn from "all wrong...all an abomination...all corrupt"?

Am I supposed to in embarrassed by something said by Jesus Himself? On the contrary it's absolutely true.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:30
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

You can find good any where if you want to find it. Yes, their creeds are all wrong, but as people we all have things to teach each other about life, devotion, faith, kindness, and love.

The Jesus didn't say learn from the Samaritan's doctrine, but everyone should learn from his example.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"The first baptist were put to death as heretics.Tens of thousands were martyred because they refused to give up their belief that infant baptism was wrong."

If I wanted to learn more about this, could you advise me on when the first baptists lived (that is to say, in what century), and in what country?"

Thank you.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"The first baptist were put to death as heretics.Tens of thousands were martyred because they refused to give up their belief that infant baptism was wrong."

If I wanted to learn more about this, could you advise me on when the first baptists lived (that is to say, in what century), and in what country?"

Thank you.

[JAKraig]

You said: Difference of views: Mormons hold that there is no real Trinity, no original sin, that Christ did not institute baptism . . . . .

_____________________________________________________________

I will say that Mormons I know do believe in The Trinity, they define it differently. They believe there is a Father, a Son and a Holy Ghost. Three entities. There are at least as many good arguments in favor of the Mormon view as there are in the Catholic view. The Catholics have had their view about 1500 years longer than the Mormons however.

I have no desire to reply to this article as far arguing any validity in it, but only to the view that Mormons hold that Christ did not institute Baptism. My comments therefore are only in a very narrow line.

You will remember that Christ sought and obtained “John's Baptism”. John was already doing it prior to Christ's ministry. Christ's Apostles continued it after both John and Christ.

I don't know how any protestant can recognize any baptism other than the Catholic baptism. If a protestant minister can baptize then anybody can. They claim no priesthood authority to do so. Most say they “feel” they have been called by the Holy Spirit to be ministers. Many are ordained by their sect to be “ministers” of their faith, not to any priesthood. To say the the Mormon baptism is invalid is ok but if you do you must also invalidate every other baptism that is performed outside the Roman or Eastern Catholic Church.

While it is true that Catholic faith teaches that the whole Church is part of a royal priesthood, only ordained priests & deacons are allowed to administer any ordinances in that priesthood. The Roman Catholic Priesthood is a very complicated organization. The rules and methods of being a priest have changed over the centuries.

Many will say that because Martin Luther was a priest that protestant churches hold the priesthood through him. That is totally false, one because most protestants do not trace their history through the Lutheran Church and two, Martin Luther never had authority to ordain anybody to be a priest, he was a priest, not a bishop. Bishops are priests, yes, but they are still special with special authority. Ordinations in the Catholic Church are done from high to low except for the POPE and the Pope is just the leading Cardinal which is usually an elevated Bishop and does not require special ordination for his position, however he must elevate other Cardinals. While technically Bishops and Cardinals are Priests that are “elevated” not really ordained they do require the formality of Letter or in person laying on of hands to receive their official elevation. No priest can elevate himself to the “office” of Bishop or Cardinal any more than a Deacon can elevate himself to a Priest.

The Catholic Church priesthood has evolved much, especially in the first 1000-1100 years, it is stabilizing now and for the last few hundred years has not undergone dramatic change although there have been some significant changes especially in the college of Cardinals size and age limits. At any rate, Martin Luther was never elevated or given authority to elevate others including deacons to priest.

The keys of the kingdom were given to Peter. Those keys included sealing in Heaven what was sealed on earth. I know of no place where the Catholic Church has given up those keys. There may be many good arguments as to who held them when but I know of no time when they were voluntarily given to any Protestant church.

The reality is that any church that proclaims itself part of the “Holy Catholic Church” is not with the possible exception of the Roman Catholic Church, maybe the Eastern Orthodox and maybe a few churches Whose history predate Constantine. Saying something does not make it so.

If a protestant minister proclaims the right through the Holy Spirit to Baptize then certainly Mormon ministers have just as much right to do the same thing. I realize that Mormons do not claim that authority as coming from The Holy Ghost, they claim their linage to Peter. Unless you can prove otherwise one “claim” is as good as another.

After saying all that, it does not mean that I think that only Catholics are Christians. I personally allow anyone who says that they follow Christ to be a Christian in my book, fortunately I am not a judge of any significance in any realm so it really doesn't matter what I think to anyone except me.

[Colofornian]

Yes, their creeds are all wrong, but as people we all have things to teach each other about life, devotion, faith, kindness, and love.

Tell us, EXACTLY: What is "wrong" within the Apostles Creed?

What's "off-base" there, even from a Mormon theological perspective?