Posted on 02/12/2014 9:14:01 PM PST by ATOMIC_PUNK
Well, while there were wrongs done in the Crusades, it wasn’t because they were fighting islam.
THAT was the part they got right.
They just stopped too soon. They left some.
Wrong-o.
GOD preserved it.
He didn't need the Catholic church to hold His hand or do it for Him.
Agreed on this, metmom. I often wonder what would have happened had they not been targeted when they were....Would we have the same issues we have today with Islam in the Middle East? Loads of “what ifs”.
Then it's NOT security!
There are no verse which “clearly state the believer is secure” in the absolute sense.
There most certainly are.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Huh? I thought you said the Catholic religion has ALWAYS been the same!?
Augustine on irresistible grace, final perseverance, limited atonement, and whatever else I missed which he touches on here:
“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)
“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)
“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)
“But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own,” He immediately added, “But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for “there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace,” he adds, “then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”” (Tractates on the Gospel of John, 15:17-19)
“Then it’s NOT security!”
Sure it is. It’s just conditional and not absolute.
“There most certainly are.”
Nope. Not a single one. If there were, then that would mean the Bible contradicts itself and that is an impossibility. Again, some Protestants are bright enough to realize this: http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/unconditional-eternal-security.htm
John 5, for instance:
OBJECTION #4. “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life,” Jn. 5:24. The verse says “will not be condemned.” Therefore, one cannot lose it!
ANSWER: The word in Jn. 5:24 rendered “believes” is transliterated as PISTEUON and is also a PRESENT PARTICIPLE in the Greek. Therefore, the Lord is saying here that we must CONTINUOUSLY BE BELIEVING the Father, that is, his testimony about Jesus, which implies that Jesus alone is to be the focal point of our TRUST for our soul’s salvation. See Matt. 17:5 cf. Jn. 14:6. We will never be condemned, as long as we keep this condition — a continued 100% trusting in Jesus for our soul’s salvation.
John 10, for instance:
OBJECTION #1. Jesus said, “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of my hand,” Jn. 10:28. Therefore, if, having received eternal life, we could lose it and perish, it would make Christ a liar.
“Notice a triple promise here concerning the security of God’s sheep. First, Christ gives them ‘eternal’ life. Second, they shall ‘never’ perish, and third, neither shall any pluck them out of Christ’s hand.”(26)
ANSWER: Jn. 10:28 is a wonderful and true promise, but only as Jesus meant it to be understood! We must examine Jn. 10:27 carefully to understand who “them” and “they” are in verse 28 and what the Lord was saying. It reads, “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they FOLLOW me.” This is the only type of person, the one that meets these conditions, that will “NEVER PERISH,” according to the next verse!
Did you notice the words, “they follow me”? The word translated “follow” is a PRESENT INDICATIVE ACTIVE in the Greek, which asserts something which is occurring while the speaker is making the statement. In other words, as long as we remain faithful and CONTINUE to follow Jesus, He will, indeed, assure us that we will “never perish,” v.28.
No such promise, however, is given here (or anywhere in the Bible) to one that would turn and start “to follow Satan” as Paul knew could and did happen (1 Tim. 5:15)! It clearly does NOT cover such. Some read into Jn. 10:28 the words, “under any circumstance” after the words “never perish,” but they are NOT there! Jesus did NOT include them in his promise and neither should we!
And remember, Corner is as anti-Catholic as they come, but he knows the truth about OSAS. It’s a fraud.
If it’s conditional, you are not secure.
Catholics would tend to slat things I’ve found. Or make stuff up like the assumption of Mary.
You might want to read Augustine’s A Treatise on Final Perseverance, chapters 6-9. The most logical thing to ask - right out of the gate, is why such a phrase as “final perseverance” is needed if OSAS is true.
Or not. As the assumption of Mary is not in scripture. That tells me that sticking with Gods’ word is not paramount.
“If it’s conditional, you are not secure.”
If it’s conditional, it’s conditional security.
“Catholics would tend to slat things I’ve found. Or make stuff up like the assumption of Mary.”
Protestantism is made up. It was made up on the cloaca by Martin Luther. A fitting place.
“As the assumption of Mary is not in scripture.”
Sola scriptura is not in scripture.
“That tells me that sticking with Gods’ word is not paramount.”
Then you must believe it isn’t paramount since sola scriptura isn’t in the Bible but you believe it.
Those verses posted do not support conditional security but rather absolute security.
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.<<
Much of what Catholicism teaches I don’t find to be true when searching the scriptures.
OSAS, in the modern context, is not true, which many take to mean that a person who made a public confession, and then goes off to renounce Christianity, is saved. Final perseverance is true, which states that the elect can never fall away, and only the elect can ever persevere, as the Grace of God is what differentiates them from others. An elect person might fall away for a time, but God always brings them back, and conforms them, through the sanctification of the Spirit, into the image of His Son. There is no treatise on 'Final perseverance." You are referring to the book I already quoted from, which is the treatise on the "gift" of perseverance. The word gift is significant.
Here's a second quote, just because I like to torment Papists:
"From a human perspective it is inscrutable why, given two pious men, one should be given the grace of final perseverance and the other not. From a divine perspective it must be the case that the individual who perseveres is among the predestined while the other is not. The one who fails to persevere has not been called according to God's plan and chosen in Christ according to God's purpose." (Augustine, Treatise on the Gift of Perseverance)
According to you? Who are you?! I don't recognize your Apostolic authority!
I'll stick with the tradition that was handed down to me LOL:
Cyril of Jerusalem on Sola Scriptura:
Not even his own teachings, he teaches, if it cannot be shown out of the holy scriptures, should be accepted:
“Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. Lecture 4, Ch. 17)
Tradition is the whole knowledge of godliness contained both in the Old and New Testament, not that which is invented by man, transmitted by word of mouth to the illiterate:
“But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to you by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures. For since all cannot read the Scriptures, some being hindered as to the knowledge of them by want of learning, and others by a want of leisure, in order that the soul may not perish from ignorance, we comprise the whole doctrine of the Faith in a few lines. This summary I wish you both to commit to memory when I recite it, and to rehearse it with all diligence among yourselves, not writing it out on paper, but engraving it by the memory upon your heart , taking care while you rehearse it that no Catechumen chance to overhear the things which have been delivered to you. I wish you also to keep this as a provision through the whole course of your life, and beside this to receive no other, neither if we ourselves should change and contradict our present teaching, nor if an adverse angel, transformed into an angel of light 2 Corinthians 11:14 should wish to lead you astray. For though we or an angel from heaven preach to you any other gospel than that you have received, let him be to you anathema. Galatians 1:8-9 So for the present listen while I simply say the Creed, and commit it to memory; but at the proper season expect the confirmation out of Holy Scripture of each part of the contents. For the articles of the Faith were not composed as seemed good to men; but the most important points collected out of all the Scripture make up one complete teaching of the Faith. And just as the mustard seed in one small grain contains many branches, so also this Faith has embraced in few words all the knowledge of godliness in the Old and New Testaments. Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which you now receive, and write them on the table of your heart.” (Ibid, Lecture 5, Ch. 12)
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
What were to be searched to see if what you teach is true?
I believe the Papists look as Augustine as the crazy Church Father in the attic.
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