Posted on 02/14/2014 4:07:38 PM PST by NYer
Surveying history for anything resembling same-sex marriage in any culture, clime, or era is a fruitless search. It has never been proposed, not even in ancient Greece, as some would like to argue. So why does this enigma of history seem like just the next progressive step in our own culture?
The answer, oddly enough, seems to be locked up in the birth control pill. Let me explain.
Healthy cultures and civilizations all have one thing in common. There is a deep understanding (even if not always acted upon or articulated) that my life has meaning because of the sacrifices I make for those who come after me, through loyalty to a clan, tribe or wider society. This simple "our lives for theirs" approach is what has animated history for centuries. Think of the building of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, which the early masons knew would never be finished in their lifetimes. "Our lives for theirs" is an easy barometer to see if a civilization is on the rise or on decline. When that order becomes inverted, like ancient Rome or late Renaissance Venice, where each man and woman lives just for himself, the civilization will decay and cease to exist.
The sexual revolution of the 1960s is a marked example of this inversion in the West with the arrival of the pill. Never in the history of the world had the fundamental link between human sexuality and reproduction been so decidedly unhinged, ushering in a new conception of sexuality. Sex became about many things: self-expression, self-gratification, exploration, desire, etc.…but not about its main reason for existence: to propagate the species. The general "our life for theirs" attitude lived out by parents for centuries suddenly became suspect as self-gratification came into vogue. "Why would anyone voluntarily put themselves through all that hard work to raise more than two children?" became the new model under which we live today.
While contraception of various sorts was nothing new, the wholesale use of it was. Without the "baby bonus," concepts of self-control, self-mastery, self-donation have not only became outdated, but an object of mockery. Denuding sex of its natural procreative character made sex simply about "me," not my spouse, my children, my family, or my community. Porn, "twerking," and the over-sexualization of young children are only the latest additions in the "sex is about me" trajectory.
Aristotle (384 -322 BC) was the first to argue for the link between what we find pleasurable and what is needed for a healthy polis, or more generally, society. An act was pleasurable to ensure that it would take place, but was not the most important reason for the action. Food tastes good so we will eat. The connection between sexual pleasure and procreation is why same-sex marriage has never been accepted in the history of the world before. It was always generally understood that such a "marriage" is not fruitful no matter what the feelings may be of those involved.
Generations of couples coupling without conceiving have led to the misperception that sexuality is, in fact, merely another contact sport, or whatever else you may want it to be, without a fixed meaning other than pleasure. Sex in the minds of most no longer has any natural link with making babies. And if the link dares to happen biologically when nature asserts herself, it is a failure, a mistake, an accident – not the natural course of things.
How, then, one asks, could Catholics be so cruel to want to deny same-sex marriage to those who just have a different idea about sex? Why limit ourselves to heterosexual activity within marriage? Can't pleasure and satisfaction be found elsewhere? Well, clearly they can, to a degree. But babies cannot. And the stable families necessary to raise healthy children, study after study has shown, cannot be reformulated into any shape of laissez-faire family. Statistics show that 95 percent of Catholics are using contraception to limit family size. Clearly there has been a dramatic failure to educate ourselves about what the Church teaches on love and sexuality in the pews, in classrooms, and in Catholic media. But at the heart of it, the Christian ethos, embodied in Christ's own sacrifice of himself for all of us, needs to be revived. Ultimately, are our actions life-giving or sterile? To this question, our answer should always be "our lives for theirs."
Statistics show that 95 percent of Catholics are using contraception to limit family size. Clearly there has been a dramatic failure to educate ourselves about what the Church teaches on love and sexuality in the pews, in classrooms, and in Catholic media. But at the heart of it, the Christian ethos, embodied in Christ's own sacrifice of himself for all of us, needs to be revived. Ultimately, are our actions life-giving or sterile? To this question, our answer should always be "our lives for theirs."
I disagree.
The slippery slope began before that.
Actions always follow thoughts. The acceptance of birth control (if you believe it is evil) and abortion (which IS evil) is a RESULT of the moral decline, not the cause of it.
It's simply not possible for those two things to cause moral decline because they wouldn't exist in a moral society, therefore the moral decline began in the hearts of man before the signs and symptoms of it appeared in man's life.
So the Pope was supporting Mormon and Islamic polygamy in America in 1880, that is interesting.
I would guess it's not up to any of you to educate yourselves...It's up to the priests, cardinals and bishops to educate you...
Y'all claim that your religion teaches that artificial contraception is bad...Well it does not teach that...Your teachers aren't teaching that at all...You ought to put the blame where it belongs...
And contraception is responsible for queers??? I'll tell you what's responsible for queers...A single priest can recruit hundreds of young boys into the homo lifestyle...And each one of those that grows up to be a priest can recruit hundreds more...
The question is: why isn't the Catholic religion teaching what it professes to teach???
Well said.
No, gay marriage is new. Buggery is very old. Marriage between buggerers is a completely new idea.
“Well said.”
It was? Where in your linked to timeline do you see gay marriage being practiced?
“Well it does not teach that...”
Yes, it does - see the Catechism. See Humani Vitae.
“Your teachers aren’t teaching that at all...”
Yes, some are, while others aren’t. Fifty years ago ALL were. One day, again, it will be ALL.
“You ought to put the blame where it belongs...”
I do. I blame the world, the flesh and the devil. They gave us Protestantism which made all of this possible.
For instance, pummeling a libtard with a lead pipe could be considered pleasurable, but that isn't the most important reason for the action.
Blame shifting 101. It's everyone else's fault, not ours.
Sounds like the gates of hell ARE prevailing against the RCC because the leaders are LETTING it.
It IS their responsibility that it's not being taught any more. Nobody is holding a gun to the heads of those cardinals, bishops, and priests who are not teaching the CCC.
No. It's YOUR church leaders not teaching what the official doctrine of the Catholic church is that is the problem.
Man up and own it.
Indeed. Catholics are even more liberal than Protestants in general, and even weekly Catholics are less conservative than fundamental evangelicals. And the latter represents classic Protestantism far more than its liberal counterpart, which are overall more like Catholicism!
But consider the source. Those who uphold the Spanish Inquisition, and likewise that if anyone and their documentation disagrees with with their assertions, then they must be incompetent, have already marginalized themselves as not worthy of response.
And as for the devil, one that of the things which characterizes doctrines of demons is forbidding to marry. (1Tim. 4:1-3)
Which in Rome, contrary to Scripture, is a church law that makes being celibate the norm among RC clergy (besides hiereus never being used to title NT pastors), which presumes they all have that gift. (1Cor. 7:)
And among those who sppsdly have that gift, a combined 15 percent of the clergy identified themselves as "gay (9%) or more on the homosexual side (6%)." Among younger priests a combined 23 percent did so.
17 percent of the priests said "definitely" , and 27% said "probably," a homosexual subculture'--defined as a `definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary'--exists in their diocese or religious order. - www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/reports/LAT-Priest-Survey.pdf
“Blame shifting 101. It’s everyone else’s fault, not ours.”
No. Logic. How much sin would there be without the world, the flesh, and the devil? 1 John 2:15-17; 1 Peter 5:8,9 None among human beings because there would be any human beings. Are all Protestants here public school drop outs?
“Sounds like the gates of hell ARE prevailing against the RCC because the leaders are LETTING it.”
You must be talking about Royal Crown Cola (RCC). And human beings fail. The Church doesn’t.
“It IS their responsibility that it’s not being taught any more.”
Exactly - many of them now act like Protestants. Hence, the problem.
“Nobody is holding a gun to the heads of those cardinals, bishops, and priests who are not teaching the CCC.”
Actually someone is, but they should be willing to be martyred anyway rather than act like Protestants.
“No. It’s YOUR church leaders not teaching what the official doctrine of the Catholic church is that is the problem.”
Agreed - because too many of them act like Protestants.
“Man up and own it.”
I do - our problem is too much Protestantism.
It’s not Protestantism. It’s Modernism. The Church has been infected with it since just before Vatican II.
“It’s not Protestantism. It’s Modernism.”
Protestantism and Modernism are overlapping and the former leads to the latter.
“The Church has been infected with it since just before Vatican II.”
False. The Catholic Church has been infected with modernists since the late 19th century - hence Pascendi dominici gregis was issued in 1907 not 1957.
“Certainly this suffices to show superabundantly by how many roads Modernism leads to the annihilation of all religion. The first step in this direction was taken by Protestantism; the second is made by Modernism; the next will plunge headlong into atheism.” Pascendi Dominici Gregis, 39.
“The clergy are asked to return to their ancient lowliness and poverty, and in their ideas and action to be guided by the principles of Modernism; and there are some who, echoing the teaching of their Protestant masters, would like the suppression of ecclesiastical celibacy. What is there left in the Church which is not to be reformed according to their principles?” Pascendi Dominici Gregis, 38.
See that? “echoing the teaching of their Protestant masters”.
Protestantism gave birth to Modernism. If Catholics wouldn’t act like Protestants there wouldn’t be any Modernism in the Church. Let the Protestants keep their filthy Modernism. We don’t want it.
Those Bible-only protestants on this board who take issue with the Catholic Church nowadays have good reason to. I still think they are wrong in their theology, but to outright blow them off for some of their criticism of the current state of the Catholic Church and its so-called leaders is wrong as well.
And I thought I could never say that.
And this is where you are wrong and metmom is correct. Individual Catholics are not to blame. The heirarchy is to blame. 100%. They are the ones, since Vatican II, who have allowed Modernism/Protestantism/false ecumenism (whatever you want to call it) into the Church. THEY are the reason why the Church is in disarray. When THEY start acting like Catholics, then MAYBE lay folks will follow.
The Second Vatican Council was the main event in the Church in the 20th Century. In principle, it meant an end to the hostilities between the Church and modernism, which was condemned in the First Vatican Council. On the contrary: neither the world is the realm of evil and sin –these are conclusions clearly achieved in Vatican II—nor is the Church the sole refuge of good and virtue. Modernism was, most of the time, a reaction against injustices and abuses that disparaged the dignity and the rights of the person
Did this guy ever read Pascendi? Does he even know what Modernism is/was?
Also, you heard it from the horse's mouth: Vatican II ended the hostilities between the Church and Modernism. Tell me why there should ever be an end to that. The Church should always be against Modernism. But he's right: Vatican II now embraces it.
“Pascendi warned the Church, but it fell on too many deaf ears.”
False. Pascendi was tremendously successful for 30 or 40 years. There were almost no notable examples of modernism to speak of in those decades.
“I still think they are wrong in their theology, but to outright blow them off for some of their criticism of the current state of the Catholic Church and its so-called leaders is wrong as well.”
And I don’t see anyone doing that. I just know where the blame lies. The heresy of Protestantism gave us the heresy of Modernism.
And what happened after those 40 years??
Stop blaming Protestantism. The blame falls on the hierarchy. THEY allowed it to infect the Church. Full stop. And they aren’t doing anything to reverse the trend. Instead they continue to hold up Vatican II as the best thing since sliced bread. Oh “the enormous fruits” says Francis!!
Please.
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