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Pope Francis on Feb. 14: "Old Mass? Just a kind of fashion!"
Rorate caeli | 2/15/14 | New Catholic

Posted on 02/15/2014 11:08:30 AM PST by ebb tide

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However, he made a quite strong statement when he said that he understands when the old generation returns to what it experienced, but that he cannot understand the younger generation wishing to return to it.
1 posted on 02/15/2014 11:08:30 AM PST by ebb tide
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: ebb tide

Seriously, that was the nicest I could come up with.

A “pope” stating that the liturgy of hundreds of years is just a @#$#*$%( fashion.

How long Lord until you deliver us from the wolves?


3 posted on 02/15/2014 11:14:02 AM PST by piusv
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To: ebb tide

Dear God, have mercy.


4 posted on 02/15/2014 11:14:39 AM PST by ottbmare (the OTTB mare, now a proud Marine Mom)
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To: ebb tide
I have to side with Pope Benedict XVI-

"What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place."

5 posted on 02/15/2014 11:16:26 AM PST by NCjim (Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.)
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Forgot to post the link:

Pope Francis on Feb. 14: "Old Mass? Just a kind of fashion!"

6 posted on 02/15/2014 11:22:30 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

He seems to be an ignorant cafeteria Catholic, who doesn’t understand the Theology embedded in the Liturgy.

The “ideas” embedded into the Liturgy and Traditions IS the Catholic Church.....and he is throwing out the Catholic Canon—and the Thomism (Reason and Logic and Faith) of the Catholic Church—the same as Vatican II did to create a “Church of Nice”—ecumenicalism to eliminate Truth/God—and create a Church to worship Man and remove God.

The more this pope “talks”, the more he reveals he is one of those “Progressive” Jesuits who were so destructive to the education of the masses who literally created “social” “justice” (such an irrational use of the word “Justice”) for the Marxist takeover of the Catholic Churches around the world.

And the Catholic Church used to wield the Sword of Truth.....totally emasculated now with Socialism (which ROTS the Soul). Sickening.


7 posted on 02/15/2014 11:27:17 AM PST by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: ebb tide

Francis is the Obama of Catholicism.

Not just disregard for history and what brought us to this place in time, but outright hostility to it.


8 posted on 02/15/2014 11:31:01 AM PST by Reagan80 ("In this current crisis, government is not the solution to our problems, government IS the problem")
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To: ebb tide

Must Catholics froth at everything Francis says? Did you miss him saying “We must go deep”? and that, missing the substance, no “moda” will compensate?

Learn from Hebrews about shadows, mere “copies of the heavenly things”. You cherish ancient ritual? Bid farewell to Rome and head back to Sinai!

Or don’t, and simply realize Jesus is “better”.

Protestantism’s much ballyhooed schisms have strong competition from supposedly unified Rome.


9 posted on 02/15/2014 11:33:17 AM PST by avenir (I'm pessimistic about man, but I'm optimistic about GOD!)
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To: ebb tide

Ok Pope Frankie —what do you want to see - an even larger contingent going over to the Bishop Lefebre group? —because they will. Most traditionalists, especially the younger ones, don’t think what they’re doing is either fashionable or whimsical. They’re serious. If it weren’t for groups like The Society of St. Peter (Vatican approved) more people would have gone Society of St. Pius X —Lefebre group. The question is —how much is a traditional latin catholic going to contort over being schismatic or beng forced to have the Novus Ordo as they’re only choice. The last 2 popes did a splendid job at making a place at the table for both kinds of people. Frankie, whatcha gonna do?


10 posted on 02/15/2014 11:40:42 AM PST by brooklyn dave
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To: brooklyn dave

It’s as if this pope wants schism.


11 posted on 02/15/2014 11:52:09 AM PST by piusv
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To: ebb tide

Oh, he must have been taken out of context. I can’t believe Pope Rock Star would ever say this.


12 posted on 02/15/2014 12:01:08 PM PST by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard (If you don't stand up, you don't stand a chance.)
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To: ebb tide

PLEASE!

The blame rests on the Vatican translation team. They are the worst in the world.

Frankly, it is practically a jobs program for the unfortunate, equivalent to the sign language interpreter Obama used in Africa.

Please review and compare: http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/12/15/obama-gets-the-fake-sign-language-interpreter-treatment-on-snl/

In other words, you are getting all torqued out of shape due to bad translation and media bias...


13 posted on 02/15/2014 12:42:02 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: ebb tide

Can he possibly be THAT shallow?


14 posted on 02/15/2014 12:48:00 PM PST by pgkdan
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To: piusv

You may be on to something there. I have felt that I’m being pushed away by this pope.


15 posted on 02/15/2014 12:49:38 PM PST by pgkdan
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To: ebb tide
He's sounding more like Ubama every day.

I wonder if he's an Alinskyite?

16 posted on 02/15/2014 2:41:12 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Moslems reserve the right to behead anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: ebb tide

Rorate Caeli has a rather disturbing, but unsurprising, post concerning the Holy Father’s view of the traditional Mass and the younger generation’s attachment to it.

Speaking to the Bishops of the Czech Republic during their recent ad limina visit, the pope said (according to Archbishop Jan Graubner who was present):

…he cannot understand the younger generation wishing to return to it [the ancient liturgy]. “When I search more thoroughly – the Pope said – I find that it is rather a kind of fashion. And if it is a fashion, therefore it is a matter that does not need that much attention. It is just necessary to show some patience and kindness to people who are addicted to a certain fashion. But I consider greatly important to go deep into things, because if we do not go deep, no liturgical form, this or that one, can save us.

“Search more thoroughly…”  Really?

I wonder exactly where this thorough search took place. If it was in His Holiness’ former See, the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires, perhaps that’s the problem.

Had he visited and searched a different diocese, you know… one with a healthy liturgical life wherein the traditional Mass is routinely made available to the faithful, he would have discovered what most everyone reading this blog already knows:

The devotion of the younger generation to the traditional Mass has nothing whatsoever to do with fashion; it has to do with a deep seated desire for authentic Catholic worship, unencumbered by anthropocentrism, protestantism and modernism.

As a matter of fact, Pope Francis has it exactly backwards.

The less-than-fifty year old rite invented by the Consilium and mercilessly inflicted upon the Church by Pope Paul VI, that is merely a fashion, and a passing one at that.

If the witness of the last eleven months tells us anything at all about this pope, it’s that he has no interest whatsoever in taking on the “smell of traditional Catholic sheep.”

They represent the solitary group toward which he has demonstrated exactly no “patience and kindness” whatsoever, choosing instead to belittle their spiritual offerings while hurling insults at them at every possible opportunity.

Either Archbishop  Graubner’s recollection is seriously flawed, or he and his brother bishops just had their collective legs pulled.


17 posted on 02/15/2014 2:42:22 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
The less-than-fifty year old rite invented by the Consilium and mercilessly inflicted upon the Church by Pope Paul VI, that is merely a fashion, and a passing one at that.

It's not passing quick enough.

18 posted on 02/15/2014 2:46:26 PM PST by piusv
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To: ebb tide
And if it is a fashion, therefore it is a matter that does not need that much attention. It is just necessary to show some patience and kindness to people who are addicted to a certain fashion.

Could he be any more condescending?? Crazy that the whole world thinks he's so humble. His Holiness is without a doubt the least humble pontiff in recent memory.
19 posted on 02/15/2014 2:53:27 PM PST by irishjuggler
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
The blame rests on the Vatican translation team. They are the worst in the world.

Since when? I don't recall this extreme, pervasive translation problem under Pope Benedict (and he's only been gone a year).

20 posted on 02/15/2014 2:58:03 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: BlatherNaut

I think he was being facetious. You know, because so many Catholics will come in here and defend this crap.


21 posted on 02/15/2014 2:58:54 PM PST by piusv
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To: BlatherNaut
"Since when? I don't recall this extreme, pervasive translation problem under Pope Benedict (and he's only been gone a year)."

I'm sure hiring must be motivated by compassion, since the translation skills are so weak.

[You do know I'm kidding about this? FRomans have been telling me that it was a translation issue or that the "mainstream media" hates the big guy ...]

22 posted on 02/15/2014 3:23:58 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: avenir

Most “catholics” here are just high church protestants who want to feel better about their sins by putting down the Pope. (also seeing as this is the internet, I wouldn’t be surprised if most of them are trolling or trying to get a reaction from people)


23 posted on 02/15/2014 3:25:43 PM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

The translators are horrible, but what he said was that the old mass was a “fad” with young people and people in general.

Well, you could say many things that young people take up (in the Church are “fads” (such as the charismatics, various lay movements, etc.), but I don’t see why the Pope has to criticize and belittle this one. If it’s a “fad” among young people, it’s important to them, and he should address it with more respect.

Unless he’s afraid of it, which he clearly is. I love this Pope in many ways, but he’s a very ‘80s kind of guy in a lot of other ways, and one thing they had in spades was a horror of anything pre-Vatican II.


24 posted on 02/15/2014 3:36:39 PM PST by livius
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To: Brian Kopp DPM; All
They represent the solitary group toward which he has demonstrated exactly no “patience and kindness” whatsoever, choosing instead to belittle their spiritual offerings while hurling insults at them at every possible opportunity.

It's so over the top from a spiritual perspective that it brings to mind John 15:18 - If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.

The persecution of the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculata is another indication that Tradition is under heavy spiritual assault. Their devotion to the Blessed Mother combined with their "drift" toward Tradition made them a prime target of the devil.

On the other hand, I recently heard a traditionalist bishop say that the pope told him that the Tridentine Mass is one of the treasures of the Church. And hasn't he dedicated his papacy to Our Lady of Fatima? Perhaps he'll end up being the pope who finally consecrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

25 posted on 02/15/2014 3:36:56 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

:)


26 posted on 02/15/2014 3:38:38 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: BlatherNaut
Perhaps he'll end up being the pope who finally consecrates Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

I believe in miracles. And that would be a miracle.

27 posted on 02/15/2014 3:50:52 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: ebb tide

This post is to apologize for post #2. I shouldn’t have used that kind of language. I reacted.


28 posted on 02/15/2014 4:11:52 PM PST by piusv
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To: Brian Kopp DPM
I believe in miracles. And that would be a miracle.

Indeed.

29 posted on 02/15/2014 4:15:59 PM PST by BlatherNaut
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To: irishjuggler

I thought this after his first dozen acts of ostentatious humility.


30 posted on 02/15/2014 5:07:55 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: escapefromboston
Most “catholics” here are just high church protestants who want to feel better about their sins by putting down the Pope.

If anybody is putting down anybody, it's the Pope putting down traditional Catholics:

The Pope Francis Little Book of Insults

"Old maid!" "Specialist of the Logos!" "Rosary counter!" "Functionary!" "Self-absorbed, Promethean neo-Pelagian!" "Restorationist!" "Pelagian!" "Mr and Mrs Whiner!" "Triumphalist!" "Liquid Christian!" "Museum mummy!" "Renaissance prince!" "Airport Bishop!" "Ideologue of the Logos!" "Leprous courtier!" "Idealogue!" "Long-faced, mournful funeral Christian!" "Gnostic!" "Careerist Bishop!" "Sourpuss!" "Pretender!" "Liturgical obsessive!" "Sayer of prayers!" "Authoritarian!" "Elitist!" "Querulous and disillusioned pessimist!" "Sad Christian!" "Pickled pepper-faced Christian!" "Children! Afraid to dance! To cry! Afraid of everything!" "Asker for certainty in all things!" "Closed, sad, trapped Christian who is not a free Christian!" "Pagan Christian!" "Little monster!" "Defeated Christian!" "Creed-reciting, parrot Christian!" "Watered-down faith, weak-hoped Christian!" "Inquisitorial beater!" "Seminarians who grit their teeth and wait to finish, follow rules and smile [who] reveal the hypocrisy of clericalism - one of the worst evils!" "Abstract ideologue!" "Fundamentalist!" "Smarmy, idolator priest!" "Worshiper of the god Narcissus!" "Vain, butterfly-priest!" "Priest-wheeler dealer!" "Priest-tycoon!" "Religious who have a heart as sour as vinegar!" "Promoter of the poison of immanence!" “Those closed in the formality of a prayer that is cold, stingy [who] might end up as Michal, in the sterility of her formality.”

31 posted on 02/15/2014 5:11:44 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: escapefromboston

The is a portrait of Pope Francis in the vestibulum of our chapel where a diocese Tridentine Mass is celebrated.

I always feel like turning the portrait upside down or sideways or something during the Mass.


32 posted on 02/15/2014 5:19:29 PM PST by steve86 (Some things aren't really true but you wouldn't be half surprised if they were.)
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To: brooklyn dave

To defend the Pope:

What is the actual difference in the two masses, the TLM and the Novus Ordo? Isn’t Jesus as present in one as the other?

I understand that some prefer one over the other, and some priests are poor officiants. But are they not equal in their sacredness? And from the point of view of the presence of the Lord or the sacredness of the rite, the differences would be superficial.


33 posted on 02/15/2014 5:32:03 PM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: ALPAPilot
What is the actual difference in the two masses, the TLM and the Novus Ordo?

But are they not equal in their sacredness?

No, they are not equally sacred.

34 posted on 02/15/2014 6:05:23 PM PST by ebb tide
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To: ALPAPilot

ALPAPilot:

Ebb tide photo collage there is extremely descriptive.

Both the Tridentine (now officially called The Extraordinary Form) and Novus Ordo are valid masses, as you point out.

One of the key differences is the reverence shown to God during the whole of the Mass; and specifically to Christ in the Form of the Eucharist.

That second photo is a very common scene at large parishes just before Holy Communion, where a dozen or more Eucharistic Ministers, some better dressed than others (ahem...) are crowded around the Altar in a fashion that looks like chaos if you walked in right at that moment.

The loss of respect and decorum to Christ present makes more traditional Catholics, or even just more conservative and reserved individuals *cringe*.

To have the leader of your Church criticize you when you can plainly see and feel that something is wrong and inappropriate, is disheartening to say the least.


35 posted on 02/15/2014 8:47:35 PM PST by Reagan80 ("In this current crisis, government is not the solution to our problems, government IS the problem")
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To: Reagan80

The fact that you criticize the dress of the Eucharistic ministers (not undeservedly) and use the word fashion in your description would seem to make the Pope’s point.

I’m not certain the Pope was trying to denigrate the TLM, and to assume he had from a third person account, in a very short translated account, from a hostile incompetent press is somewhat unfair.

Pope Benedict also had some criticism of the TLM in his book The Spirit of the Liturgy, but he was trying to get to the essentials of the matter.


36 posted on 02/16/2014 5:01:26 AM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: ALPAPilot; Reagan80
The fact that you criticize the dress of the Eucharistic ministers (not undeservedly) and use the word fashion in your description would seem to make the Pope’s point.

I'm not sure I understand. Reagan was describing the Novus Ordo, not the TLM. Francis was describing the TLM.

37 posted on 02/16/2014 5:17:35 AM PST by piusv
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To: ALPAPilot

it has nothing to do with the personal sacredness of the priest. A priest can be the biggest whore master in the world —and in up a storm—that does not prevent the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. When they changed the rite from Tridentine to Novus Ordo they changed the emphasis from “a sacrifice” —or as my I guess there was a sort of thinking at the time —especially in North America, English speaking countries, and perhaps countries like Germany & Holland where u have a mixed Protestant/Catholic population—that if we make the mass less mysterious—less hocus pocus—they won’t think of us as so strange. The changes that did occur weren’t actually the original mind of the Vatican. The genie was out of the bottle. The mid to late sixties experienced crazy folk masses with nuns with guitars and a lot of bad music etc (although I have to say I did enjoy it as a kid of 10-11 years old). The priest became a personality and later on an amorphous kind of therapeutic feeling intruded itself on the mass. In the days of the old mass, I am sure there were good preachers ad awful preachers -maybe that was the only place where a priest’s personality came into play. This is the best way I can explain it.


38 posted on 02/16/2014 6:25:50 AM PST by brooklyn dave
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To: brooklyn dave
The changes that did occur weren’t actually the original mind of the Vatican

Actually, they were. And they were many. We're not talking about simple abuses. We're talking about designing a completely different "mass".

39 posted on 02/16/2014 6:59:23 AM PST by piusv
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To: ALPAPilot; Reagan80; piusv

So do you consider Vatican Radio to be “a hostile, incompetent press”? If so, shouldn’t the Pope shut it down?


40 posted on 02/16/2014 7:13:30 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

Feel free to start your own Church and join the thousands of already existing protestant churches. Make yourself the Pope if you want.


41 posted on 02/16/2014 8:50:59 AM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: steve86

Thats very edgy of you. How was high school this week?


42 posted on 02/16/2014 8:51:51 AM PST by escapefromboston (manny ortez: mvp)
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To: escapefromboston

Ah a reference to high school again. Different poster, same insult.


43 posted on 02/16/2014 9:14:08 AM PST by piusv
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To: escapefromboston

No, thanks. I’m a real Catholic.


44 posted on 02/16/2014 9:18:07 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: escapefromboston
Quoting the current Pope's derogatory remarks appears to upset you. I can understand why.
45 posted on 02/16/2014 9:21:25 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: ALPAPilot
In Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104, then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:

The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication.They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment.


In the preface to the French translation of Monsignor Klaus Gamber's most famous book, Die Reform der römischen Liturgie (The Reform of the Roman Rite) then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:

What happened after the Council was altogether different: instead of a liturgy fruit of continuous development, a fabricated liturgy was put in its place. A living growing process was abandoned and the fabrication started. There was no further wish to continue the organic evolution and maturation of the living being throughout the centuries and they were replaced -- as if in a technical production -- by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment. Gamber, with the vigilance of a true visionary and with the fearlessness of a true witness, opposed this falsification and tirelessly taught us the living fullness of a true liturgy, thanks to his incredibly rich knowledge of the sources. As a man who knew and who loved history, he showed us the multiple forms of the evolution and of the path of the liturgy; as a man who saw history from the inside, he saw in this development and in the fruit of this development the intangible reflection of the eternal liturgy, which is not the object of our action, but which may marvelously continue to blossom and to ripen, if we join its mystery intimately.

46 posted on 02/16/2014 10:32:08 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Great post. Thanks!


47 posted on 02/16/2014 10:52:00 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

If Cardinal Ratzinger consistently and over time insisted on labeling the Novus Ordo liturgy a “banal, on the spot fabrication” how can anyone in their right mind criticize those who prefer the Traditional Latin Mass?


48 posted on 02/16/2014 11:02:48 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

I really don’t know. And it’s disappointing that our current Pope is one of those critics.


49 posted on 02/16/2014 11:11:58 AM PST by ebb tide
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To: escapefromboston; piusv
How was high school this week?

Very perceptive of you. Catholic High School, of course. In fact, I am guilty of arrested development (in terms of modernism) at about 1960.

50 posted on 02/16/2014 11:39:53 AM PST by steve86 (Some things aren't really true but you wouldn't be half surprised if they were.)
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