Premillennialism in the Old Testament

Well dear boatbums, just sit tight because the allegory express will no doubt explain away all your worries.

Considering what is said about what the Day of the Lord will bring worldwide, it is rather anticlimatic if it all occurred in 70 AD. And i think Rev. was written after that.

>>>Well dear boatbums, just sit tight because the allegory express will no doubt explain away all your worries.<<<

I see you are still assigned the role of the sniping gatekeeper, Redleg. LOL!

Let's check out boatbums' ONLY reference from the linked article; but I will take the time to put it into context:

"And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee." (Gen 13:14-17 KJV)

There was, however, this condition, or, warning:

"And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." (Gen 17:9 KJV)

Later, the Lord confirmed the covenant with Abraham, and explains why he confirmed it:

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." (Gen 22:17-18 KJV)

Later, Moses confirmed fulfillment in part:

"The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude." (Deu 1:10 KJV)

Much later (1500 years later,) Paul quoted Isaiah, in writing:

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." (Rom 9:27-29 KJV)

Things apparently did not go so well for Israel. Maybe they broke the covenant? We are all aware that Israel broke the first covenant before the "ink was dry." But they were not finished:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them." (Deu 31:16 KJV)

But, a promise is a promise, right? Even if only one side keeps the promise?

Fair enough. Let's see who the seed of Abraham really are. The seed is apparently not these fellows:

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." (Mat 3:7-9 KJV )

And not these:

"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39 KJV)

Then it must be this fellow:

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Gal 3:16 KJV)

And his children:

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29 KJV)

I don't know why so many find those last two verses so difficult to accept. This is Christ's bible, both old and new testaments, and he died to give us the new covenant, which is the new testament.

Anyway, Christians, you are Abraham's seed, and heirs to the promises. Take care that no one steal that away from you.

Philip

Since you did not post any scriptural references to explain yourself; I am going to simply show that the following were the promises to Abraham

Genesis 13:14-15 The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, northward and southward and eastward and westward; for all the land which you see, I will give it to you and to your descendants forever.

I can only assume you purposefully did not quote this part of the promise ... as it is demolishes your position. All the land you see ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ABRAHAM ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ... TO YOU I WILL GIVE IT ... ABRAHAM YOUSELF ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU.

Do you or do you not have ANY cogent analysis that explains in any rational manner how Abrahams descendants possessed the land (as you believe) but Abraham himself did not.

I tire of your arbitrary musings ... I have better things to do.

Boatbums did not quote the reference you mentioned from Genesis but responded to the Jeremiah reference I posted.

You keep quoting that Genesis 17 passage without posting “what” was the covenant. Perhaps you can add that next time you repeat your same response.

I’ll help. It deals with circumcision and has little if anything to do with the mosaic covenant.

Those who imagine these have already been fulfilled will have to somehow explain why the above ETERNAL, UNCONDITIONAL covenants have not happened yet.

Because ...

'forever' doesn't really mean forever ...
'every eye shall see him' doesn't really mean every eye ...
1000 years doesn't really mean 1000 years
coming in the clouds really means judgment
the whole earth really means the whole land

On and on ... ad infinitum ...

It never ends with them.

Said it before and I'll say it again ... preterism is the easiest eschatological system to dispense with, but they scream the loudest.

You omitted 8:37 when you quoted Jesus in John, and He contradicted you, as does Peter later in Acts. The covenants belong to every Jew in every generation until the LORD returns and there is no more preaching or unbelief (Jer 31). Individually they may be broken off for unbelief but the promise is still extant to their children, in perpetuity.
I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

>>>I can only assume you purposefully did not quote this part of the promise ... as it is demolishes your position. All the land you see ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ABRAHAM ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU ... TO YOU I WILL GIVE IT ... ABRAHAM YOUSELF ... I WILL GIVE IT TO YOU.<<<

Actually, I did quote that, and the next two verses in my response in post #23. I believe you are the first person, ever, who has complained that I did not post enough scripture. LOL! But I know you are only doing it to get back at me.

>>>>Do you or do you not have ANY cogent analysis that explains in any rational manner how Abrahams descendants possessed the land (as you believe) but Abraham himself did not.<<<

Well, I wasn't around at that time (nor were you;) but since the Lord Jesus Christ created the world and all things (John 1:3, 10,) I am going to go out on a limb and assume He handled it correctly: both at the time He gave the promises to Abraham (John 8:58,) and at the time He inherited the promises as the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:16.)

As an aside, I am forever thankful that God saved me, thus rendering me a seed of Abraham and an heir according to the promise.

How do you interpret this passage?

"So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem. But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt, Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph." (Acts 7:15-18 KJV)

Does that mean the promise did not take effect until after the children left Egypt, or while they were still in Egypt?

Thanks,

Philip

Good to hear from you again!

>>>You omitted 8:37 when you quoted Jesus in John, and He contradicted you, as does Peter later in Acts.<<<

I omitted later verses, as well. Let's post them all, and see how it pans out:

"I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:37-39 KJV)

You are correct. Jesus began by reminding them they were Abraham's seed. But then it was like he was disowning them from Abraham. Is that correct?

"But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:40-42 KJV)

He seemed to have further disowned them from Abraham.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." (John 8:43-45 KJV)

You see? I really didn't think it necessary to post all that to make my point. After all, Moses had warned Israel 1500 years earlier to hear the words of Christ; and those who didn't and don't hear his words can hardly be considered seeds of the promise:

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:22-23 KJV)

>>>The covenants belong to every Jew in every generation until the LORD returns and there is no more preaching or unbelief (Jer 31). Individually they may be broken off for unbelief but the promise is still extant to their children, in perpetuity.<<<

I'm not buying it unless you have some scripture to back up your opinion. All Jeremiah 31 does is confirm the new covenant--the new testament--which fulfilled the old covenant.

>>>For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.<<

LOL! Speaking of taking things out of context? This is the context:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." (Acts 2:38-41 KJV)

Now I see what you were implying. That is the promise of the new covenant, not the old, as was Jerimiah 31. Our debate on this thread was whether the old covenant was fulfilled, or not. I am on the side that says it was fulfilled in Christ.

That part of Acts happend before the Gentiles were adopted in Acts 10. Since Cornelius was converted, it no longer seems correct to call us Jews and Gentiles since we are one blood.

Philip

>>>’forever’ doesn’t really mean forever ... <<<

As long as “this generation” means “that generation,” you really don’t have a leg to stand on.

Compare my post to #19 and see if makes more sense.

Philip

As long as “this generation” means “that generation,” you really don’t have a leg to stand on.

How exactly do you go about deciding which words or phrases are "allegory", "literal" or figurative? When Jesus was answering his disciples' question as told in Matthew 24:3

Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

He had several different times to explain. The questions were prompted when Jesus was talking about the temple in Jerusalem:

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” (Matt. 24:1,2)

His answers addressed both those present as well as those in the future who would actually experience certain events. You seem to think that ALL the things Jesus foretold happened when Jerusalem was conquered by Titus in 70 A.D., but it was only a partial fulfillment. The whole rest of the chapter is Jesus speaking about the REAL end times - not a partial destruction of the city and the scattering of the Jewish people. A whole lot more things are yet to happen, on a GLOBAL basis that Jesus spoke of here as well as what had already been said by the prophets Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zephaniah, Daniel, and others, as well as John in the NT book, Revelation, and even Peter. I do not see how anyone can logically imagine all the events God said would happen have already happened. If that were so, we would not be even having this conversation right now.

Nonetheless, the doctrines of end-times are not salvific doctrines. Our salvation is not dependent on what we know or believe about the last days. They were, however, given to us so that we can know the "times and seasons" and to be prepared so that they do not overtake us as a thief in the night. None of us knows when the Lord will come for us, so every day should be lived as if it were our last - because, one day, it WILL be. We can respectfully disagree, while not allowing our disagreements to cause dissension or discord. In all things, we should love one another as Christ loved us.

Nothing you write can undo what Jesus said to the Jews who did not believe in him at that point in their lives.

I know that ye are Abraham's seed;

He said it. That settles it. The Jews are Abraham's seed. He will judge every person, not by what they say, but by what they do.

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.

>>>Nothing you write can undo what Jesus said to the Jews who did not believe in him at that point in their lives.<<<

>>>I know that ye are Abraham's seed;<<<

>>>He said it. That settles it. The Jews are Abraham's seed. He will judge every person, not by what they say, but by what they do.<<<

LOL! Okay, that settles it!

How do we resolve statements like these?

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:" (Rom 4:13-14 KJV)

"Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed." (Gal 3:7-8 KJV)

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:26-29 KJV)

Philip

>>>How exactly do you go about deciding which words or phrases are "allegory", "literal" or figurative? When Jesus was answering his disciples' question as told in Matthew 24:3<<<

>>>Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”<<<

>>>He had several different times to explain. The questions were prompted when Jesus was talking about the temple in Jerusalem:<<<

I see where you are coming from. I have heard and read these arguments many, many times. Let me try a different approach so you might see where I am coming from. Let's take this question by the disciples:

"…what shall be the sign of thy coming?"

They did not ask this out of the blue. Jesus had already told them that he would be coming in their lifetimes, in at least two different ways that are written:

"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mat 10:23 KJV)

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28 KJV)

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." (Mark 9:1 KJV)

We also know that Jesus expounded the (old testament) scriptures for them, on occasion, so the disciples could have very well be privy to a lot more understanding of OT prophecies than we can even imagine today. He did say this about it:

"For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." (Matt 13:17)

Now, to the question asking when will be "the end of the age." Jesus had given them numerous statements and parables about the end of the age, or the "age to come." The disciples had been with him for several years. And while there is no evidence to support this, there is also none to deny it; and that is, that there is a very good possibility that the disciples knew the scriptures well enough by that time to understand that when Jesus came in his kingdom, he would necessarily destroy most everything related to the old kingdom, including Jerusalem, Israel and the temple. And they very possibly could have known that his coming would be the fulfillment of certain prophecies that would bring in a new age.

What I am really implying is, while those may seem like three isolated questions, they very well could be two or three highly related events separated by very short periods of time.

>>>I do not see how anyone can logically imagine all the events God said would happen have already happened. If that were so, we would not be even having this conversation right now.<<<

I can't understand why you cannot see that they are all related. The most significant and terrible event in the history of the Judeo-Christian religion is barely a blip on the radar of futurists of every stripe. That makes absolutely no sense to me, and I seriously doubt it ever will.

All O.T prophecy pointed to Jesus, the destruction of Jerusalem and Mosaic law, and the creation of the church, new Jerusalem, on heavenly mount Sion. The temple went from a building, or tents, to actual people and a spiritual realm; and the fact that the Gentiles were brought into the kingdom was the most significant thing that happened, in my opinion, since the Abrahamic covenant. In a very short period of time, God's chosen people went from one race, to all races. And all this happened in the span of about 40 years in the first century. I don't understand why you don't understand.

I believe it all has to do with the time contexts, as I mentioned before. But I don't believe you will see them any other way--that is all you have ever known. From the opposite perspective, I am the same. I knew no escatologies or ideologies, to speak of, until last year. All I had known, until recently, for going on 40 years, was the plain-jane KJV scripture. You think I have it all wrong, and I think you have it all wrong. I don’t see that changing any time soon. LOL!

In the meantime, we can debate our ideas. I have learned new things on this forum because of good, solid questions and posts that have been presented. I have been "forced" to do biblical and historical research to evaluate and "justify" my responses, and I believe I am a better person for it.

Philip

Does that mean the promise did not take effect until after the children left Egypt, or while they were still in Egypt?

You are confusing things a bit. The promise, the effect of the promise, and the fulfillment of the promise are all different things. The promise was given, period. The promise is composed of all the truth statements that God gave Abraham; descendants, nation, blessing, land, etc. When did it take effect? I say when God spoke it to Abraham the Abrahamic covenant took effect immediately in the sense that God gave the promises to Abraham and it was His trustworthiness that would guarantee all the promises in the covenant would eventually be brought to fulfillment.

Given the nature of the promises, doesn't it seem obvious that the fulfillment of the individual promises would occur at distinct points in time ... not all at once?

Obviously they did not possess the land while they were in Egypt right? Did they become a nation before they went into the promised land? Yes, they did. That aspect was certainly fulfilled; them becoming a nation. What about the descendants? That was continuously fulfilled as the nation multiplied ... are Abrahams descendants still multiplying? Yes ...

On to your passage

... But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,

Do you not see that the text you quoted merely hints that the part of the promise given to Abraham dealing with making him a great nation, descendants as the stars ... is mentioned in the passage as beginning to be fulfilled?

Does it not make sense that it would take lots of time for the nation of Israel to emerge from one man; yeah, it took 400+ years for those descendants to multiply lol? Did God not make Abraham a great nation BEFORE any of them even got to the promised land? Jewish history shows that the Abrahamic covenant would be fulfilled in eras ... not all at once. Even your view (all fulfilled in Christ, even the land promise) begs that fulfillment occurs in eras and ages.

My point is that there are AT LEAST two aspects to the Abrahamic covenant that have not been fulfilled completely to this day ... possession of all the land borders promised (we can genuinely argue about that) ... and the possession by Abraham himself (no argument there is possible, Abraham never possessed the land himself).

The Abrahamic covenant awaits its ultimate fulfillment in the future millennial kingdom (as does the Davidic covenant and the New Covenant). It is only the Mosaic covenant that has ceased permanently (Hebrews).

>>>You are confusing things a bit. The promise, the effect of the promise, and the fulfillment of the promise are all different things.<<<

I personally think you are reading way too much into the covenant (s.) The promise was to Abraham and his seed, as in singular: one seed. The new convenant (new testament) tells us that Jesus is that seed, and inherited all the promises. There is nothing you can add to that.

Christ fulfilled the convenant. He inherited all the promises, and all the nations have been blessed by him. Hebrews has a good discussion of the old testament (covenant) vs the new testament (covenant).

>>>Do you not see that the text you quoted merely hints that the part of the promise given to Abraham dealing with making him a great nation, descendants as the stars ... is mentioned in the passage as beginning to be fulfilled?<<<

It says, “…when the time of the promise drew nigh.” Thus the implication that Abraham personally had to take ownership of the land is not supported, biblically. I believe that was part of your question in an earlier post, and that is what I was disputing.

But, as stated earlier, I saw no way the promise could be fulfilled as long as it belonged to the Jews. But once it was given to Christ, and Christ only, then it was available to His children, both Jew and Gentile, and the promise could be fulfilled.

That fulfillment by Christ is also proof that God is no longer a respecter of persons. He was at one time, when the children of Israel were his chosen people. But once he divorced that race (my race,) he adopted all races as his children: those who accept Christ.

>>>My point is that there are AT LEAST two aspects to the Abrahamic covenant that have not been fulfilled completely to this day ... possession of all the land borders promised (we can genuinely argue about that) ... and the possession by Abraham himself (no argument there is possible, Abraham never possessed the land himself).<<<

I quoted Joshua and Nehemiah, who both stated the promises were fulfilled: but you seem to know something they don’t? Sorry, but I am going to have to go with them. I mean, their words are God’s Words.

By the way, your argument that “Abraham never possessed the land himself” seems to be an act of desperation. Both the old and new testaments indicate the promises to Abraham were fulfilled. Why you keep clinging to this Jewish fable in this day and age is most puzzling.

Philip

How do we resolve statements like these?

By not being a preterist, not looking to re-form into yet another new denomination, sect, cult, or heresy out of so many thousands of previous ones. Besides, all the good names are already taken. If you were a Catholic, and just to see an Orthodox approach, I would point you to
1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church
2. the "full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles" (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)
3. a final trial of the Church "in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth." The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.
4. Christ's victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.
As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by "all Israel."
By believing Jesus, Peter, and Paul; there are Jews in every generation who are the seed of Abraham and to whom the covenants apply; some are broken off, yet the seed will continue until the end (not 70 CE/AD) when all Israel shall be saved.
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

>>>As Cardinal Ratzinger recently pointed out (in the context of the message of Fátima), we are not at the end of the world. In fact, the Second Coming (understood as the physical return of Christ) cannot occur until the full number of the Gentiles are converted, followed by "all Israel."<<<

That interpretation is dubious, at best. The Jews were the first Christians, and hold all the "leadership" positions in the heavenly realm. To imply they had no "opportunities," either in the beginning, or since, is just plain wrong.

>>>By believing Jesus, Peter, and Paul; there are Jews in every generation who are the seed of Abraham and to whom the covenants apply; some are broken off, yet the seed will continue until the end (not 70 CE/AD) when all Israel shall be saved.<<<

It doesn't work that way. I posted this earlier on another thread, but a repost seems appropriate here:

His coming was exclusively for the Jewish world: to usher out the old, and bring in the new. If there was an afterthought, it was for the Gentiles, who were not allowed into the kingdom until Act 10, long after Christ was resurrected. But, in reality, all was planned before the foundation of the world.

Christ made the new covenant, in part (or mostly) to take away Israel's sins. Recall this:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:32 KJV)

The key words are, "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord." Paul interpreted it this way:

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Rom 11:24-27 KJV)

But Paul had already defined "all Israel" as "not all Israel:"

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:6-8 KJV)

One would think from that statement that all of Isaac's seed would be considered Israel. But we all know that Jacob, son of Isaac was Israel, and Esau was rejected. That was determined before they were even born. So after explaining all that, Paul asks:

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." (Rom 9:14 KJV)

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Rom 9:15-16 KJV)

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom 9:20-21 KJV)

The destiny of Israel was determined long ago; but not as many believe, or even as many think fair!

"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." (Rom 9:27-29 KJV)

And why only a seed? And why only a remnant?

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Rom 9:31-33 KJV)

Of course, the stumblingstone was the chosen seed, Christ. And unfortunately, most in Jerusalem at that time did not believe Christ was the Lord, and could not even hear his voice. You cannot call on the name of the Lord unless you can hear and believe his words:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? " (Rom 10:13-15 KJV)

But even when they "heard" him directly, they would NOT hear him. If they had heard him or the prophets, they could have been saved. I found that understanding in Isaiah:

"For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." (Isa 28:11-13 KJV)

It was immediately before this:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." (Isa 28:14-18 KJV)

They didn't want to hear. Many still don't. I know.

Philip

One would think from that statement that all of Isaac's seed would be considered Israel. But we all know that Jacob, son of Isaac was Israel, and Esau was rejected.

True, and in every generation all of Jacob's descendants are Israel, up to the point they are broken off. No one knows until his last opportunity to call on the name of the LORD passes away. Jesus', Peter's, and Paul's words are all true, not to mention Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.