Posted on 03/16/2014 6:46:27 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
Besides it being obvious that the GWT judgment is a one time event in which the lost are resurrected to stand before Christ after all lives are done, (Mt. 25:31-46; Rv. 20:11-15) "hour" (hōra) can refer to a time period, as also said in John, "yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. (John 16:2)
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. (Rom 13:11)
And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (Rev 14:15)
And as shown, Rv. gives more detail in clearly stating a 1k difference:
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:5-6)
I understand you dismiss this as your hold all or most all of what Rv. describes already occurred, but which i find in-credible" for reasons i gave, and more.
But lost souls are headed to Hell this instant, and need to be confronted with the gospel of grace, and those who preach a false gospel refuted, as well as atheism challenged, etc.
Daniel, Jesus was speaking to his disciples in John 16:2, and that was fulfilled exactly like he said it would. The same with John 5:25, which reads:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." (John 5:25)
Then Jesus qualifies it with:
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29 KJV)
You will never convince me that "and now is" means 1000 or 2,000 years.
>>>And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. (Rom 13:11)<<<
Paul was "quoting" Jesus. He also prophesied that it would happen very soon: not in 2000 years, or more!
>>>And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (Rev 14:15)<<<
That was the harvest of the children of Israel in A.D. 70 at the end of the old age.
>>>And as shown, Rv. gives more detail in clearly stating a 1k difference: (Revelation 20:5-6) I understand you dismiss this as your hold all or most all of what Rv. describes already occurred, but which i find in-credible" for reasons i gave, and more.<<<
I don't dismiss it, at all. I simply think you have read too much into that one passage, and have ignored countless others that expound the event.
>>>But lost souls are headed to Hell this instant, and need to be confronted with the gospel of grace, and those who preach a false gospel refuted, as well as atheism challenged, etc.<<<
I have been refuting those who preach a false gospel. But they, like the Jews of old, are convinced they have it all figured out.
For example, I was assaulted with all sorts of aspersions and nastiness for simply pointing out that Jesus (clearly) said, on more than one occasion. that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy of Malachi. A Jewish fable has existed since the first century that John was not the fulfillment of Elijah (or, of late, was only part of the fulfillment.) Many Christians have bought into that fable, believing it is the true gospel, thus denying the words of Christ. To make matters worse, all sorts of false prophecies have sprung up around that, and related fables, leading to a massive book industry based on false prophecies of doom and gloom. If that is not "devouring widows houses," I can't imagine what is.
Philip
You just denied 2 resurrections in Jn. 5:29, and it is clear all the saints have not risen from the graves and are sitting in judgment over angels and men.
I believe the first resurrection was all Israel
And as it is, this type of thing takes up too much time from weightier issues.
There is only one resurrection the church is told to look forward to, that being "the resurrection of the just" (Lk. 14:14) which results in the saints receiving their rewards, as hitherto described. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)
If the 1st resurrection occurred already, then so has judgment of believers at judgment seat of Christ, and who take part in the sentencing of the lost and angels, and which is not an ongoing event but happens at the end, when all that will be saved or lost, and there shall be time no longer to be saved. Thus the saints that die now would await that time, a second resurrection and bema seat judgment, but the only resurrection is for the lost, resulting in the GWT judgment of Rv. 20 and the 2nd death, which has not power over those of the 1st resurrection.
, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." (2 Pet 3:7, 10-13 KJV)
I believe he was writing about the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies, and the first resurrection.
Sorry, i see that event as coming far short of what is described, not only in its scope and depth, but in what follows. 70AD was not the type of astronomical calamity Peter and Rv. describe, and the devil is manifestly not bound, among other things, and we certainly do not have a new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. I cannot abide reading the "Jewish earth/world" into the judgement foretold as coming upon the earth/world. 70 AD was a precursor of that, as were many OT events under the day of the Lord which are described using phenomenological language. These saw some degree of fulfilment, but the final day of the Lord is yet to be realized. Fasten your seat belts.
You are trying to justify that
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
means that Lord and the saints will not reign on earth, but remain in Heaven, yet it is much more than grammar that says the contrary. The degree to which so much is spiritualized as already having occurred, or relegated to a local event 2k years ago, i far too much of a stretch for me.
As for the grammar, despite your efforts, all i see this as supporting is that believers shall be with the Lord, which is not in dispute. But the issue is where the Lord shall be. And i see far too many texts referring to literal world wide events and a type of regeneration of the earth in which the Heavenly City comes down for the saints dwell in it.
Meanwhile, whatever eschatology is right, believers must be about the Master's business, seeking first His kingdom and righteousness, although often its coming is set forth as the goal of such and terminus for such seeking, and futurist eschatology was a viable evangelistic aspect in Scripture.
LOL! Clever. I don't know exactly how it fits, but it is still clever.
Forgot about that. It fits because the RC gospel (see more briefly on FR here ) begins by actually becoming good enough in heart ("infused" charity) to be formally justified by God, thru the act itself of baptism (sprinkling), thus even baptism by an unbeliever ("intending to do what the church does" -even if they may not*) and upon a morally incognizant soul can effect it.
Thus the salvation process usually culminates in becoming good enough (moral perfection) - and atoning for sins - in RC purgatory (which even the EOS reject) to enter Heaven, thru through fire and torments or purifying punishments commencing at death.
And thus she creates an artificial classification btwn believers, that of "saints" which go directly to glory due to their holiness - and from which type may come excess merits which Rome dispenses from her Treasury of Merit via her sacraments, and who can unscripturally prayed to - and non-saint believers, despite the fact that Scripture uses the word saint to refer to all believers in general. (Rm. 15:25; 2Cor. 1:1; 9:1 Eph 1:1; 2:19; 4:12; (Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:4) . (Rm. 15:25; 2Cor. 1:1; 9:1 Eph 1:1; 2:19; 4:12; (Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:4)
However, wherever Scripture manifestly speaks of the postmortem place or condition believers then it is with the Lord, (2Cor. 5:6,8; Phil. 1:21-23; cf. Lk. 16:19-31; 23:43; Acts 7:59; Heb. 13:23; Rv. 6:9.10) in whose presence is fulness of joy, (Ps. 16:11) even if not yet perfect, (Phil. 3:12) as would all the Thessalonian believers if the Lord had returned in their lifetime. (1Thes. 4:17) In the latter case it must be assumed that all the Thessalonian believers - and thus all believers as this certainly applies to all - had attained moral perfection, unless by faith the unGodly is justified by faith, which is accounted for righteousness, (Rm. 4) being washed, justified and sanctified (1Cor. 6:11) as regenerated souls, new creations.
And which thus characteristically seek to practically be what he positionally is, to live out that imputed holiness without which no man shall see the Lord, evidencing "things which accompany salvation." (Heb. 6:9) But which is not the cause of his justification, which is on Christ's expense and merit, not his own, and appropriated by faith.
* A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse) what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic [trinitarian, water] be employed. - . [Apostolicae Curae 33
I did not try to convince you that John 5:25 refers to the future, as clear it does not, yet does not mention the lost as hearing His voice here, for as seen elsewhere in John, there is parallelism going on here, with the distinction being btwn living souls who are spiritually dead hearing His voice and being made alive, versus those in the graves hearing his voice and being rewarded or damned.
This speaks of bodily resurrection, souls being judged for what they did in their body, and which is a one time event for believers and for the lost, respectively.
Paul was "quoting" Jesus. He also prophesied that it would happen very soon: not in 2000 years, or more!
They did believe the Lord would come soon, but which would mean the whole church would go to be with the Lord, and thus since 70AD there has been no church.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
That was the harvest of the children of Israel in A.D. 70 at the end of the old age.
It cannot be, for besides the other anticlimatic aspects of lack of fulfillment, the harvest of the earth cannot be ripe until the last soul to be damned lives his life.
I don't dismiss it, at all. I simply think you have read too much into that one passage, and have ignored countless others that expound the event.
My judgment likewise.
I have been refuting those who preach a false gospel. But they, like the Jews of old, are convinced they have it all figured out. For example, I was assaulted with all sorts of aspersions and nastiness for simply pointing out that Jesus (clearly) said, on more than one occasion. that John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the Elijah prophecy of Malachi.
If you think this interpretation, that John fulfilled it spiritually, but a literal fulfillment of Elijah being one the two witnesses is possible, constitutes a false gospel, then that is cultic.
To make matters worse, all sorts of false prophecies have sprung up around that, and related fables, leading to a massive book industry based on false prophecies of doom and gloom. If that is not "devouring widows houses," I can't imagine what is.
I agree that many, including entire ministries, are off on a tangent, but that itself does not necessarily mean they are preaching a false message of salvation. In which one comes before an infinitely holy and perfectly just God as a contrite damned + destitute sinner in desperate need of salvation, and who can only look for the mercy of God in the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting the risen Son of God to save by His sinless shed blood and righteousness, and thus is baptized and follows Him.
However, i see the anticlimatic nature of the 70AD position and the spiritualization of so much of Scripture as militating against warnings of future punishment as being what they most naturally convey, and being akin to annihilationism. If all the dire apocalyptic warnings and descriptions of judgment to come upon the world was realized in some local event 2k years ago, the it is easy to minimize the warnings of eternal torment of the wicked.
They didn’t miss it. They were part of it. Did you ever wonder why there are no eyewitness, or post-destruction reports by Christians?...I believe all Jewish Christians were resurrected around 70 AD,
You may as well wonder why no real history is recorded after Acts 28, including the death of Paul or any of the other apostles. Paul does allude to severe judgment upon the Jews in saying, "the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." (1 Thessalonians 2:16) and the church was persecuted, and exampling the faith we need today, of them it was said, "and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. (Hebrews 10:34)
However, we have zero details and description of how wrath is come upon the Jews to the uttermost, or of how the church was persecuted after Acts 28, except that their faith was sorely tried and Paul and some others were in prison.
For more details we can look to tradition, though not as Scripture. Regarding which, i see,
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).
Irenaeus (A.D. 180) said to be a student of Polycarp who was said to be a disciple of the apostle John), dates Revelation near the end of Domitian’s reign, who died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus and does not indicate any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) writes
that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” whom Eusebius identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian. Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,
In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9). - https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written
More .
Of course, the preterists have their arguments in the debate, a prime one being that the temple is still standing. Thus i suppose the futurists must look for a rebuilt temple, in which the antiChrist shall stand, not simply some soldiers with dagon on their uniform (as i recall this being the argument).
I believe all Jewish Christians were resurrected around 70 AD, on schedule, as promised by Christ on multiple occasions, and in many different ways. I also believe that fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel’s partial resurrection of “his” people: the children of Israel.
But this is utterly invalid, as the body of Christ is the church, married to Christ, and it cannot be divided into two sections, Jews and Gentiles, which is just what Paul reproved, nor is the second coming of Christ described as being for just some believers.
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (Ephesians 2:17-18)
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. (Ephesians 5:23)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)
And writing to both Jews and Gentiles they are both told to look for the coming of the Lord and gathering unto Him, and with the resurrection being bodily, and a separate Jewish resurrection is simply untenable. More spiritualization will not help.
Parallelism? I don’t know what that means, but I think I see what you are talking about. You are saying that the first part refers to the "living" who are spiritually dead with sins, but become spiritually alive. The second refers to the resurrection of the dead. Is that what you are saying?
>>>They did believe the Lord would come soon, but which would mean the whole church would go to be with the Lord, and thus since 70AD there has been no church.<<<
That is not what it means, at all. Not even close. The elect were resurrected in 70 AD, and the elect were only from the children of Israel. There were no other "elect." Daniel spoke of them, as well as Jesus and every apostle, including John in the Revelation. John called them "redeemed from among men," and "the firstfruits to God and Jesus" (Rev 14:4.)
>>>It cannot be, for besides the other anticlimatic aspects of lack of fulfillment, the harvest of the earth cannot be ripe until the last soul to be damned lives his life.<<<
Well, it happened. That may not be the way you have been taught; but it happened at the end of the Mosaic Age, on that "earth." Your notion that the deaths of 1.1 million Jews by sword and famine, the complete destruction of Jerusalem, and the resurrection of the elect from the "four winds" was anticlimactic can only mean that you were not there, or the endless stream of "Antichrist of the Week" false prophecies has darkened your soul.
>>>If you think this interpretation, that John fulfilled it spiritually, but a literal fulfillment of Elijah being one the two witnesses is possible, constitutes a false gospel, then that is cultic.<<<
I will only agree that any belief contrary to the plain words of Jesus can only come from a cult. Jesus was crystal clear that John fulfilled Malachi. Cults tend to explain away the words of Christ and/or his divinity in order to make them fit some imaginary scheme; for example, a future earthly kingdom, complete with animal sacrifices? I cannot imagine anything more insulting to Christ and the blood he shed for us, except maybe fallen or fake Christians to allow or encourage Judaizers, with their Jewish fables, to influence other Christians.
>>>I agree that many, including entire ministries, are off on a tangent, but that itself does not necessarily mean they are preaching a false message of salvation. In which one comes before an infinitely holy and perfectly just God as a contrite damned + destitute sinner in desperate need of salvation, and who can only look for the mercy of God in the Lord Jesus Christ, trusting the risen Son of God to save by His sinless shed blood and righteousness, and thus is baptized and follows Him…. However, i see the anticlimatic nature of the 70AD position and the spiritualization of so much of Scripture as militating against warnings of future punishment as being what they most naturally convey, and being akin to annihilationism. If all the dire apocalyptic warnings and descriptions of judgment to come upon the world was realized in some local event 2k years ago, the it is easy to minimize the warnings of eternal torment of the wicked.<<<
Spiritualization? Like "this generation," or "two Elijahs?" How about animal sacrifices, but not as a sin offering, but as a memorial? LOL!
How long do you think animal life will exist after all green grass is burnt up? (Rev 8:7) What do we eat then, the remaining canned food? How long do you think that will last?
Of course, we would still eat the fish in the sea. But when that great mountain falls into the sea, and kills a third part of the creatures in the sea, how much land area will escape the massive tidal wave? (Rev 8:8-9) If it kills a third part of sea life, and a third part of the ships are destroyed, it would have to be one massive mountain. I would also suspect it would make fishing somewhat more difficult.
When that great star falls from heaven to the earth, that should end all life on earth, and even the earth itself, right? (Rev 8:10)
Then how can there still be remaining any "inhabiters" of the earth? (Rev 8:13) They must truly be a hardy bunch. LOL!
You have to be kidding, if not me, most certainly yourself. Maybe Christ will consider favourably your false belief that his coming in 70 AD was anticlimactic. I won't speculate on how he might feel about the remainder of your teachings.
Philip
Re: John 5:25, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” (John 5:25)
This indeed has happened, but this also doesn’t identify the event with the first resurrection. Until the Perfect Sacrifice was made, those souls in Paradise were still in Hades, not Heaven. They also didn’t have a resurrection body at that time. The anthropology of man is body, soul, and spirit. The volition is associated with the soul. Being made alive is also a regeneration of the soul and human spirit.
Try reading the scripture, rather than word searching and then taking the located verses and using them out of context.
May as well. Like I said, there is none, except in the book of the Revelation; and that is all imagery, useful only to the intended audience directly mentioned in the book.
>>>Paul does allude to severe judgment upon the Jews in saying, "the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." (1 Thessalonians 2:16) and the church was persecuted…<<<<
This is the passage, in context:
"For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." (1 Th 2:14-16 KJV)
Those were some very nasty people. Notice they killed their own prophets, as the Lord also stated in some of his prophecies in the gospels, and was stated in the Acts:
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Mat 23:34-36 KJV)
"I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:49-51 KJV)
"Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:" (Acts 7:52 KJV)
>>>However, we have zero details and description of how wrath is come upon the Jews to the uttermost<<<
Oh , yes we do. This is John in the Revelation, showing the fulfillment of Jesus' words:
"For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." (Rev 16:6 KJV)
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6 KJV)
"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." (Rev 18:20 KJV)
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24 KJV)
Unless there is a whole new batch of holy apostles and prophets in the future, and unless we ignore the fact that all righteous blood was required of Jerusalem, the great city Babylon the Great in the book of the Revelation was Jerusalem, which was destroyed in A.D. 70, exactly as predicted by Jesus.
Another way to know the "great city" Babylon was Jerusalem, is to examine the city were the two witnesses were killed:
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)
>>>… or of how the church was persecuted after Acts 28, except that their faith was sorely tried and Paul and some others were in prison.<<<
The Revelation provides some detail on the persecution of the Church, who are generally called "the saints" after chapter 3. The Roman Empire was considered the whole world in those days. The beast, who was Emperor Nero during much of the book, began a persecution of Christians that lasted 3 1/2 years (forty and two months,) and ended only with his suicide in 68 AD. He considered himself a god, and the punishment for not treating him like a god was severe. Formal temples for the emperor had been erected as far back as Augustus' reign; and the senate had a statue of Nero erected in the temple of Mars:
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Rev 13:7-8 KJV)
"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." (Rev 13:5 KJV)
>>>For more details we can look to tradition, though not as Scripture. Regarding which, i see, … Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:<<<
>>>When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).<<<
Was that Caesar Domitian, or Caesar Domitius? The reason I asked is John would have been 90-95 years old under Domitian, and it seems a little strange that he would be sentenced to hard labor in the mines at that age. But under Ceasar Domitius (Nero) he would have only been in his 60's. Victorinus, like all other late-date authorities, derived their information on John from a inconclusive statement by Irenaeus. It is also worth noting that Victorinus was the first historian to acknowledge Irenaeus' statement, and that was about a century later than Irenaeus' book, that was about a century after the destruction of Jerusalem. That is a century after the fact on the initial declaration, and two centuries before the first acknowledgement.
>>>Irenaeus (A.D. 180) said to be a student of Polycarp who was said to be a disciple of the apostle John), dates Revelation near the end of Domitian’s reign, who died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus and does not indicate any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.<<<
This is the statement by Irenaeus that all "late-date" authorities rely on:
"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign." [Vol 1, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V.30.3]
However, two paragraphs earlier, a vision [as generally interpreted] that was supposedly seen in "almost in our day," had somehow produced "ancient copies of the original book" written about the vision:
"Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; [Vol 1, Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V.30.1]
Something does not add up. The famous historian, Moses Stuart wrote in his Commentary on the Apocalypse, Vol I, 1845:
"If now the number of the witnesses were the only thing which should control our judgment in relation to the question proposed, we must, so far as external evidence is concerned, yield the palm to those who fix upon the time of Domitian. But a careful examination of this matter shows, that the whole concatenation of witnesses in favour of this position hangs upon the testimony of Irenaeus, and their evidence is little more than a mere repetition of what he has said. Eusebius and Jerome most plainly depend on him; and others seem to have had in view his authority, or else that of Eusebius." [pp.269]
"John lived through both persecutions. He may have been banished during both. It is not at all improbable that he was, considering his authority and influence at Ephesus, the Roman capital of Asia Minor. Of course it was easy, a century afterwards, to confound the two periods, as to such events as might have happened under either. The most lively and impressive recollections of Irenaeus's times, would be those of the nearest persecution. It was easy and natural for Irenaeus, then, to attribute to the latter the writing of the Apocalypse, provided no certain tradition had fixed it earlier. Irenaeus was at Lyons when he wrote his book on Heresies; and this was far away from the centre of early ecclesiastical traditions. Without impeaching, then, his character or his credit, we may still believe that his exegesis of Rev. 1: 9 was not correct. We can scarcely be authorized to attribute to him any nice critical investigations in respect to the Apocalypse. The opinions which he gives, in some passages of his works, respecting the meaning of that book, forbid us to do so. "Salva Jide," then, we may suppose him in this case to have been honest, but mistaken in his opinion." (pp.282)
"After the view of ancient testimony which has been given above, it is almost superfluous to repeat, that all succeeding writers hang upon Irenaeus as their support. The testimony in respect to the matter before us is evidently successive and dependent, not coetaneous and independent. We may safely follow then the plain and unequivocal evidences of the time when the Apocalypse was written, which are contained within the book itself, and have already been exhibited in the preceding pages. No other evidence can do away the force of the author's own declarations." (pp.282)
>>>Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) writes … that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” whom Eusebius identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian. Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time."<<<
I believe Paul referred to himself as an old man, when he was no more than in his 60's. But it means nothing unless we have an age, and we don't.
>>>Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said, … In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9). - https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written<<<
Again, as professor Stuart explains, all of those early historians, and others, followed the bandwagon of Irenaeus, and are therefore unreliable as historical witnesses in this matter.
>>>More . Of course, the preterists have their arguments in the debate, a prime one being that the temple is still standing. Thus i suppose the futurists must look for a rebuilt temple, in which the antiChrist shall stand, not simply some soldiers with dagon on their uniform (as i recall this being the argument).<<<
I don't necessarily use that argument, but it is one more argument to consider. It is especially useful against those who claim there will be a third temple, since there is not one word of about a third temple in the entire new testament, except for holy temple in heaven and the temple of our body; and there are no clearly distinguishable prophecies in the old testament that have not produced more interpretations than interpreters (e.g., Eze 40-48.)
>>>But this is utterly invalid, as the body of Christ is the church, married to Christ, and it cannot be divided into two sections, Jews and Gentiles, which is just what Paul reproved, nor is the second coming of Christ described as being for just some believers.<<<
I, personally, have never said the church was divided. What I did say was that those of the first resurrection were all Jews, as Daniel stated in Dan 12; and they serve as foundations and servants of our faith. See if you believe these are all Jews:
"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye [his disciples] which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28 KJV)
"…Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Rev 7:3-4 KJV)
"Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God . . . And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel . . . And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Rev 21:9-10, 12, 14 KJV)
"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Eph 2:19-22 KJV)
That covers all the "foundations," "gates," and "leadership positions" of the Church and the holy temple. Additionally all his servants are from the twelve tribes; and his disciples sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes. There is not a single Gentile mentioned.
>>>And writing to both Jews and Gentiles they are both told to look for the coming of the Lord and gathering unto Him, and with the resurrection being bodily, and a separate Jewish resurrection is simply untenable.<<<
Where does it say that?
>>>More spiritualization will not help.<<<
I agree. Ignore that last question. You may have to spiritualize it, as well.
Philip
>>>Try reading the scripture, rather than word searching and then taking the located verses and using them out of context.<<<
I would recommend the same to you, but you have it all figured out, don’t you?
>>>This (John 5:25) indeed has happened, but this also doesn’t identify the event with the first resurrection. Until the Perfect Sacrifice was made, those souls in Paradise were still in Hades, not Heaven. They also didn’t have a resurrection body at that time. The anthropology of man is body, soul, and spirit. The volition is associated with the soul. Being made alive is also a regeneration of the soul and human spirit.<<<
That is a reasonable interpretation.
Philip
but you have it all figured out, don’t you?
By the grace of God, the important parts.
got a link to those guys you cite?
Source?
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
…means that Lord and the saints will not reign on earth, but remain in Heaven, yet it is much more than grammar that says the contrary. The degree to which so much is spiritualized as already having occurred, or relegated to a local event 2k years ago, i far too much of a stretch for me
.<<<It may be a stretch to fit it into your eschatology, but the Greek grammar fits. It also fits the scriptural descriptions of the holy city and holy temple, as well as the reign of Revelation 20; that is, unless you add a "while physically on earth" clause after the word, reign. Then it would fit your interpretation.
>>>As for the grammar, despite your efforts, all i see this as supporting is that believers shall be with the Lord, which is not in dispute. But the issue is where the Lord shall be. And i see far too many texts referring to literal world wide events and a type of regeneration of the earth in which the Heavenly City comes down for the saints dwell in it.<<<
But the heavenly city sits on a great and high mountain; and I don't mean a small hill like Mount Everest. The city itself is about 1500 miles square, and 1500 miles in height (you do take the words of the book of the Revelation literally, don't you?) That would cover a big chunk of the United States. It would not fit anywhere in the Middle East. To see the Lord would be a virtually impossible hike up that enormous mountain for all but the most physically fit. And once inside, think of the logistics of just getting around that huge structure. If you enter in the east gate, and the Lord is in the center, you still have over 700 miles to go, and that assumes he is on the first floor. What if he is on floor number 2,352,122? LOL! (sorry, I couldn't resist.)
Is there any hope that you will ever see how ridiculous your interpretation of Revelation really is? Even if not, there is always this hard nut you have to crack:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." (John 16:7-11 KJV)
Now, that is righteousness!
>>>Meanwhile, whatever eschatology is right, believers must be about the Master's business, seeking first His kingdom and righteousness, although often its coming is set forth as the goal of such and terminus for such seeking, and futurist eschatology was a viable evangelistic aspect in Scripture.<<<
I think I agree…
Philip
John William Burgon, “Plain Commentary on The Four Holy Gospels Vol I” (Matthew Mark,) 1855
James Stuart Russell, “The Parousia,” 1878
Matthew Henry, “Commentary on the Whole Bible Volume V (Matthew to John),” 1721
Albert Barnes, “Barnes New Testament Notes,” 1949
John Gill, “John Gill’s New Testament Commentary,” [1700’s]
Nor in your reality. Babylon the great was destroyed in 70 AD, and immediately thereafter Satan was bound. The reason we know Satan was bound at that time is because that was the time of the First Resurrection of 70AD, exactly on schedule from the prophecies of Jesus, and as written in Revelation 20.
The reason we know that Babylon the Great was destroyed in 70 AD is the reason given for the vengeance: the blood of the apostles, prophets, saints and the righteous, in general. Jerusalem was responsible for ALL THE BLOOD of all the prophets, apostles, and all righteous in general. So was Babylon the Great in the Revelation.
It is simply illogical to believe they are not the same.
This was the blood on Babylon the Great’s hands:
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, Babylon)
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, Babylon)
“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, Babylon)
This was the blood on Jerusalem’s hands:
"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!" (Luk 13:33-34, Jerusalem)
". . . I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:49-51, Jerusalem)
"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22, Jerusalem)
Both were responsible for the SAME blood of the prophets, apostles and all righteous blood; and both were destroyed as vengeance for the SAME BLOOD! Both cities also committed whoredom:
“For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.” (Rev 19:2, Babylon)
"Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,…Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord: Thus saith the Lord God; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.” (Ezekiel 16:2, 35-38, Jerusalem. There are many references to Jerusalem's and Israel's whoredoms.)
Both cities were made desolate:
“… for in one hour is she made desolate.” (Rev 18:19, Babylon)
“Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate.” (Jer 7:34)
Compare the last verse with this one in the Revelation referencing Babylon the Great and the bridegroom/bride:
“And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee . . .And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee:” (Rev 18:23-24)
Both also lost the voice of the bridegroom and the bride. That can only be Jerusalem.
Philip
Why do you believe the calamities were "world wide?" World-wide in the days of Christ meant the Roman Empire. Sometimes "all the earth" meant a nation, or a smaller area:
"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed." (Luke 2:1 KJV)
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Mat 24:14 KJV)
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Mat 28:18-20 KJV)
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15 KJV)
"And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar." (Acts 11:28 KJV)
"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Rom 1:8 KJV)
"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Rom 10:17-18 KJV)
"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:" (Col 1:5-6 KJV)
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col 1:23 KJV)
And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
"And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart." (1 Kin 10:24 KJV)
Philip
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